What exactly is emptiness?

[Stosh]

42 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Stosh,

 

But of course.

 

 

 

- LimA

Yeah, Otherwise , its like using a flashlight to find darkness.  

Edited September 19, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Or a match to find the gasoline.

 

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

Yeah, Otherwise , its like using a flashlight to find darkness.

 

Hi Stosh,

 

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Or a match to find the gasoline.

 

Hi Dada-da

 

 

 

- LimA

[Stosh]

Umm, I wouldn't have chosen those analogies. 

[Limahong]

56 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Umm, I wouldn't have chosen those analogies

 

Hi Stosh,

 

Great to know why.

 

Wonder what Marblehead has got to say.

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

Umm, I wouldn't have chosen those analogies.

 

Hi Stosh,

 

Have second thoughts. I have digressed. Now back to empiness.

 

Everything that's created comes out of silence. Your thoughts emerge from the nothingness of silence. Your words come out of this void. Your very essence emerged from emptiness. All creativity requires some stillness.

- Wayne Dyer
 

- LimA

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Limahong
Enhancement of sentence.

[Stosh]

53 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Stosh,

 

Have second thoughts. I have digressed. Now back to empiness.

 

Everything that's created comes out of silence. Your thoughts emerge from the nothingness of silence. Your words come out of this void. Your very essence emerged from emptiness. All creativity requires some stillness.

- Wayne Dyer
 

- LimA

 

Wayne Dyers work is a bit like chicken soup.

A bit of everything is in there,

if you like it it may be good for you.

And I'd rather have something else.  

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Stosh,

 

Great to know why.

 

Wonder what Marblehead has got to say.

 

- LimA

Nuttin'

 

[Limahong]

26 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Nuttin'

 

Good morning Dada-da,

 

Are you nuts? Which type(s)?

 

 

 

Or COCONUTS?

 

- LimA

[Marblehead]

Nuts are one of my staple foods.  I always keep some in the house.  And peanut butter too.

 

I can't recall ever trying pine nuts though.

 

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, Stosh said:

... chicken soup.

 

Hi Stosh,

 

I am trying to keep to emptiness. Now you distracting me with chicken soup.

 

 

57 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Nuttin'

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

Nuttin' about emptiness?

Really nothing?

But of course.

 

- LimA

Edited September 19, 2017 by Limahong
Enhancement of sentence.

[Limahong]

22 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

 

I can't recall ever trying pine nuts.

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

 

 

- LimA

[sagebrush]

I posted a recipe sometime ago containing pine nuts. It was stuffed green peppers. meatless kind

with quinoa and feta and spinach and pine nuts among other ingredients.

 

I thought for sure someone would make the recipe.

 

that is what my problem is........

 

totally off topic but frustrating

 

apparently I am chiseled  in stone that is who I am

 

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by sagebrush
spell correction

[Limahong]

29 minutes ago, sagebrush said:

I am chiseled  in stone that is who I am

 

Hi sagebrush,

 

You - another stoneyhead?

Marblehead - you welcome another head of stone?

Stoneyheads - concrete in emptiness?

 

- LimA

[Stosh]

Ironically, pine nuts taste like nothingness.

[sagebrush]

no its like I am type casted...yes a bit poured in cement as well.

and the role is bizarre.

 

I am suppose to drop my guard and trust people and surrender

oh and share... my thoughts pertaining to spirituality

all in the name of divinity and transparency all the while being called just about every derogatory

name in the book--- :-)

 

 

 

emptiness--->

who can say?

and what for?

 

there is so much in here emptiness is not an option as far as I can see.

and I have trepidation with the ring leaders

 

 

 

[sagebrush]

no I am not a stone head

 

[Limahong]

21 minutes ago, Stosh said:

... pine nuts taste like nothingness.

 

Hi Stosh,

 

Taste is linked to taste buds.

Your buds in blooms yet?

Yours seasonal blooming?

Only in winter?

 

Pine nuts - are they nipped in your buds?

Everything else almost tastes 'pine nuts'?

Nutty is empty;

Empty is nutty?

 

Nothing in everything;

Everything in nothing?

Surely there must be something,

That's not everything & nothing.

Like what? Well almost anything.

 

- LimA

[Stosh]

 Ok... I suppose that could be true, depending on your definitions. 

I think there is something, and so there is everything, for sure. 

 

May I ask, for you personally, Limahong, what is your goal , your plan , for whatever your exertions , regarding Daoism? and why? 

Feel comfortable to keep it to yourself if you wish, and know there are several people I wonder this about. 

 

[Spotless]

On 7/9/2017 at 9:26 AM, Apech said:

I think it is useful to distinguish between the intellectual or philosophical presentation of emptiness which leads to correct understanding of the View and the actual realisation of emptiness.  The philosophical view depends on understanding that all phenomena are themselves dependent on causes and conditions and thus are not independent or autonomous - are made of parts of constituents (e.g. atoms etc.) and are time limited (ephemeral).  This view is consistent with and supports the realisation but is not the same.

 

The realisation of emptiness is ultimate bodhicitta - that is the awakened mind which in a relative sense leads to compassion.  As such it is beyond conceptualisation and words do not really describe or explain it.  Although it is called emptiness it is actually the basis for positive qualities such as generosity and so on.  So it is important not to fall into nihilism.

 

Quote

 

It is important to note the use of phrases such as "the realization of emptiness is ultimate bodhicitta - that is the awakened mind which..."

 

Not technically incorrect or misleading 

 

The astounding state of emptiness is somewhat expressed here - the immense gratitude - not a gratitude to something or for something, but deep peace in stillness and an abiding sense of a sort of compassion born of the silence of non-position. Still clear seeing.

 

There is a compelling force in the use of language to put this abiding realization on too high of a pedestal - though the pedestal is unable to be high enough. It is also xtremely unhelpful for guidance to be missing for those both prior to and after Awakening. 

It IS possible to point at and give some inkling as to what after-residuals will be still found. It is important to see the pointers and guidance for settling-in after Awakening. It is important to remove ones conceptualizations along this line prior regarding mind, and "Higher Mind".  Mind is a favorite word for many and Higher Mind is another - no argument - you can choose this wording and many greats have. 

 

But Mind as one has known it and Mind upon Awakening have NOTHING in common. Awareness, Presence are far better wording and certainly better pointers. 

 

Abiding takes a good two or more years -  in this time fragments that were thought to have completely gone begin to emerge. Not held by "I", not identified to as before but whether from deep DNA or a residual compression - they will emerge.

A slight wave in the stillness - but they pull for a bit until they don't- or they are a slight quirk in a great sages behavior.

 

Do not read into what I am stating here as huge failures or massive setbacks or. radical departures from the teaching of the ancients - it is more like noticing that All great teachers had/have their imperfect moments. Some have/had relatively bad habits and some were quite deplorable. The indication that to reach emptiness requires complete perfection is simply conceptualization and religious zeal. When it happens and who it happens to are definitely not the concept of perfection that Mind grasps.

 

Mind loves the concept of perfection - because it is unobtainable - and it loves the concept of "that which cannot be explained" it is the complete pie to its insatiable love of putting all things off in favor of more perfecting and pedestaling.

 

Yet it is true that it is unexplainable- but this is a teaching Not meant to do exactly what people do with it when all too often quoting it:

What is meant by "unexplainable"??  The teacher is saying "it cannot be boxed" - it was not meant to box the explainable pointers and associations and helpful stories as no more than spit in the ocean - even though prior it is so. After it is not so - upon Awakening and in finding abidance and embodiment a great deal is gleaned from pointers that a priori were unclear and misunderstood - they can become vibrant tones in ones stillness. 

 

Emptiness is also not something boxed up for only the Awakened to understand and box up themselves - it is unboxable. It is not a staid state - it does not preclude "other" states boxed outside of the concept of emptiness. 

 

Upon Awakening emptiness can be fullly disabling for some time - and Awakening is not some easy creature to box in with definitions. It is for some a wonderous abyss cleared of fear and noise, "i" "Me" and much more and living is still quite easy - for others it can be as such but one may not be quite so prepared for the massive alteration - internally there may be no issues at all but the pulling from outside can be quite difficult for some.

 

After the initial experiencing,  abiding and embodiment have many colors - much can be explained, pointers can be helpful and teachers can be very helpful both in body and not. Those that have "arrived early" to Awakening often have energy levels that soon bring up residual patterns and employ themselves often to the amusement of the Awakened but just as often in not such a playful manner. One can be unidentified with inertias that come to the surface and often as not fade soon entirely out of existence - but some can persist and some are simply accepted as harmless. It is also often hard to resist prematurely teaching, boxing in, labeling - a "favorite" residual and often the start of regression to identified relative duality (Awakening becomes an experience one had).

 

This abundance of words such as "perfection" and "unexplainable" and "Un-fathomable" is understandable but it is important to see the "perfect imperfection" and it is important to point and try to bring both a patina of understanding in pointing for those prior and great clarity to those Awakened. Awakened and Realized are both the same and different though just saying this can mean the spontaneous combustion of the more dogmatized among us.  Realized is often a covert term for Perfected - this in general is completely unnecessary and it is a pointer to those who do not understand - this is clear because it has no utility what so ever - only those that are well settled in high abidance and Presence will understand in amusement what is attempted in such statements and for all else it is pompous puffery, dogma and flowers - ( though - not to be to harsh - it is another term for settled and abiding with a tinge of Imortal and Crystalized added - again of no utility accept to those who can hear it).

 

(this was in no way meant to be an attack on or rebuttal to Apech's quote)

 

 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Spotless

[Spotless]

Stillness is Presence without inertia.

Active Presence without inertia is Presence in stillness - without inertia (position) (identification) friction does not exist, winds and waves may been seen but the stillness is not disturbed.

Emptiness is "without inertia"

Presence, Natural Divine Essence is Emptiness - un-colored and all colors.

[Marblehead]

10 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi sagebrush,

 

You - another stoneyhead?

Marblehead - you welcome another head of stone?

Stoneyheads - concrete in emptiness?

 

- LimA

Oh, there are many stone-headed people around here; it's just that most won't admit it.

 

[Limahong]

10 hours ago, Stosh said:

May I ask, for you personally, Limahong, what is your goal , your plan , for whatever your exertions , regarding Daoism? and why?  Feel comfortable to keep it to yourself if you wish, and know there are several people I wonder this about. 

 

Hi Stosh,

 

It is not a problem for me at all to answer your questions. 

 

I am a third generation overseas Chinese in search of his roots. I was a colonised 'British' during my growing up years and I have an occidental mindset. In that sense, I am 'Westernised'. But deep down I know in my blood that I was born an 'Easterner' - like a salmon swimming upstream or a turtle swimming back to its beach of birth.

 

I went back to my ancestral home in China for the first time in 2001 as a macho-man. Very worldly. But when I prayed in the ancestral home, I broke down asunder when a relative gave me a joss-stick and said - "Tell Grandpa and Grandma you have come home". I sobbed irrepressibly.

 

My embrace of Taoism is an attempt on my part to know who I am as intended by nature. I embrace Taoism as a philosophy with myself as a trained researcher. I define philosophy as  “a structured set of guidelines or activities to assist in generating valid and reliable research results”.

 

I have a PhD in business administration cum social science and the following are important to me per my communication at TDB: 

(i) Ontology

- What is the nature of the “knowable”? Or, what is the nature of “reality”?

- Assumptions that we make about the nature of reality.

(ii) Epistemology

- What is the nature of the relationship between the knower (the inquirer) and the known (or knowable)?

- A general set of assumptions about the best ways of inquiring into the nature of the world.

- The study of knowledge and what we accept as valid knowledge.

 

But as a member of TDB, I am just an average guy from the street who likes to approximate life as an apple tree surviving humorously in nature.

 

I do not/cannot resonate with "your goal , your plan , for whatever your exertions". Why? I am in the wu-wei mode at TDB.

 

As for - "know there are several people I wonder this about" - I am aware that I may not be accepted by some per who I am at TDB thus far. How come? I had a few brusque encounters.

 

I like to be advised on what I might have done wrong. When advised thus and, when I believed that there were wrong-doings on my part, I will apologise.

 

- LimA

Edited September 20, 2017 by Limahong
Enhancement of sentence.

[Stosh]

In case it seems I implied you did anything wrong ,, I havent , I was just curious, and your response answers that ,thanks. 

[Limahong]

19 hours ago, Stosh said:

In case it seems I implied you did anything wrong ,, I havent , I was just curious, and your response answers that ,thanks. 

 

Hi Stosh,

 

There is no implication,

Whatever the equation.

Healthy curiosity is okay.

Whoever called into play.

Not only with cats.

To catch dirty rats.

 

- LimA