The Perils of Meditation

[dwai]

50 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Two main ways.

 

Meditation (which I don't really do now)

 

Certain Mantras

 

I notice the unusual thoughts tend to follow when doing much of either of these.

What is the association of karma with meditation and mantras? In case these questions seem annoying, I don't mean it to be so. It's a genuine question, if you'd like to humor me  

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

What is the association of karma with meditation and mantras? In case these questions seem annoying, I don't mean it to be so. It's a genuine question, if you'd like to humor me  

 

Humor is my middle name. So there are mantras that have a specific function to improve karma by working out the bad and increasing the good such as the Zhunti mantra for one example.

 

With meditation when the mind quiets down then one becomes more aware of their sankhara's in the fourth skandha. The fourth skandha of volition is where karma is made and where it is stored. Become aware of your sankhara's in the fourth skanda and you begin to process them. This is how meditation deals with karma.

[dwai]

Just now, dmattwads said:

 

Humor is my middle name. So there are mantras that have a specific function to improve karma by working out the bad and increasing the good such as the Zhunti mantra for one example.

 

With meditation when the mind quiets down then one becomes more aware of their sankhara's in the fourth skandha. The fourth skandha of volition is where karma is made and where it is stored. Become aware of your sankhara's in the fourth skanda and you begin to process them. This is how meditation deals with karma.

Ah, I see. Okay, thanks for explaining the process. The way I approach this is, the recognition of samskaras/vasanas (in the Vedantic parlance, these exist in seed form in the causal body/layer) -- and letting them rise and dissipate (without attaching) during meditation will make them lose their impetus. It takes time, and they rise over and over again, with progressively lower intensity. 

 

If Karmic effects were to be likened to money, then these exist in 3 forms. One is the money in our wallet, the other is the money in the bank, and the third is the money we will earn. The "money in the wallet" type is our active karmic effects, associated with this birth - activated with this body-mind. The "money in the bank" is that which is in reserve, and will activate in subsequent births, and the "money we earn" is on the basis of actions we take in this lifetime.

 

Meditation will only deal with the "money in the wallet" kind of karma. In order to be 'free', we have to eliminate the 'money in the bank' kind of karma, and stop karma altogether.  The fastest/surest way, is to realize our True Nature (we Hindus call it our True Self, Buddhists call it Buddha Nature, etc). For that, we have to undertake Self-inquiry type of practice. We have realize our True Nature and become karmically bankrupt. 

[Maddie]

25 minutes ago, dwai said:

 For that, we have to undertake Self-inquiry type of practice. We have realize our True Nature and become karmically bankrupt. 

 

How does one go about doing this in practice?

[Maddie]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

To get past the shit you really need to understand the basis of basic sitting and basic inquiry.  The same is the case for the symptoms you mention of being fogged up, or being anxious and all that.  If you are not interested - then I agree, give up and do something else.  Seriously, not in a bad way, making your own judgements and calls is essential.

 

To address this point I have been relying more on my TCM knowledge lately for a lot of things in lew of the absence of meditation.

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

I think what Apech wrote is pretty spot on. The challenge is having a sufficient container that can handle the maras, especially as they get stronger. Some of my early teachers said that meditation is like building a ship that allows you to go into deeper and more treacherous waters. One of the best ways to construct a container in my experience is having a well-balanced life and psyche. In meditation, this means putting in work at the level of shamatha -- which in my view means the ability of the mind to rest and relax with whatever is arising. A lot of people like to skip over shamatha for the more exciting vipassana aspects, but I think this is a mistake.

 

I very much agree. I actually had done some vipassana in the past but didn't care for it much. I mostly had been doing Samatha.

[dwai]

11 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

How does one go about doing this in practice?

Spoiler

 

 

[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

  Hide contents

 

 

 

I'll have to look at that a little later. For some reason (I don't even know why) I find Hindu concepts more difficult to grasp. Perhaps this explains my tendency towards Buddhism.

Edited January 24, 2021 by dmattwads

[dwai]

6 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I'll have to look at that a little later. For some reason (I don't even know why) I find Hindu concepts more difficult to grasp. Perhaps this explains my tendency towards Buddhism.

Just takes someone to explain things right  

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

Just takes someone to explain things right  

 

I find Sadguru interesting. I remember watching a video where he explained that temples were actually low level stuff (I think)

[forestofclarity]

53 minutes ago, dwai said:

Ah, I see. Okay, thanks for explaining the process. The way I approach this is, the recognition of samskaras/vasanas (in the Vedantic parlance, these exist in seed form in the causal body/layer) -- and letting them rise and dissipate (without attaching) during meditation will make them lose their impetus. It takes time, and they rise over and over again, with progressively lower intensity. 

 

This explanation is not entirely different from the Buddhist conception, but the language is different. Instead of causal body, the Buddhist might say alaya. If things are arising and dissipating without attaching, there is no intention and therefore no karma. In many ways, I think that the 5 alaya model is better than the 5 skandha model. 

 

How do mantras work from the Vedanta POV? 

 

 

[Maddie]

9 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

This explanation is not entirely different from the Buddhist conception, but the language is different. Instead of causal body, the Buddhist might say alaya. If things are arising and dissipating without attaching, there is no intention and therefore no karma. In many ways, I think that the 5 alaya model is better than the 5 skandha model. 

 

How do mantras work from the Vedanta POV? 

 

 

 

Unfortunately most of what I learned about meditation and theory was from the Theravada perspective so I am unaware of what "alaya" is, but would be fascinated to learn what it is.

 

*edit: on a side note, additionally I've lately been less satisfied with Theravada and more interested in Mahayana but have much less training in Mahayana.

Edited January 24, 2021 by dmattwads

[ilumairen]

14 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Unfortunately most of what I learned about meditation and theory was from the Theravada perspective so I am unaware of what "alaya" is, but would be fascinated to learn what it is.

 

In my understanding, it is simply the karmic storehouse, and I have yet to meet an individual without one, or an empty one - only people with less attachment to what arises from it.

 

I hope you don’t mind me presently not answering your question as I watch the conversation unfold in its interesting and organic manner. Perhaps later..

[dwai]

29 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

This explanation is not entirely different from the Buddhist conception, but the language is different. Instead of causal body, the Buddhist might say alaya. If things are arising and dissipating without attaching, there is no intention and therefore no karma. In many ways, I think that the 5 alaya model is better than the 5 skandha model. 

I like the alaya model better than skandhas too. 

29 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

How do mantras work from the Vedanta POV? 

 

 

This is imho/imhu  (caveat emptor)...

 

There are four levels of knowledge/“speech” (vać) — parā, pashyanti, madhyama and vaikhari (higher to lower). At the highest level, parā is Self - knowledge itself, unarticulated,  inexpressible in a dualistic mode. At the causal layer, it becomes pashyanti - unarticulated but appears as motifs, archetypes, deities and their powers. At the astral layer, they are ideas and intention, still unarticulated. At the physical layer, they are vocalized speech, etc. 

Mantras are meant to take us from vaikhari to parā, from the dual to non-dual. Mantras gain their power and efficacy depending on how they are practiced. 

[forestofclarity]

So in later Theravada, there is the idea developed of the bhavanga citta. In Yogacara, this was developed further into the 7th and 8th consciousnesses (the first six being the sensory and mental consciousnesses), including the all base or alaya-vijnana (as ilumairen pointed out). This contains all your karmic seeds, carries from life to life, etc. 

 

33 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Unfortunately most of what I learned about meditation and theory was from the Theravada perspective so I am unaware of what "alaya" is, but would be fascinated to learn what it is.

 

*edit: on a side note, additionally I've lately been less satisfied with Theravada and more interested in Mahayana but have much less training in Mahayana.

 

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

So in later Theravada, there is the idea developed of the bhavanga citta. In Yogacara, this was developed further into the 7th and 8th consciousnesses (the first six being the sensory and mental consciousnesses), including the all base or alaya-vijnana (as ilumairen pointed out). This contains all your karmic seeds, carries from life to life, etc. 

 

 

 

Oh so that is the 7th and 8th consciousness theory in Mahayana? I've heard of it, but like you said being mainly trained Theravadan I am only familiar with 1-6.

 

I think the Theravada say the karmic seeds are carried in the sankhara skandha.

Edited January 24, 2021 by dmattwads

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

So in later Theravada, there is the idea developed of the bhavanga citta. In Yogacara, this was developed further into the 7th and 8th consciousnesses (the first six being the sensory and mental consciousnesses), including the all base or alaya-vijnana (as ilumairen pointed out). This contains all your karmic seeds, carries from life to life, etc. 

 

 

This might give a map of the alaya model and the Vedantic model —

 

https://www.medhajournal.com/consciousness-according-to-zen-buddhism-and-how-it-relates-to-advaita-vedanta/

[forestofclarity]

11 minutes ago, dwai said:

This might give a map of the alaya model and the Vedantic model —

 

https://www.medhajournal.com/consciousness-according-to-zen-buddhism-and-how-it-relates-to-advaita-vedanta/

 

I actually meant the kosa model--- it is easier to grasp on an experiential level. 

 

I should add that I have strong reservations about that article, but that would likely be a separate thread. 

 

I might also argue the inverse--- rather than saying there is a Self in Buddhism, that at the highest level, there is no Self in Vedanta. 

Edited January 24, 2021 by forestofemptiness

[forestofclarity]

I think that's what the suttas say, and the Abidhamma developed the bhavanga citta. I don't really do Theravada anymore, so my memory is a bit rusty.

 

4 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Oh so that is the 7th and 8th consciousness theory in Mahayana? I've heard of it, but like you said being mainly trained Theravadan I am only familiar with 1-6.

 

I think the Theravada say the karmic seeds are carried in the sankhara skandha.

 

[Maddie]

12 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

I actually meant the kosa model--- it is easier to grasp on an experiential level. 

 

I should add that I have strong reservations about that article, but that would likely be a separate thread. 

 

I might also argue the inverse--- rather than saying there is a Self in Buddhism, that at the highest level, there is no Self in Vedanta. 

 

From studying the Buddhist concept of anata deeply I have become increasingly convinced that the Buddha did not teach no self as is commonly assumed, but rather taught what the self is not, namely it is not any of the five skandhas. When asked if there was a self or no self the Buddha would not answer.

[Maddie]

27 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

I think that's what the suttas say, and the Abidhamma developed the bhavanga citta. I don't really do Theravada anymore, so my memory is a bit rusty.

 

 

 

If you don't mind my asking, may I inquire as to why you migrated from Theravada?

[Maddie]

58 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

In my understanding, it is simply the karmic storehouse, and I have yet to meet an individual without one, or an empty one - only people with less attachment to what arises from it.

 

I hope you don’t mind me presently not answering your question as I watch the conversation unfold in its interesting and organic manner. Perhaps later..

 

I don't mind waiting but since you did mention the karmic storehouse it did make me remember that when I'm feeling out of sorts due to a karmic release nothing external seems to have any effect what so ever. Herbs the normally help don't, acupuncture has no effect. Basically any method that I normally use to feel better for any other cause has no effect when its a karmic release.

[Maddie]

51 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

So in later Theravada, there is the idea developed of the bhavanga citta. In Yogacara, this was developed further into the 7th and 8th consciousnesses (the first six being the sensory and mental consciousnesses), including the all base or alaya-vijnana (as ilumairen pointed out). This contains all your karmic seeds, carries from life to life, etc. 

 

 

 

Also do you know what the Mahayana interpretation of the skandha's are? I'm under the impression the Mahayana interpret them as "things" whereas the Theravada view them as "functions"?

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, steve said:

 

True

I don't mean this to be a criticism of energy practice or its advocates but sometimes I find that working on the body and working with "energy" can be an easy way to bypass lots of real stuff that needs to be addressed. The idea is that working on the body and with "energy" are an indirect way to address the mind. Unfortunately, it doesn't always seem to be effective, even among experienced practitioners. 

I was drawn to focusing awareness on the lower dantian and I used this as a sort of meditation in that I just stayed open to what was there, and what was there was primarily thwarted basic emotions. Apart from a couple of brief energy work instructions from dreams I stayed (painfully) with that one ‘meditation’ for 20 years or so, and only then was I ready for more complicated sorts of ‘energy’ work. 

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I was drawn to focusing awareness on the lower dantian and I used this as a sort of meditation in that I just stayed open to what was there, and what was there was primarily thwarted basic emotions. Apart from a couple of brief energy work instructions from dreams I stayed (painfully) with that one ‘meditation’ for 20 years or so, and only then was I ready for more complicated sorts of ‘energy’ work. 

 

I would imagine that this practice is a hybrid of both approaches.