The Perils of Meditation

[lifeforce]

Please be careful. Some meditation techniques are not for everyone. This is a truly awful story.

 

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/06/york_county_suicide_megan_vogt.html

[Miffymog]

I went on one silent retreat where the topic was the koan 'what is this?' It just didn't work for me and I had to leave half way through. A few years later I went on another retreat where the meditation was  'Silent Illumination', I stayed for the whole duration and made good progress.

 

The difference is that for the first retreat I did not have an established practice before but with the second one I'd already been using 'Silent Illumination' for about a year so I knew that I liked it and that it worked for me.

 

It can be worth testing the water before you step into what can be a very challenging experience.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Miffymog

[lifeforce]

Hi Miffymog, I certainly agree with you there.

I had formal instruction at a Theravada monastery about 10 years ago now. It was a practice I was very passionate about at the time. The Abbott and the rest of the Sangha were very helpful.

A few months of regular, daily practice and I was a changed man. I had gone from a happy, outgoing, loving person, to a cold, mechanical and emotionless robot. It took me ages to pull myself around and this put me off meditation altogether. 

When I eventually plucked up the courage to try meditation again, I found that more heart-centred practices were better suited to me as I found out after practicing mantra and also silent Sufi group meditation.

Edited July 6, 2017 by lifeforce

[Edward M]

Thanks for posting!  This is close to home, I've experienced very similar, although not retreat triggered.  

 

Just sitting quietly and getting used to being still naturally is a good state to be used to before anything like that.  Otherwise your inner world when wide open is very foreign and very scary.  

 

It doesn't say what anti anxiety medicine she was on... when I took paxil/seroxat I'd get ridiculously high from meditation, danger level.  That's a variable to take into account.

 

It's possible she touched upon a higher plane briefly and then couldn't remember it but knew it happened, and that's where the psychosis started.  Those pharmaceutical meds are strong! 

 

 

 

Very sad for her and family, meditation definitely isn't one size fits all.

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Edward M

[RiverSnake]

Spontaneous awakenings without the proper practical foundation to support and integrate such experiences can be a truly devastating affair. People whom have no experience with meditation should not immediately throw themselves into such an intensive form of praxis. 

 

Moderation in all things. For some people 4 hrs a day of meditation can be moderate...for others 20 minutes a day is moderate. Don't jump in the car for the first time and go 200 mph. Working oneself up to certain levels of intensity one step at a time is the safest route. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by OldSaint

[bax44]

Not to discount the  possibility of meditation dangers-but they only reveal about 3/4 through the article that she was on some pretty heavy anti anxiety medications-in and of themselves have driven people to pretty rough mental territory. Perhaps the combination of intense practice and these medications dont go well together.

Edited July 6, 2017 by bax44

[liminal_luke]

Meditation, especially when practiced in an extreme way by beginners, can be dangerous.  Sometimes I think these warnings get overstated though, and might needlessly scare people off.  Along with the perils of meditation, we need to consider the perils of avoiding meditation.

[bax44]

I mean people can die crossing the street. I guess they could write an article about the dangers of crossing the street when someone gets hit by a bus, but that doesnt happen. It strikes me as odd, especially as I said how they failed to acknowledge until almost the end of the article that she had been on heavy duty psychological meds and had recently stopped them before the retreat. Gee I wonder if that may have been a big part of it. Seems disingenous to approach the story the way the writer did.

[thelerner]

3 hours ago, bax44 said:

Not to discount the  possibility of meditation dangers-but they only reveal about 3/4 through the article that she was on some pretty heavy anti anxiety medications-in and of themselves have driven people to pretty rough mental territory. Perhaps the combination of intense practice and these medications dont go well together.

Or perhaps the combination of intense practice and not taking anti-anxiety meds didn't go together very well.

 

Bad combination, person with little experience doing an intensive.  Plus anyone doing an intensive when they're not in a state of equanimity. 

 

I looked on her Facebook page and an article or two on her.  She seemed like a very nice, sincere, quiet person.  My condolences to her friends and family. 

Like bax44 I hope this doesn't turn into a meditation witch hunt. 

[lifeforce]

Unfortunately this isn't an isolated incident. A quick search brings up some more vipassana horror stories.

Edited July 6, 2017 by lifeforce

[Aaron]

Doctors know that pharmaceuticals can alter the brain chemistry and cause psychotic episodes, long term psychosis, depression, anxiety, and the list goes on, well meditation also alters the brain chemistry, albeit not with the use of drugs. I think that in many cases people are susceptible to these side effects because of their own mental health at the time of the experience. If you have anxiety or depression and you begin to meditate, it opens your mind to the depths of that anxiety and depression and can overwhelm you. If you've been able to suppress paranoid and delusional thoughts through impulse control, meditation can reduce that impulse control and in fact is supposed to reduce it, allowing for one to begin to experience these ideas and thoughts and making it hard for them to stop once the meditation is over, especially if one is encouraged to continue and work through the experience. If you have seriously disturbing thoughts while meditating, STOP IMMEDIATELY and seek psychiatric help.  

 

I never recommend that people suffering from severe mental illness, depression, anxiety, or other mental disorders practice any extreme form of meditation. Relaxation is one thing, but nothing like a retreat. Most retreats wont even allow someone with a diagnosis to attend for this very reason. Be wise and knowledgeable. Don't encourage people who have issues with reality to experience something that can change that perception in a way they might not be able to handle. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Aaron

[blue eyed snake]

32 minutes ago, Aaron said:

Doctors know that pharmaceuticals can alter the brain chemistry and cause psychotic episodes, long term psychosis, depression, anxiety, and the list goes on, well meditation also alters the brain chemistry, albeit not with the use of drugs. I think that in many cases people are susceptible to these side effects because of their own mental health at the time of the experience. If you have anxiety or depression and you begin to meditate, it opens your mind to the depths of that anxiety and depression and can overwhelm you. If you've been able to suppress paranoid and delusional thoughts through impulse control, meditation can reduce that impulse control and in fact is supposed to reduce it, allowing for one to begin to experience these ideas and thoughts and making it hard for them to stop once the meditation is over, especially if one is encouraged to continue and work through the experience. If you have seriously disturbing thoughts while meditating, STOP IMMEDIATELY and seek psychiatric help.  

 

I never recommend that people suffering from severe mental illness, depression, anxiety, or other mental disorders practice any extreme form of meditation. Relaxation is one thing, but nothing like a retreat. Most retreats wont even allow someone with a diagnosis to attend for this very reason. Be wise and knowledgeable. Don't encourage people who have issues with reality to experience something that can change that perception in a way they might not be able to handle. 

 

worthy of repeating

[dwai]

People with psychological problems should not meditate. They should work with a mental-health professional to resolve their issues first.

[blue eyed snake]

well...thats a bit too black and white for my taste.

 

mental health professionals are not the answer even though they can be helpful and some of them are very good. 

 

I would say that meditating is allright for people who are err...psychologically unstable...but very carefully, to start with 5 minutes daily. and maybe not even every day. With someone ( that mentioned professional) that they can talk to and be taken serious.

 

But this is again a very sad story, to me it's unresponsible from the persons who were leading this retreat, someone like that should never have been admitted. It's very sad really.

[thursday]

Having been diagnosed with schizophrenia in the past and a pretty severe case of it at the time, I can see how some "techniques" are not good. I don't know about this particular case, but having a teacher to support you is always better imho.. Retreats, although I have never been on one, seem too generalized for beginners to pick up on. People might lose interest trying, and worse would be like in the article  .. Without a solid foundation with meditation and support from a teacher, it also seems like a bad idea to taper off meds. Quitting meds cold turkey can be life threatening too.. Methinks, people should always consult with their psych and family first, have a plan. They will hold you back, but finding a common ground/agreement can be a good safety net and starting point for tapering off. Offtopic sorry..

[silent thunder]

While my practice and my process have cultivated an abiding peace, love and nurturing.  The process is cyclical and often, far from pleasant.

 

They are saturated in the pain of the stripping away of assumptions, presumptions, projections and illusory beliefs.

 

This quote resonates deeply with my process.

 

"Enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing through the facade of pretence. It's the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true."

~Asyashanti

[Aaron]

I've seen very few cases where meditation has eliminated the need for medication with someone suffering from a chemical imbalance in the brain resulting in a mental illness such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. With that said, what meditation can do is help with some of the symptoms associated with mental illness, such as anxiety and depression, but keep in mind that the type of meditation used is different than Vipissana and other more intense forms of meditation. In therapy they normally teach meditation techniques that help people focus from distraction or relax, it's not intended to bring enlightenment, but rather relief from symptoms. 

 

When one suffers from mental illness, especially if they're experiencing psychosis, depression, anxiety, or other severe symptoms, practicing Vipissana, The Secret of the Golden Flower, or other intense meditation practices can do more harm than good. In fact it was common practice to not teach The Secret of the Golden Flower to people exhibiting these symptoms. This isn't something modern medicine has just figured out, but something that's been taught for a very long time. 

 

What I recommend isn't the exclusion of meditation for people suffering from mental illness, but rather the wisdom to know what will help them and what will harm them. 

Edited July 8, 2017 by Aaron

[thursday]

Aaron, I often wonder about that.. I don't think I see mental illness as a fixed thing, nor do I necessarily believe in a chemical imbalance or that it needs to be fixed. These "symptoms" I call them, were/are my karma and just like everyone else, I have to exert some self control or otherwise I can get in to trouble.

 

Maybe you don't believe me based on your own experiences, just as some people over here (3D) don't believe I was that far gone. Likely I'm still not fully healed, but that goes for everyone, otherwise we'd all be enlightened masters. So where do we draw the line: what is mental illness and what is just a "normal" mental health?

 

I have heard from hearsay and other people online in the past, quite a few, that they were able to heal too. Even my psych said that reports/studies are coming in that people can heal from these more serious mental disorders. Psychiatry itself is changing too, as more people have trouble with their mental health these days, there's less room for long term hospitalisation and they are forced to look for other ways to help people pick up their lives. Surely with medication too, but think there's a subtle change going on..

 

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by thursday

[Aeran]

Tragic

 

 I honestly think a serious look needs to be taken at the whole "10 day silent vipassana retreat" industry. I've heard multiple accounts, both in person, online and in the media, of people who've had similar breakdowns on or after these retreats. There needs to be a serious discussion about the risks of putting people in such intensive situations, especially people who lack serious pre-existing meditation experience or who are dealing with some kind of psychological instability, as well as the culture that seems to be fostered at these retreats and by those who attend them.

 

Fortunately there seems to finally be some work being done on the potential negative side effects of meditation practice, so hopefully that will extend to these retreats in the near future, since they seem to be a particularly egregious example of a situation which sets off these problems in a dramatic and dangerous manner.

 

[Gerard]

What happens you open suddenly a pressure cooker?

 

The same with anything else.

 

Note: Goenka? No walking meditation, only sitting? ---> stay clear. Completely imbalanced, out of touch with reality due to the nature of our modern world. Ossified. This is the main problem of the Theravada tradition and Buddhist practice (not philosophy, different thing) in general.

 

 

[Fa Xin]

Mmmm. Good thread.

 

Who would've thought, sitting quietly could be so dangerous?

 

As for the 10 day meditation retreats, where they take your phone and forbid you to talk....

...not for me ! I'll pass, thanks.  Sounds like punishment.

In all seriousness, I've known people who love them and can probably use the quiet / vacation from the "world".

 

I disagree about the Mindfulness Apps... 

...yes mindfulness is a life style and the whole fast food vibe of meditation is a bit sickening.

But everyone has to start somewhere, maybe that is the dharma reaching out to those who are 'far away' in their minds.

[Fa Xin]

2 hours ago, shredem said:

How is it dangerous?

Was this for me?

 

My comment was tongue in cheek, because sitting quietly should not be dangerous. 

 

Sounds like a zen koan. 

"What is the danger in sitting quietly?"

[RiverSnake]

It bares mentioning that IME Zazen is perhaps one of the most stable practices i have ever experienced. By stable i mean that you can do it for very long periods of time without excessive detoxing or core shifts occurring. In fact it gives a very relaxing, refreshing and therapeutic effect. Very hard to overdo it. 

 

On the other hand when you get into other practices that start to go into the energy body, make core shifts and stimulate flows....this can be a challenging process that will require a period of integration. Furthermore making "shifts" in a haphazard and intuitively retarded way where you play wackamole with your vehicle.....not a good idea at all.....and can cause all manner of problems. 

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

hm, an acquaintance of mine started to do zenmeditation, group was led by a teacher and there was a sort of promise that people who would become unnerved by what was happening could have a talk with the teacher.

 

Well, she did become ' innerved, she got anxietyattacks. the real ones with much sweating, heartrate much too high and hyperventilationlike breathing. Not only during/after sitting but the clock round. So she went to this guy who just told her to sit daily , ignore those attacks ( sic) and it was part of what was to be expected.

 

shortly after she got on antidepressiva and decided meditation was not her thing....

 

I think, she would have done better to begin small, with just a few minutes a day. But that of course is just my opinion.

[Jeff]

I think people like her that are sort of stuck in "hyper receptive", should not be allowed to do something like a 10 day retreat. Or the leaders should be advanced enough to be able to shield (or provide space) for such people. Certainly, at least able to indentify the current energy status of the attendees.