The Perils of Meditation

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I have one for you now. After meditating do you find yourself sometimes bombarded with intrusive unpleasant thoughts that seem very out of character?

 

Yes even to the extent of what seem like other people's memories - if that makes sense. (I know you didn't ask me  )

[Maddie]

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Yes even to the extent of what seem like other people's memories - if that makes sense. (I know you didn't ask me  )

 

Well I'm still glad you answered lol. I would be curious for you to elaborate on that a bit. Is this something you've experienced as well?

[Apech]

19 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Well I'm still glad you answered lol. I would be curious for you to elaborate on that a bit. Is this something you've experienced as well?

 

The thing is ... meditation is powerful - it's a powerful tool.  It's not therapy - though you can use some of its techniques as therapy of course.  If you want to be healthy, relaxed, at ease and socially well adjusted - there's lots of nice calming stuff to do. like drinking tea and listening to Bach.  There's a quote in Buddhism (not sure where from exactly but my Lama quotes it) 'Strong practice, strong Maras' - if you practice strongly (is that a word?) then some crazy and sometimes disturbing shit will happen.  You will often feel worse before you feel better.  At least 90% of meditation is about learning how to negotiate this - and there is no easy way round this.

 

Being 'invaded' by loud hurtful thoughts is common (and no I'm not schitzophrenic ... yet!) - at one time I was quite often seeing vivid images and scenes which felt like strong memories of places I'd been and people I'd met - only to 'come round' and realise I'd never been to those places and so on - so yes like other people's memories.

 

To get past the shit you really need to understand the basis of basic sitting and basic inquiry.  The same is the case for the symptoms you mention of being fogged up, or being anxious and all that.  If you are not interested - then I agree, give up and do something else.  Seriously, not in a bad way, making your own judgements and calls is essential.

 

Crazy is as crazy does.

[Maddie]

19 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

The thing is ... meditation is powerful - it's a powerful tool.  It's not therapy - though you can use some of its techniques as therapy of course.  If you want to be healthy, relaxed, at ease and socially well adjusted - there's lots of nice calming stuff to do. like drinking tea and listening to Bach.  There's a quote in Buddhism (not sure where from exactly but my Lama quotes it) 'Strong practice, strong Maras' - if you practice strongly (is that a word?) then some crazy and sometimes disturbing shit will happen.  You will often feel worse before you feel better.  At least 90% of meditation is about learning how to negotiate this - and there is no easy way round this.

 

Being 'invaded' by loud hurtful thoughts is common (and no I'm not schitzophrenic ... yet!) - at one time I was quite often seeing vivid images and scenes which felt like strong memories of places I'd been and people I'd met - only to 'come round' and realise I'd never been to those places and so on - so yes like other people's memories.

 

To get past the shit you really need to understand the basis of basic sitting and basic inquiry.  The same is the case for the symptoms you mention of being fogged up, or being anxious and all that.  If you are not interested - then I agree, give up and do something else.  Seriously, not in a bad way, making your own judgements and calls is essential.

 

Crazy is as crazy does.

 

Very good. You make several good points. I actually got into this originally because I had been through a lot of traumatic stuff and was currently (at the time) in a bad relationship. I couldn't afford therapy and to me meditation seemed like a relaxation technique since most of the posters showed some girl on a beach sitting cross legged and looking relaxed. The things you mentioned are things I have been evaluating and are evaluating largely for the reasons you mentioned.

 

*edit: This also causes me to understand the mostly merit based aspect of most popular religion. Most people can't handle cultivation.

Edited January 24, 2021 by dmattwads

[Apech]

8 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Very good. You make several good points. I actually got into this originally because I had been through a lot of traumatic stuff and was currently (at the time) in a bad relationship. I couldn't afford therapy and to me meditation seemed like a relaxation technique since most of the posters showed some girl on a beach sitting cross legged and looking relaxed. The things you mentioned are things I have been evaluating and are evaluating largely for the reasons you mentioned.

 

*edit: This also causes me to understand the mostly merit based aspect of most popular religion. Most people can't handle cultivation.

 

Those beach girls get you every time

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Those beach girls get you every time

 

I just googled "meditation" and this was the image at the top of the list.

 

 

[Apech]

Whereas you should have got something like this:

 

[Maddie]

17 minutes ago, Apech said:

Whereas you should have got something like this:

 

 

Something that I've noticed is that often after a lot of meditation or karma clearing mantras my thoughts get inexplicably kinky :-/

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

 

I have one for you now. After meditating do you find yourself sometimes bombarded with intrusive unpleasant thoughts that seem very out of character?

No but I went through a phase when it used to happen constantly — not just in meditation but pretty much in the entire  waking state. It was due to a mistaken identification with the mind. That happens when witnessing awareness develops, but there is no complete clarity yet. 
 

The way I understand it, the mind will gravitate towards certain types of thought patterns based on conditioning. If you spend a lot of time exposing the mind to certain stimuli it will continue to draw from that spring (or gutter), so to speak.

 

Thoughts don’t really belong to us, they exist in what can be called the cosmic mind steam or maybe what a psychologist would call a collective subconscious. 
 

Once we clearly understand that the mind/thoughts are not our “Self”, then they will eventually stop to rise. 

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by dwai

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

No but I went through a phase when it used to happen constantly — not just in meditation but pretty much in the entire  waking state. It was due to a mistaken identification with the mind. 
 

The way I understand it, the mind will gravitate towards certain types of thought patterns based on conditioning. If you spend a lot of time exposing the mind to certain stimuli it will continue to draw from that spring (or gutter), so to speak.

 

Thoughts don’t really belong to us, they exist in what can be called the cosmic mind steam or maybe what a psychologist would call a collective subconscious. 
 

Once we clearly understand that the mind/thoughts are not our “Self”, then they will eventually stop to rise. 

 

 

I get that too,  but what if the thoughts that come up are out of no where and totally out of character?

[Apech]

41 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Something that I've noticed is that often after a lot of meditation or karma clearing mantras my thoughts get inexplicably kinky :-/

 

 

 

When you have mastered the having sex while flying over a flood plain stage then you can move on to counting the breaths.

 

 

[doc benway]

The peril of meditation is simply that we will get to know ourselves as we truly are.

What we find can be very beautiful and liberating but along the way can be very ugly and frightening.

One of my favorite teachers is Anthony Demello who was both a spiritual teacher and a psychologist.

He talked about his struggles finding balance between the two.

As a psychologist, the goal is often to ease suffering.

As a spiritual guide, the goal often must lead through that very suffering.

 

Regarding uncharacteristic thoughts, they are all a part of you.

We collect so much along the way from birth to the grave.

Much of that is suppressed or repressed, we often don't even realize it's something we've collected.

When it expresses itself it can be quite surprising, even unwelcome.

Our work as practitioners is to honor its presence without hanging on, just to allow it to do its dance and carry on.

[dwai]

38 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I get that too,  but what if the thoughts that come up are out of no where and totally out of character?

That could be due to karmic influences -- latent patterns (samskaras/vasanas) arising, thereby attracting those kinds of thoughts. BTW, this could be an additional point to those that @steve already made in his comment. 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

That could be due to karmic influences -- latent patterns (samskaras/vasanas) arising, thereby attracting those kinds of thoughts. BTW, this could be an additional point to those that @steve already made in his comment. 

 

I have noticed that when I work on karma more, this happens more.

[dwai]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

 

I have noticed that when I work on karma more, this happens more.

How do you work on karma?

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

How do you work on karma?

 

Two main ways.

 

Meditation (which I don't really do now)

 

Certain Mantras

 

I notice the unusual thoughts tend to follow when doing much of either of these.

Edited January 24, 2021 by dmattwads

[doc benway]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

Meditation (which I don't really do now)

 

Certain Mantras

 

I notice the unusual thoughts tend to follow when doing much of either of these.

This is very natural and will go on for a long time if you continue to practice.

Methods like meditation (of which there are many) and mantra help us to quiet and rest the active mind.

When that very familiar mind and its content rest and begin to open up all sorts of new, unexpected, and unfamiliar territory makes itself accessible. This is the proverbial "peeling the onion."

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, steve said:

This is very natural and will go on for a long time if you continue to practice.

Methods like meditation (of which there are many) and mantra help us to quiet and rest the active mind.

When that very familiar mind and its content rest and begin to open up all sorts of new, unexpected, and unfamiliar territory makes itself accessible. This is the proverbial "peeling the onion."

 

It's definitely gone on way longer than I ever thought it would. I had no idea there could be so much in one person. I have noticed much has changed for all my trouble, but then more things continue to surprise me. 

[doc benway]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

 

It's definitely gone on way longer than I ever thought it would. I had no idea there could be so much in one person. I have noticed much has changed for all my trouble, but then more things continue to surprise me. 

 

I've had a similar experience since beginning meditation practice about 17 years ago.

There seem to be always more things to come up.

Not surprising given how full of stuff my day to day life is - work, relationships, habits, hobbies, "news," etc...

There are also things that come up that are not at all new, things I thought I'd let go or transformed.

These persistent patterns that are resistant to change are the more frustrating for me currently.

[Maddie]

It's nice that some "get it". I think since my approach is more mind based than energy based, many of energy practice people don't always quite understand.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, steve said:

These persistent patterns that are resistant to change are the more frustrating for me currently.

 

Yes this is always the case.

 

I've come to view them not as "more resistant to change" but there is a LOT more karma/conditioning there to work with. So not so much a qualitative issue, but quantitative.

[doc benway]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

It's nice that some "get it". I think since my approach is more mind based than energy based, many of energy practice people don't always quite understand.

 

True

I don't mean this to be a criticism of energy practice or its advocates but sometimes I find that working on the body and working with "energy" can be an easy way to bypass lots of real stuff that needs to be addressed. The idea is that working on the body and with "energy" are an indirect way to address the mind. Unfortunately, it doesn't always seem to be effective, even among experienced practitioners. 

[Maddie]

10 minutes ago, steve said:

 

True

I don't mean this to be a criticism of energy practice or its advocates but sometimes I find that working on the body and working with "energy" can be an easy way to bypass lots of real stuff that needs to be addressed. The idea is that working on the body and with "energy" are an indirect way to address the mind. Unfortunately, it doesn't always seem to be effective, even among experienced practitioners. 

 

This is precisely why I switched methods. From energy to mind that is.

 

*edit: not saying the energy methods are bad or inferior, but what my own experience was.

Edited January 24, 2021 by dmattwads

[forestofclarity]

I think what Apech wrote is pretty spot on. The challenge is having a sufficient container that can handle the maras, especially as they get stronger. Some of my early teachers said that meditation is like building a ship that allows you to go into deeper and more treacherous waters. One of the best ways to construct a container in my experience is having a well-balanced life and psyche. In meditation, this means putting in work at the level of shamatha -- which in my view means the ability of the mind to rest and relax with whatever is arising. A lot of people like to skip over shamatha for the more exciting vipassana aspects, but I think this is a mistake. 

 

Another way to use qigong to help calm the energy body a bit.

 

In Vajrayana, faith, devotion, and confidence int he teacher and lineage also help fulfill this function. Of course, there are also practices that can take the edge off, like Chenrezig. 

 

For some, this might also mean working in non-meditation modalities, such as therapy. 

 

If I had to guess @dmattwads, the instability in your regular life is bleeding over into your meditation. You've talked somewhat about various difficult relationships, money issues, job changes, etc. Because we're not monks, unfortunately we have to deal with these, but I bet once you clear up your daily life these meditation problems will be easier to deal with. 

 

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

The thing is ... meditation is powerful - it's a powerful tool.  It's not therapy - though you can use some of its techniques as therapy of course.  If you want to be healthy, relaxed, at ease and socially well adjusted - there's lots of nice calming stuff to do. like drinking tea and listening to Bach.  There's a quote in Buddhism (not sure where from exactly but my Lama quotes it) 'Strong practice, strong Maras' - if you practice strongly (is that a word?) then some crazy and sometimes disturbing shit will happen.  You will often feel worse before you feel better.  At least 90% of meditation is about learning how to negotiate this - and there is no easy way round this.

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by forestofemptiness

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

If I had to guess @dmattwads, the instability in your regular life is bleeding over into your meditation. You've talked somewhat about various difficult relationships, money issues, job changes, etc. Because we're not monks, unfortunately we have to deal with these, but I bet once you clear up your daily life these meditation problems will be easier to deal with.

 

I realize the timeline can get a bit blurry, but the relationship issue is long in the past. My situation with money seems rather optimistic, so again it does not seem related to my current situation. I noticed it got worse when quarantine first began and I had a lot more free time to meditate, and as an introvert I loved quarantine. The point being I had nothing else going on at all and things got way worse.