Criteria for mastery

[phore]

Over the years I've seen quite a few people rise up as masters, grandmasters, gurus and the like.  I have basically been presented with two views on this matter. 

 

1.  A master is a person with a certain degree of learning and skill, be it in martial arts, NLP, Academia, Chi Gong, etcetera. 

 

2.  A master is a person who is one with the Dao and is immortal. (See also living buddha, or saint)

 

In many cases, particularly in the case of Asian martial and cultural arts, somebody achieved mastery by the first definition and then proceeds to believe, act and be accepted as a master by the second definition.  

 

I have spent many years of my life studying eastern philosophy, culture, and martial arts and have found an explanation for this that I tend to find acts as a functional guide to such matters.

 

In Chinese history there was an ancient attitude that China is the sole civilized world and everything beyond its borders is barbarian wilderness.   This attitude elevates Chinese culture to a divine status within the context of said definition.  Because of this anyone who wished to have any influence and rank in ancient Chinese society must be well versed in the traditional rituals, arts and knowledges of their ancestors.  

 

These arts, by the very fact that they are Chinese are divine knowledge.  Anyone who masters martial arts skills, caligraphy, or has masterful knowledge of the Chinese classics is essentially the divine in human format.   This divinity is revealed in the form of artful documents, breaking bricks, healing the sick and governing according to precedent.  

 

This attitude is very Confucian.  

 

It is also an attitude that has many parallels with Socialism in the context of western academic and scientific communities, as well as fundamentalist Abrahamic religions.

 

According to academic institutions, the only people qualified to guide a person into the framework of their own soul (Psychology) or to heal the sick (allopathic medicine) are people who have completed extensive socialization rituals in the framework of an academic context.  

 

The foundations of western scientific and social knowledge are based upon our civilization being the most civilized civilization ever to have existed in millions of years of human evolution.  In fact, according to the Marxist ideal that has formed the bases of social sciences, civilization did not even begin until Mesopotamia, and after many failed attempts finally reached a pinnacle in the modern west. 

 

On the other hand, I have heard many followers of fundamentalist Abrahamic religions consider their own form of cultural knowledge to be the only valid viewpoint and that all others that disagree with them are incorrect.  

 

From this framework I have to question the validity of claims made by masters of Asian cultural and martial arts that their knowledge somehow qualifies them to spiritually guide others.  I even question the validity of Qigong and yoga masters as to the validity of any claims to spirituality, as the modern incarnations of these arts are more oriented towards health, or martial arts, and less oriented towards spirituality.  

 

Even if someone were a master of a spiritual tradition, I would still question their validity as a living buddha, immortal wayfarer or saint.  Tradition in my experience is not the same as reality.  

 

Many people who quest after spiritual knowledge in the context of a traditional framework often find that people may possess an authentic degree of magical or energetic skill while still being a pitiful excuse of a human being.  Horror stories of encounters with life-force stealing vampires, dark sorcerers, cult leaders, and sex maniacs abound in modern and ancient literature surrounding this subject.  

 

In fiction, which is drawn directly from collective dream consciousness, and often reveals the archetypal nature of situations, sorcerers, wizards, witches, shamans, priests, and magicians are just as often evil as they are good.  

 

In the Teachings of Don Juan by Carlos Castaneda, Don Juan (a Yaqui Shaman) defines the four enemies of a Man of Knowledge.

 

1. Fear

2. Clarity

3. Power

4. Old Age

 

Clarity and Power are the domains associated with spiritual teachers and sorcerers.  

 

Don Juan makes the point that upon achieving clarity, the act of seeing clearly must be treated as almost a lie or it will just blind a person and they will fall into an egotistical path enhanced by their own clarity.  

 

Power the second enemy, must be recognized as an enemy as well or the power will just control the person and bolster their egos.  

 

An egotistical person who believes in absoluteness of their own vision, and the greatness of their own power, is unable to achieve oneness with the Dao/universe/God/Goddess, and is very likely to fall into the trap of becoming a dark sorcerer by their tendency to use their clarity and power for their own personal gain.  

 

When a person fundamentally believes that they are better than everyone else and had a legitimate level of skill in esoteric, energetic, magical or spiritual arts they inevitably become the archetypal dark sorcerer, cult leader, or televangelist.

 

In order to achieve oneness with the divine and become an authentic Master of Dao a person must forget the small mind and merge with the true knowledge of the shining mind.  

 

Some simple criteria for identifying this are laid out in the Dao-De-Ching, the Wen-Tzu, and The Chuang-Tzu

these probably include humbleness, knowing that they know nothing, simplicity,love, kindness, compassion, detachment, balance and mysterious power.  

 

On the other hand cult leaders, dark sorcerers and televangelists are much easier to identify.  Their qualities commonly include a belief in their superiority, a belief in the superiority of their knowledge, tradition, or power, a belief in their unbending commitment to the greater good even in acts of selfishness or hatred, and a tendency to dis-empower the people around them who are perceived to have lesser degrees of knowledge or divinity.  They are additionally easy to offend, loud, brag a lot, and like to set themselves up as the center of attention.  They may in fact posses authentic power.

 

What are some criteria you use to judge mastery?

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by phore

[windwalker]

A lot of questioning, by what do you use to question

have you met any masters or master level people?

 

Quote

In order to achieve oneness with the divine and become an authentic Master of Dao a person must forget the small mind and merge with the true knowledge of the shining mind.  

 

how does one say this with out having or being a master 

why would a daoist master give rules for being "authentic" seems like

one wouldn't care allowing those who can see it to know it, and those who cant not know it.

 

"The wise student hears of the Tao and practises it diligently.
The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again.
The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud.
If there were no laughter, the Tao would not be what it is."

Edited July 9, 2017 by windwalker

[RiverSnake]

Excellent post, thanks for sharing it. So far in my studies i have not found a "finish line" for cultivation. You mentioned merging with the Tao but IME there always seems to be deeper levels. 

 

The difficulty with the term master (in my mind) is that it implies a sense of being static or finished. Rather i think it would be more useful a term to describe someone whom is skillful in a particular field. In saying that, i have meet many people in the spheres of martial and spiritual cultivation that were "masterful" yet still were quite flawed (at least from my perception). 

 

IMO you can be a jackass and masterful of your craft simultaneously. Though such flaws also naturally limit the level of mastery in a specific field. I have meet practitioners with 70+ years of experience and although i couldn't help but marvel at there skill...i simultaneously wanted nothing to do with them because they were jackasses. From my personal experience when it comes to gauging "masters" i come into contact with i find that there are a couple of things that really resonate with me and are a sign of a "groovy master" versus a regular "master": 

 

An easy sense of humor, the ability to crack a joke, relax and be irreverent about things. Practitioners with that stone face buddha attitude....it's usually a red flag in my view. Individuals with an open mind and a curiosity about there craft and the craft of others...there is always a sense of playfulness and open exploration about the path rather than being stiff about how they know everything. When people tell me there way is "best" and that others paths are invalid (talking shit)....that is a major red flag.

 

Basically people whom you can hang out and have fun with without the stifling pretense of spiritual mumbo jumbo. They'll talk openly and sincerely about there craft as would anyone whom is passionate and joyful in what they do. So i'd make that basic division of Groovy Master vs Regular Master. It can be a difficult topic as both can be extremely skilled, but i choose the groovy master everyday of the week.

 

Of course for those with ability you can look at someone and energetically examine them and get a ballpark estimate of where there at....but that's not a very useful metric for the beginner.  Cheers. 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by OldSaint

[Mudfoot]

You will find some opinions of what mastery and master is in my PPD. 

 

I have more,  just haven't got the time to add them. 

[phore]

18 hours ago, windwalker said:

A lot of questioning, by what do you use to question

have you met any masters or master level people?

 

 

how does one say this with out having or being a master 

why would a daoist master give rules for being "authentic" seems like

one wouldn't care allowing those who can see it to know it, and those who cant not know it.

 

"The wise student hears of the Tao and practises it diligently.
The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again.
The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud.
If there were no laughter, the Tao would not be what it is."

These are some interesting points.  

I have met a several people with extraordinary levels of skill in energy work, kung fu, and meditation.  I can think of one person in particular that was considered a master by many people around him who primarily functioned in the areas of kung fu and energy work.  

 

My initial impression was that he was full of himself and relatively blind to reality.  I gave the old guy a chance, because I thought maybe I do not have the criteria to judge him accurately.  

 

After getting to know him, I recognized that he was basically using traditional Chinese teacher to student relationships to sleep with young female students, practice sexual vampirism, extort money from his wealthy followers, and start his own cult.  I also began to recognize that he lied extensively about his actual levels of skill and experience.  

 

Now in the context, I believe that a dao master probably would recognize that rules were only there to make you think carefully before breaking them.  The qualities and frameworks that I described represent a number of what I would describe as archetypal tendencies, and not rules as such.

 

 I do not describe myself as a dao master so I am free from any rules or expectations of what a dao master should or should not do.  I can say really stupid stuff for instance, or even laugh in the face of alleged wisdom and nobody will take offense because I am just a fool pretending to be a fool and not a fool pretending to be god incarnate.

 

If I were pretending to be wise, I would have to practice diligently.  In the places where my diligence was inadequate to live up to my self image I would have to substitute a facade of seriousness.  Upon taking my wisdom seriously, I would naturally expect others to take my wisdom seriously.  Eventually I would probably get so caught up in seriousness, that diligence would be all but forgotten.

 

Since I know unequivocally that I am in fact a fool and not a wise person, I'm off the hook.  I do not have to strive towards diligence and lofty wisdom, so I can laugh, play, and enjoy my life.  If I become serious, I am just a fool pretending to be serious, so no one will take me seriously.  Therefore seriousness is a dead end for one like me.  Laughter is the Dao of fools so I can participate effortlessly in mirth and joy with no need for mentalities like practice, diligence, seriousness, or even wisdom. 

 

 

17 hours ago, OldSaint said:

Excellent post, thanks for sharing it. So far in my studies i have not found a "finish line" for cultivation. You mentioned merging with the Tao but IME there always seems to be deeper levels. 

 

The difficulty with the term master (in my mind) is that it implies a sense of being static or finished. Rather i think it would be more useful a term to describe someone whom is skillful in a particular field. In saying that, i have meet many people in the spheres of martial and spiritual cultivation that were "masterful" yet still were quite flawed (at least from my perception). 

 

IMO you can be a jackass and masterful of your craft simultaneously. Though such flaws also naturally limit the level of mastery in a specific field. I have meet practitioners with 70+ years of experience and although i couldn't help but marvel at there skill...i simultaneously wanted nothing to do with them because they were jackasses. From my personal experience when it comes to gauging "masters" i come into contact with i find that there are a couple of things that really resonate with me and are a sign of a "groovy master" versus a regular "master": 

 

An easy sense of humor, the ability to crack a joke, relax and be irreverent about things. Practitioners with that stone face buddha attitude....it's usually a red flag in my view. Individuals with an open mind and a curiosity about there craft and the craft of others...there is always a sense of playfulness and open exploration about the path rather than being stiff about how they know everything. When people tell me there way is "best" and that others paths are invalid (talking shit)....that is a major red flag.

 

Basically people whom you can hang out and have fun with without the stifling pretense of spiritual mumbo jumbo. They'll talk openly and sincerely about there craft as would anyone whom is passionate and joyful in what they do. So i'd make that basic division of Groovy Master vs Regular Master. It can be a difficult topic as both can be extremely skilled, but i choose the groovy master everyday of the week.

 

Of course for those with ability you can look at someone and energetically examine them and get a ballpark estimate of where there at....but that's not a very useful metric for the beginner.  Cheers. 

 

 

 

 

I agree with many of your criteria.  

 

Now interesting enough, I've met people with the stone face attitude who had good hearts and legitimate skills.  However their seriousness seemed to lead to a level of duality in their teachings.  

 

On the other hand the aforementioned cult leader I encountered, cracked jokes and was generally charismatic.  However He often bragged about the superiority of his teachings, and would have set off many of the red flags in your criteria.  

 

I also agree that I have never seen a finish line practitioner, but I suspect that if there is a a merging with the Tao, it probably involves continuous following of said Tao.  It would be a bit contradictory to Merge with the way, then set up shop on the side of the road.  If the way is eternal, then there probably is no finish line, just freedom to continue the journey.

 

12 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

You will find some opinions of what mastery and master is in my PPD. 

 

I have more,  just haven't got the time to add them. 

Ill check it out.  

 

Thanks for the input everyone  

[RiverSnake]

It's also useful to look at the term or gauge of mastery within each particular system. I've known people to attend a couple weekends of Reiki workshops, receive several transmissions and then be considered masters and ready to teach....and they are masters....within the context of the system they are practicing and what is expected of them. 

 

Yet when we make use of the word mastery in the nebulous spiritual context then others might debate such a persons level of skill. When looking at different systems it can be useful to have a checklist as to what qualifies a person. A series of steps that grant one the title of mastery, much like an apprenticeship of old in which the student needs to demonstrate certain feats. 

 

This can vary from system to system. Each system might look for different abilities or qualities within the student which in his eyes mean he is ready to set off into the world as a master in his own right. 

 

Having such a checklist can be easier accomplished with physical crafts (Blacksmith, Wood Carver, Computer Programmer...etc)....but i think it's important to have a system of gauges within the subtle arts as well that is specific to each system. Examples of this may be the development of subtle senses, opening of specific channels, ability to project chi, healing capabilities...etc.

[phore]

5 hours ago, OldSaint said:

It's also useful to look at the term or gauge of mastery within each particular system. I've known people to attend a couple weekends of Reiki workshops, receive several transmissions and then be considered masters and ready to teach....and they are masters....within the context of the system they are practicing and what is expected of them. 

 

Yet when we make use of the word mastery in the nebulous spiritual context then others might debate such a persons level of skill. When looking at different systems it can be useful to have a checklist as to what qualifies a person. A series of steps that grant one the title of mastery, much like an apprenticeship of old in which the student needs to demonstrate certain feats. 

 

This can vary from system to system. Each system might look for different abilities or qualities within the student which in his eyes mean he is ready to set off into the world as a master in his own right. 

 

Having such a checklist can be easier accomplished with physical crafts (Blacksmith, Wood Carver, Computer Programmer...etc)....but i think it's important to have a system of gauges within the subtle arts as well that is specific to each system. Examples of this may be the development of subtle senses, opening of specific channels, ability to project chi, healing capabilities...etc.

This expands upon my first post where I describe type 1 and type 2 masters.  Your basically pointing out the fluffy end of type 1 mastery.  3 seminars to Reiki mastery, 2 seminars to NLP Mastery, 500 hours to yoga mastery within the context of commonly accepted modern definitions of mastery within certain systems.  

 

Now Reiki (universal energy), Neurolinguistic Programming and Yoga are all arts that a person could spend a lifetime learning and mastering new aspects of.  

 

So what we need to do now is revise our running definitions of mastery to something like the following:

1. A master is a title conferred upon a person upon completing a course of study, with or without a degree of practical experience.  

 

2. A master is a title conferred upon a person who has achieved a consummate degree of skill at a certain art (such as qigong, medicine, martial arts or whatever).  

 

3.  A master is a person who is a spiritual immortal, who acts as a guide to the higher realms and spiritual reality.  

 

Now these definitions have some degree of overlapping.

For exampleIn the case of reiki (theoretically) the connection is opened to the higher self and the ensuing mingling of energies within the life of the individual constitutes new degree of spiritual connection and power.

 

 In NLP on the other hand cutting edge learning models are used to hypnotically install a set of learnings, beliefs, and attitudes which allow for mastery to develop within the context of NLP again theoretically transforming the individuals life in general. 

 

So a Type 1 master might converge upon the territory of a type 2 master, and in the case of certain folks might even converge upon the territory of a type 3 master.  

 

Zen, for example if we look in the old books, is conferred in a series of openings which make all of the leanings one has received about zen irrelevant.  In many cases Zen monks upon achieving enlightenment have burned their collection of books, and lived as mindless wayfarers detached and carefree.

 

Hui-Neng (6th patriarch) received penetration into the meaning of zen upon chance hearing the Diamond Sutra recited one day.  He joined a monastery and shelled rice until the 5th patriarch took notice of him and transmitted the true teaching beyond the doctrine as well as the robe and bowl overnight.  

Thus in a series of two classes one lasting only a few minutes and the other lasting a few hours he became the 6th linear heir to Damos lineage.   

 

This is less training than a reiki master receives, and yet he is remembered as one of the most influential masters in zen history.  His teachings constitute the only zen "sutra" as well.

 

Now Hui-neng retreated into hiding after receiving the robe and the bowl for a period of 9 years.  This was partially due to people trying to assassinate him and take the robe and bowl by force, and partially so that he could integrate his illumination.  

 

There is a common saying in zen "There is a sudden and a gradual."

 

So Hui-neng actually falls into all three categories and simultaneously makes categories irrelevant.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by phore
punctuation

[RiverSnake]

Yes, one of the main things people can possibly take from this thread is that there is a large field of ambiguity in the subtle arts and highly varied levels of skill. Don't take any thing at face value....but rather with a grain of salt.  

[Mudfoot]

9 hours ago, phore said:

 

Hui-Neng (6th patriarch) received penetration into the meaning of zen upon chance hearing the Diamond Sutra recited one day.  He joined a monastery and shelled rice until the 5th patriarch took notice of him and transmitted the true teaching beyond the doctrine as well as the robe and bowl overnight.  

Thus in a series of two classes one lasting only a few minutes and the other lasting a few hours he became the 6th linear heir to Damos lineage.   

 

This is less training than a reiki master receives, and yet he is remembered as one of the most influential masters in zen history. 

 

And the years spent in the monastery,  practicing meditation? 

 

Chan stories tend to focus on the sudden enlightenment part,  not mentioning years, decades, of hard and frustrating work. 

[phore]

19 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

And the years spent in the monastery,  practicing meditation? 

 

Chan stories tend to focus on the sudden enlightenment part,  not mentioning years, decades, of hard and frustrating work. 

According to the Sutra, Hiu-Neng got the sudden realization of buddha nature, before ever entering a monestary.  His stay at Hongren consisted of 8 months of doing odd jobs.  He wasn't an actual monk to my reading.  

 

He recieved the teaching and the title after composing a poem: 

Quote

The first chapter of the Platform Sutra tells the well-known apocryphal story of the Dharma-transmission from Hongren to Hui-neng. Hongren asked his students to...

... write me a stanza (gatha) [...] He who understands what the Essence of Mind is will be given the robe (the insignia of the Patriarchate) and the Dharma (the ultimate teaching of the Chan school), and I shall make him the Sixth Patriarch.

Only Shenxiu wrote a poem, anonymously on the wall in the middle of the night.^[7] It stated:^[8]

身是菩提樹，　The body is a Bodhi tree,
心如明鏡臺。　The mind a standing mirror bright.
時時勤拂拭，　At all times polish it diligently,
勿使惹塵埃。　And let no dust alight.^{[citation needed]}

After having read this poem aloud to him, Hui-neng asked an officer to write another gatha on the wall for him, next to Shenxiu's, which stated:^[9]

菩提本無樹，　Bodhi is originally without any tree;
明鏡亦非臺。　The bright mirror is also not a stand.
本來無一物，　Originally there is not a single thing —
何處惹塵埃。　Where could any dust be attracted?^[

From the wiki article . 

 

He did spend 9 years in relative isolation living among a tribe of hunters, while hiding in the woods.  He probably carried out the gradual integration phase there.  

 

After 9 years he emerged and started teaching.  

 

HuiNeng is probably one of the primary sources of the sudden enlightenment emphasis of the Chan/Zen sect.  

 

My reading of Zen books seems to indicate that the gradual must follow the sudden or the student can not become a true master.  There is also a recurring theme that true zen practice does not even begin until the moment of the sudden satori.  

 

[phore]

On 7/10/2017 at 5:33 PM, OldSaint said:

Yes, one of the main things people can possibly take from this thread is that there is a large field of ambiguity in the subtle arts and highly varied levels of skill. Don't take any thing at face value....but rather with a grain of salt.  

One of the take-aways I have received from this thread is that while these criteria may not be able to identify a true master, It may provide a framework for filtering out the phonies.

[RiverSnake]

46 minutes ago, phore said:

One of the take-aways I have received from this thread is that while these criteria may not be able to identify a true master, It may provide a framework for filtering out the phonies.

 

It is an interesting conundrum....there is a saying: "You get the teacher you deserve." Just like everything else in life you fall in the slot you resonate with....fake students get fake teachers....the sincere can usually see through the bullshit. 

 

For the individual whom keeps running into fake teachers and getting taking advantage of.....IMO it profits them to stop looking outward....take some time with basic techniques to shift there vibration (several years if necessary) so they can even be capable of sifting the chaff from the wheat. 

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

On 7/8/2017 at 6:52 PM, phore said:

 Horror stories of encounters with life-force stealing vampires, dark sorcerers, cult leaders, and sex maniacs abound in modern and ancient literature surrounding this subject.  

 

 

In the Teachings of Don Juan by Carlos Castaneda,

 

 

Wow Castaneda was a living horror story! Funny that you then turn to him for your judgment of "masters."

 

 

Quote

 

The dark legacy of Carlos Castaneda - Salon.com

www.salon.com/2007/04/12/castaneda/

Apr 12, 2007 - Under don Juan's tutelage, Castaneda took peyote, talked to .... Carlos tries to persuade the reluctant don Juan to teach him about .... blond haircuts similar to those later worn by the Heaven's Gate cult. .... Jennings and Wallace also report that Castaneda directed the inner circle's sex lives in great detail.

 

 

[Mudfoot]

PSounds like a traditional spiritual master to me. 

 

First you develope the power of Scam. 

 

Then you get sex, drugs, money, attention and power over peoples minds. 

[phore]

9 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

Wow Castaneda was a living horror story! Funny that you then turn to him for your judgment of "masters."

 

 

 

This tells a great story of the modern dark sorcerer archetype.

 Thanks.