The Perils of Meditation

[dwai]

14 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I think people like her that are sort of stuck in "hyper receptive", should not be allowed to do something like a 10 day retreat. Or the leaders should be advanced enough to be able to shield (or provide space) for such people. Certainly, at least able to indentify the current energy status of the attendees.

It's better for such people to do moving meditations like Taijiquan or Bagua or some flavor of Qigong. 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

It's better for such people to do moving meditations like Taijiquan or Bagua or some flavor of Qigong. 

 

I can see that, but just not 10 days of nothing but doing it... 

[RiverSnake]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

I think people like her that are sort of stuck in "hyper receptive", should not be allowed to do something like a 10 day retreat. Or the leaders should be advanced enough to be able to shield (or provide space) for such people. Certainly, at least able to indentify the current energy status of the attendees.

 

I think one of the potential dangers of doing a group retreat is that your in a "group" and there can be schedules, expectations and routines. People can go into groups and as a result of being caught up in the group mind...end up ignoring there own intuitive knowledge telling them they need to take a break and allow things to integrate. Pushing to far in any kind of practice can cause unnecessary difficulties. 

Edited July 11, 2017 by OldSaint

[Jeff]

34 minutes ago, OldSaint said:

 

I think one of the potential dangers of doing a group retreat is that your in a "group" and there can be schedules, expectations and routines. People can go into groups and as a result of being caught up in the group mind...end up ignoring there own intuitive knowledge telling them they need to take a break and allow things to integrate. Pushing to far in any kind of practice can cause unnecessary difficulties. 

 

Yes, makes a lot of sense.  Also, in group meditations it is possible to pick up stuff energetically from the rest of the group or some powerful "transmitter" in the group.  That energy barrage can become the straw that breaks the camels back.

 

Also, don't get me wrong... I am supportive of such retreats in general.  Just a question of having qualified supervision.

[Aaron]

I think there's a difference between transient psychosis due to major depression, drug use, or other brief mental illness and schizophrenia and bipolar. I think many of the people who "recover" are most likely suffering from psychosis as a result of something other than a major mental illness. With that said, meditation helped me with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Depression, and Anxiety, removing the need for medication, which I had been taking long term. I found that the less involved in self I became, the less my mental illness ruled my life and the more I was able to escape the trappings of the world from which they grew. That being said, my OCD is a chemical imbalance and I still feel the need to check my door now and again, the difference is I allow myself to do it without feeling guilt over it. 

 

A lot of growth comes from acceptance, not necessarily getting rid of things. 

[blue eyed snake]

well, shooting from the hip

 

loosely there is made a difference between ' psychiatric' disorders and psychological problems/disorders.

The first being rooted in the setup of the body. Whether found in the DNA or not, these are regarded as baked into the person, so ( latently) being there at birth.  For example Bipolar disorder, autism, schizophrenia

 

the other category are manmade, these are problems that have their root into rearing and adverse events in a persons life. Depression, anxiety , borderline are examples.

 

even though there is discussion abut this and where the cutoff line should be. The difference seem to have validity.

 

But...when you have a ( still latent ) inborn disorder, changes that that  disorder will come into being are much bigger when rearing is suboptimal and/or when adverse life events occur.

 

Plus

 

People with inborn ( latent) disorders are in general much more sensitive to what happens with them and can be " difficult" children. Thereby the factor of suboptimal rearing and the risk of adverse life-events ( such as bullying for instance) become magnified.

 

end of it being that people with ( latent) inborn disorders have a much larger risk on having problems in growing up. Suboptimal rearing and adverse life-events are stressors. An overload of stress is closely related to the ' psychological' disorders like depression and anxiety, which are more often then not co-morbid wit the " psychiatric" disorders.

( would that my command of English was better, but it isn't)

 

Personally I'm not very happy with this duality, but it does have some validity. Even though lately epigenetics is rearing ts head. Meaning that maybe things that are deemed genetic and therefore unchangeable may not be so unchangeable as we think.

 

Point of my rambling,

to me the various forms of meditation, sitting or standing, walking are all helpful in dissolving emotional blocks that are the result of being human, being reared in a culture. Being identified with the things that form the " I" .  Whatever ' disorder' people have, this baggage is present in all of them. People wit a disorder have more blocks and these blockages are rooted stronger then in people without disorders. And I would like that for them careful ways of getting rid of these blockages would become available.

 

Meditation, both sitting and standing, has done a lot for me. But I needed to take it in very small bits at first.

 

Meditators who do not have these adverse life-events do not really get how fucking much you have to go through.

psychologist do not get what meditation is and what it can do, both in the positive, when measured right. And in the negative, when overdosed.

 

 

 

 

[Aaron]

Enlightenment doesn't free one from the obligations of daily living. A schizophrenic who achieves enlightenment is still a schizophrenic. I've met many schizophrenics who are wonderful loving, wise, and knowledgeable individuals. I had a lengthy conversation about Vedanta with a schizophrenic friend and their reply, as if it was a matter of fact, was, "Well that makes sense, doesn't it?" No argument, no questions about self or the id and ego. We stigmatize people without knowing them and in the end it causes us to forget that each of us is each of us, and one is all and all is one. 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Aaron

[liminal_luke]

How do major mental disorders like schizophrenia and bipolar mix with meditation?  I don`t think there are any easy answers.  People with all sorts of conditions have both healed themselves and gotten a whole lot worse with meditation.  Remember SFJane (I think her handle was) who healed herself from bipolar doing hours and hours of Bruce Francis style meditation a day?  She wrote a book about it, not sure the title.

[C T]

Vipassana is essentially a neutral practice, but when some group designs a course that is only a fraction of what Vipassana is and then promote it to make it appeal to those who want fast results thinking they can master this sublime Buddhist practice in 10 days, not realising that some of the crux of Vipassana has, by design, been left out of the program, then potentially this can compound the ignorance that some people may have with this particular method, and by the time their lack of knowledge gains exposure, it's usually too late to wish they had not attended in the first place. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by C T

[Maddie]

I think often overlooked is the fact that mediation is at the end of the eight fold path. There are a lot of things to be mastered first. 

 

Right view: study, contemplate.

 

Right intention: determine to be harmless, ECT..

 

Right speech: be gracious in your communication.

 

Right conduct: ethics (up they matter)

 

Right livelihood: don't make a living causing harm.

 

Right effort: not too much not too little.

 

Right mindfulness and

Right concentration: now start thinking about meditation.

Edited April 17, 2020 by dmattwads

[C T]

Developing mindfulness at the tail end of the path is not a common understanding among the many Buddhist schools. 

Your reasoning may well be valid as it pertains to your personal experience, so no argument there.

 

The application of Right Mindfulness is aimed at cultivating insight into the causes of conceptual proliferations and tendencies which give rise to habitual mental elaborations. Right Mindfulness is like an integral support to all the other seven disciplines. 

 

Its generally accepted that cultivating the Eightfold Path need not be linear. In fact, I think it would be helpful, at the onset, to develop at least an intellectual familiarization with the concept of mindfulness as it crucially relates to Dhamma praxis (Right Effort) with discriminating awareness knowing what is to be accumulated and what is to be discarded. 

 

As Bhikkhu Bodhi points out, "The eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are not steps to be followed in sequence, one after another. They can be more aptly described as components rather than as steps, comparable to the intertwining strands of a single cable that requires the contributions of all the strands for maximum strength. With a certain degree of progress all eight factors can be present simultaneously, each supporting the others."

 

 

 

[Maddie]

I agree you have a valid point especially in regards to mindfulness, but on the other hand I think especially in regards to concentration if some of the other foundational practices haven't been adequately developed it would seem that problems can develop.

[C T]

5 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

I agree you have a valid point especially in regards to mindfulness, but on the other hand I think especially in regards to concentration if some of the other foundational practices haven't been adequately developed it would seem that problems can develop.

I may be wrong, but I would agree with your view regarding the final component of Right Concentration, since it relates to the jnanas. Initially, I had opened that response above with the inclusion of Right Concentration (alongside Developing mindfulness), but deleted it upon deeper reflection. 

[Maddie]

I can elaborate a little bit more just using my own experience as a typical Westerner starting this path.

 

So being the typical Westerner I saw the right concentration was at the very end so I thought naturally that's where I'd start.

 

On the extended path which are sometimes called the 10 fold path right concentration leads to right insight or sometimes called right knowledge which then leads to right wisdom which ultimately leads to liberation.

 

So the idea is they concentrated mind it's quiet enough to see what's really inside the mind and then to understand it and to gain wisdom.

 

So I spent an excessive amount of time working on concentration and indeed I became much more aware of all sorts of things in the mind, but unfortunately since I hadn't developed the rest of the path I really wasn't ready for all of that.

 

Had I develop Right view I wouldn't have been as confused and freaked out over the stuff that came to the surface and I would have reacted to it better. When I saw all these things instead of saying what's wrong with me I would have realized there was no me to be wrong. 

 

Had I developed right intention, such as the intention of compassion and harmlessness when I saw things that were unpleasant instead of judging myself and making it worse I would have been compassionate to myself.

 

Had I worked on right speech more I would have realized that the way we speak to others is the way we speak to ourselves and my inner dialogue that arose during mindfulness would have been much more helpful and less counterproductive.

 

Had I worked on right action more my meditation wouldn't have been as counterproductive as I was trying to undo past conditioning while in the present creating more non-beneficial conditioning.

 

I'm not going to lie I think just by default I had right livelihood down pretty well. It's nice to have at least one win 🤭.

 

If I had right effor down I don't think I would have pushed myself so hard as to make the practice miserable at times.

Edited April 17, 2020 by dmattwads

[Maddie]

This is something I've been thinking a lot about lately.

 

Usually basically what you hear is that study is nice and cute and a good start but it won't really do much for you and you basically have to meditate in order to get anywhere.

 

As someone who has been in great deal of time meditating I don't know if I agree with this. I think I've had far more breakthroughs from studying and contemplating. I also think meditation has done a lot to make me feel like a crazy person a lot of the time.

 

If you look at the eight fold path concentration which is another term for meditation is the very last step and yet in the west it's usually what people are encouraged to begin with.

 

Right view is the first step and Right view implies study. 

 

Obviously study isn't going to lead to you shooting lightning out of your hands like Palpatine but it might prevent you from thinking and acting like him.

 

In my personal opinion I think there's too much emphasis on meditating from the beginning and not enough on studying.

[Maddie]

I find personally that mindfulness is one of the most useful and miserable practices there is.

[idiot_stimpy]

Meditation and self inquiry can go together.

 

I agree with you about studying and contemplation. However maybe mediation makes the mind more conducive to having a breakthrough with contemplation.

[C T]

Practices that lead to the gradual dissolution of solidly fixated thought streams is what leads to the cultivation of Right View, and study is simply one aspect of said practices, and not exactly a prerequisite. To prove the point, there are enough realised practitioners who've not done a lot of study. Sky gazing will do more to cause Right View to stabilise than studying the many sutras. 

[Maddie]

I've noticed a few things about meditation.

 

The first is just even a little bit can cause me to feel either quite anxious or depressed or both.

 

The other is that I realize many things about my mind to contemplate.

 

I don't know why even a little amount can make me feel so bad.

[Limahong]

38 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I don't know why even a little amount can make me feel so bad.

 

 

 

 

 

Don't get drowned ~ little by little...

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by Limahong
Enhancement

[dwai]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

I've noticed a few things about meditation.

 

The first is just even a little bit can cause me to feel either quite anxious or depressed or both.

 

The other is that I realize many things about my mind to contemplate.

 

I don't know why even a little amount can make me feel so bad.

You are not your mind — you feel bad because you identify with the mind. Used to happen to be a lot, until I understood that (one aspect of) the mind is, it is a storehouse of impressions and memories. You don’t have to feel bad about them — just don’t identify with them. 

[Maddie]

I had given up meditation because I began to suspect that it was causing me severe anxiety and insomnia. Last spring I dropped it. Yesterday I decided to try 20-30 minutes. Last night I didn't sleep most the night and was tossing and turning with anxiety and weird thoughts. I have had enough of meditation. Prior to that I had been feeling and sleeping much better. 

Edited January 21, 2021 by dmattwads

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

I had given up meditation because I began to suspect that it was causing me severe anxiety and insomnia. Last spring I dropped it. Yesterday I decided to try 20-30 minutes. Last night I didn't sleep most the night and was tossing and turning with anxiety and weird thoughts. I have had enough of meditation. Prior to that I had been feeling and sleeping much better. 

 

Then don't do any mind related meditation for the time being.  Those purely body related ones like breathing control would be okay?

 

 

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

Then don't do any mind related meditation for the time being.  Those purely body related ones like breathing control would be okay?

 

 

 

I have been wondering if this would be ok, though I guess I'm a bit hesitant due to the severe reactions I have. I'm also worried that I might accidently fall into meditation doing something similar, as this has happened to me sometimes just sitting and relaxing. 

Edited January 21, 2021 by dmattwads

[Master Logray]

12 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

I have been wondering if this would be ok, though I guess I'm a bit hesitant due to the severe reactions I have. I'm also worried that I might accidently fall into meditation doing something similar, as this has happened to me sometimes just sitting and relaxing. 

 

Then do standing poses, you won't fall into deep trance.