What exactly is emptiness?

[allinone]

18 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

Emptiness is this. You have a dream, you meet there something, eat something, have fun, sex or anything but when you woke up from that after night and realized that was only a dream without substances that's emptiness. This existence is too empty like a dream and you can realize the same way to wake up. I wish everybody could experience it. 

 

yep substances comes way later.

[SeekerOfHealing]

No. No substance come later as there is nothing in whole existence which is real or have substance beside your imagination. Only few people in the world been in state of true emptiness (when whole world disappears, all people and everything) and there is nothing more to do. The whole work is done after that. 

 

If you think anything comes after that then you are making up things in your mind without direct experience. 

[allinone]

1 minute ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

No. No substance come later as there is nothing in whole existence which is real or have substance beside your imagination. Only few people in the world been in state of true emptiness (when whole world disappears, all people and everything) and there is nothing more to do. The whole work is done after that. 

 

If you think anything comes after that then you are making up things in your mind without direct experience. 

 

yes i am making up things, because uncreated things are delusion.

[SeekerOfHealing]

There is no such thing as uncreated things. If something is not created then it's not existent. 

[allinone]

Just now, SeekerOfHealing said:

There is no such thing as uncreated things. If something is not created then it's not existent. 

 

ok sensei.

[allinone]

19 minutes ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

No. No substance come later as there is nothing in whole existence which is real or have substance beside your imagination. Only few people in the world been in state of true emptiness (when whole world disappears, all people and everything) and there is nothing more to do. The whole work is done after that. 

 

If you think anything comes after that then you are making up things in your mind without direct experience. 

 

I agree with you. Substance isn't the last thing either. So i assume you had substance, and know all cavities in your body and functions. So i should ask some specific questions?

[taoguy]

Before this thread goes way out of hand, let's quote some masters:

 

Quote

“in the universal womb that is boundless space
all forms of matter and energy occur
as flux of the four elements,
but all are empty forms, absent in reality:
all phenomena, arising in pure mind, are like that.

just as dream is a part of sleep,
unreal in its arising,
so all and everything is pure mind,
never separated from it,
and without substance or attribute.

experience is neither mind nor anything but mind;
it is a vivid display of emptiness, like magical illusion,
in the very moment inconceivable and unutterable.
all experience arising in the mind,
at its inception, know it as emptiness!” 

 

- Longchenpa

 

Quote

“pure mind is like the empty sky,
without memory, supreme meditation;
it is our own nature, unstirring, uncontrived,
and wherever that abides is the superior mind,
one in buddhahood without any sign,
one in view free of limiting elaboration,
one in meditation free of limiting ideation,
one in conduct free of limiting endeavor,
and one in fruition free of limiting attainment.

vast! spacious!
released as it stands!
with neither realization nor non-realization;
experience consummate! no mind!
it is open to infinity.” 

- Longchenpa

 

Quote

How can you, Angulimāla, know emptiness which is the non-existence of anything? Then Angulimāla said to Mañjuśrī-kumārabhūta, “Suppose, for example, that there was a downpour from the clouds and a man, foolish in nature, picked up some hail-stones, thinking that they were beryl. Then taking these into his house, he thought to himself that he should store them somewhere since they were too cold to be held, and so he put them into a jar. Having seen those hail-stones melt, he thought to himself that they were devoid of existence (śūnya) and became silent. [As for real beryls, he had the notion that they too were non-existent.] Likewise, venerable Mañjuśrī, by cultivating extreme emptiness and continually considering things to be empty, one will behold the utter destruction of all phenomena. Though liberation is not empty, one will see and think it to be empty.”

- Angumaliya Sutra (Mahayana)

 

 

Quote

Here the non-actuality of the entities
Of persons and of phenomena is [one] emptiness.
The [ultimately] existent entity of those non-actual entities
Is an emptiness other than that.

15. Concerning that, because all things included among persons and phenomena
do not at all exist and are not established in the mode of subsistence,
they are empty of their own entities; they do not appear to a
consciousness of conventional emptiness and the conventional mode of
subsistence. The basis of the emptiness of those phenomena-the
noumenal entity abiding forever-is not empty of itself, but is empty of
all adventitious phenomena, due to which it appears to a consciousness
of the ultimate, the basis of emptiness, and the mode of subsistence.
Thus, the fifteenth emptiness, the emptiness of non-entities; is the
meaning of the frequent statement,’ “The non-existence of something
in something is the emptiness of that.” This which is the self-entity
emptiness [or emptiness of its own entity] is the conventional self emptiness.

16. The sixteenth, the emptiness that is the [ultimate] nature of nonentities that is, the emptiness that is the ultimate nature opposite from
non-entities] is the meaning of the frequent statement, “That which is
the remainder in [place of] that always exists here.” This which is the
other-entity emptiness [or emptiness of other entities] is the ultimate
other-emptiness.

- Bodhisattva Maitreya

 

Quote

How is one misoriented with regard to emptiness? Whatever monastic practitioners of virtue or brahmins do not assert the emptiness of whatsoever and also do not assert what is empty of whatsoever are misoriented with regard to emptiness. Why? Because it is correct that the emptiness of whatsoever is an emptiness of the nonexistent and what is empty is an emptiness that is existent.if all did not exist, what would be empty of what in what? That would not be fit to be the emptiness of that. Consequently such [persons] are misoriented with regard to emptiness. What is proper orientation with regard to emptiness? Those who correctly perceive that the non-existence of something in whatsoever is empty of that and know reality just as it is-that is, that the remainder really exists are non-erroneously oriented to emptiness exactly as it is.

- Bodhisattva Asanga

 

 

[Marblehead]

31 minutes ago, taoguy said:

Before this thread goes way out of hand, let's quote some masters:

 

I could easily help take it way out by mentioning fullness but I have been trying to be nice.

 

(It has been a pretty nice discussion.)

 

[Stonehouse]

Emptiness is discussed differently depending on the school or even the lineage within the school. Although I know very little about Taoism, what I have learned so far accords nicely with what has been taught to me by my teachers in the Soto School of Zen Buddhism. 

Instead of embarassing myself with my own awkward interpretations, I would just like to offer a passage from a poem titled "Song of the Grass-Roof Hermitage" by Shitou Xiqian, an Ancestor in my lineage and student of the last Patriarch, Huineng, who is credited with articulating our school's undersetanding of Emptiness. This poem is chanted now and again in our Monasteries, and it's the best way I've ever heard emptiness discussed. 

 

Quote

Turn around the light to shine within, then just return.
The vast inconceivable source can't be faced or turned away from.
[...]
Thousands of words, myriad interpretations,
Are only to free you from obstructions.
If you want to know the undying person in the hut,
Don't separate from this skin bag here and now.

Another passage that I have found helpful is from "Genjo Koan" by the Founder of our School, Dogen Zenji:
 

Quote

 Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water [...] The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.

More recently, Translator and teacher Kaz Tanahashi has translated Shunyata as "Boundlessness." This is a helpful pointer, but maybe a bit too on the nose. 

The point is, all dharmas are marked by emptiness, which is to say that they are not separate but are all part of the dynamic flow of existence, the Way, which is fully realized in each moment. Thus to practice one thing is to practice completely. Even to say this is to defile such practice with words. 

I hope I have contributed in some way. If what I have said doesn't accord with your understanding, please forget it. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Stonehouse
Some additional comments beneath the passages.

[windwalker]

 

"This religion, that religion, there are various kinds but at their deepest points they are all settled in one conclusion.

At any rate, when one practices discipline and moves from the beginner's territory to immovable wisdom, he makes a return and falls back to the level of the beginning, the abiding place."

http://www.alexandrosmarinos.com/TheUnfetteredMind.pdf

 

A question asked to a zen master by a master of sword 

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by windwalker

[already]

emptiness means to have your shit together

[THACS]

Emptiness is very small to very large and also contains both.  It's Fundamental Laws of Existence:

1. It's the interdependence of existence.

2. the impermanence of existence.

3. the cycles of existence.

Emptiness also contains Quantum Mechanics, since you are a quantum form, your mind is a quantum form and your consciousness also.  How everything fits together and arises. Fundamentals of Emptiness are used to dissolve negative emotions.  Emptiness is all that was, is and will ever be.

 

Emptiness is Not nihilism, Emptiness destroys nihilism.

When the word "Empty" is used, it may not mean a void, but a fundamental of Emptiness.

One has told lama's to define the words they use, so that the monkey mind doesn't distort the meaning.

This is Emptiness in simplicity:

 

Emptiness
“People (impermanence) create the Ignorance (Impermanence) that covers up Enlightenment (Permanence)”  

 

Impermanence = Impermanence
Not Permanent = Not Permanent
Or
Impermanence creates Impermanence
Not Permanent creates Not Permanent

 

As people are born, live and die, a cycle of Impermanence.  People are Impermanence.  A mother and father together create a baby, the mother, father and the baby, Impermanence.  When a building is destroyed, the building is also Impermanence.  As a flower grows from a seed, it too is impermanence.  You can see impermanence, you can smell impermanence, you can touch impermanence, you can hear impermanence and even taste impermanence.  Your thoughts are impermanence, your situations are impermanence.  Impermanence surrounds you, impermanence you create and others create impermanence for you.

Form or Body is Impermanence
Form or Body creates pain and suffering
Pain and suffering is also Impermanence
Impermanence = People = Form = Suffering = Impermanence

 

You create attachment, attachment is impermanence. The attachment to impermanence causes suffering. If you can easily understand what is impermanence, to realize impermanence just look around.  Everything you see, hear, touch, taste and feel, ask yourself “is it impermanence? Can it be destroyed?”. 

 

Test out the above, maybe you will start to realize the vastness of Emptiness.

[dawei]

Emptiness is something that cannot be described... Like Dao.

 

Things described are not emptiness.

[C T]

Forms do not appear spontaneously, nor do they suddenly dissappear. They appear and subsequently part, and ultimately dissolve when conditions for their arising align. There isn't a separate set of conditions for the dissolution of forms. That which we recognise as 'form' is made up of the dissolution of many things other than 'form'. Let's call these 'things' Non-forms. Because of habitual tendencies, the mind seldom realise how inseparable and seamless Form and Non-forms co-arise, exist for a duration (what we habitually call 'time'), and then seemingly, in our eyes, dissipate or dissolve. It's as if this process is 3 distinct, separate occurrences. This is of course not wrong, but simply how we have been habituated to see things - in fragmented vision.

 

Where fragmented vision is present, Emptiness, or that which co-arise with Form, cannot be recognised. Where vision is restored fully, awareness of Empty-ness naturally occurs. This awareness is sometimes called Wisdom, Prajna, third eye etc.

 

In following a spiritual path, or taking up Dharma study, for example, people are actually attempting to restore their seemingly fragmented views of life. They have recognised how frustrating and limiting their fixations and habits are, and wish to heal their metaphysical sight. So if you were to ask one whose vision have been healed, "What do you see clearly now?", chances are, if the healing has been authentic, the answer will be, "Emptiness". 

[Limahong]

29 minutes ago, dawei said:

Things described are not emptiness.

 

Hi dawei,

 

Thank you for thinking thus.

 

I started Buddhist chanting only recently and I have difficulties reading the sutras in Mandarin. I 'woo-woo arh-arh' along.

 

I believe that I am in the right grove as at the nascent stages I was overhelmed with emotions and tears flowed.

 

Of late I tried the Heart Sutra in which the word 'emptiness' (kong) appears quite prominently. I chant it now more respectfully with 'OM'. But I am told in no uncertain terms that I must follow the words of the Heart Sutra (at least in hanyu pingin).

 

As the person was so certain with his/her dictation to me, smilingly I responded thus:

(i) The Heart Sutra is much about emptiness.

(ii) Yet you used so many words to chant.

(iv) But I used only 'OM'.

(v) Who is more empty? 

(vi) Who is chanting the Heart Sutra more correctly?

 

The person murdered me with the eyes. Henceforth I am left alone in peace.

 

- LimA

[windwalker]

17 minutes ago, Limahong said:

Who is chanting the Heart Sutra more correctly?

 

the one who is not talking about it on line

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, windwalker said:

the one who is not talking about it on line

 

Hi windwalker,

 

You are one up on me. Why? Now you walk with the wind and I crawl with the catepillars.

But you watch out. Soon I will be a butterfly and I will fly with the wind.

 

Good day.

 

- LimA

 

[Limahong]

4 hours ago, C T said:

So if you were to ask one whose vision have been healed, "What do you see clearly now?", chances are, if the healing has been authentic, the answer will be, "Emptiness". 

 

Hi CT,

 

Thank you for your post. I can follow your trend of thoughts.

 

If an ophthalmologist were to ask the above question ...

 

- LimA

[C T]

21 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi CT,

 

Thank you for your post. I can follow your trend of thoughts.

 

If an ophthalmologist were to ask the above question ...

 

- LimA

Lol.. If it was me, I'd probably give some conditioned response 

Edited September 19, 2017 by C T

[Rickie]

A box full of junk is a box full of junk.  An empty box is just a box.  Emptiness is simply getting the junk out of your mind. 

[Stosh]

Quietude

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

Quietude

 

Hi Stosh,

 

"The Tao is clear, yet this clarity requires you to sweep away all your clutter. At all times watch out for your own stupidity, be careful of how your mind jumps around. When nothing occurs to involve your mind, you return to true awareness. When unified mindfulness is purely real, you comprehend the great restoration. The ridiculous ones are those who try to cultivate quietude - as long as body and mind are unstable, it is madness to go into the mountains.” 
-  Liu Yiming, Awakening to the Tao

 

- LimA

Edited September 19, 2017 by Limahong
Enhancement of sentence.

[Stosh]

The key word is TRY. 

[Limahong]

4 minutes ago, Stosh said:

The key word is TRY.

 

Hi Stosh,

 

But of course.

 

 

 

- LimA

[allinone]

when you want to write something you need background.

there are things what already have a background

and things what doesn't have background 

---

also things appear and disappear in successions. Also what you see or experience is not the truth or reality or existence what doesn't at some point cease to exist. It is possible to see the vehicle and where it is via backgrounds, and see the nonexistence what doesn't have material background - basically a certain influence of the sun disappears before the visuals of a sun disappears behind the clouds etc.