Mair 9:1

[Marblehead]

A horse's hooves can tread upon frost and snow, its hair can withstand the wind and the cold.  It eats grass and drinks water; it prances about briskly.  This is a horse's true nature.  Though one might provide a horse with magnificent terraces and splendid bedrooms, they are of no use to it.  But then came Poleh, {{According to legend, he was the finest judge of horses in antiquity.}} who said, "I am skilled at training horses."  And men began to singe them, clip their hair, trim their hooves, and brand them.  They led them with bridles and hobbles, lined them up in stable and stall, resulting in the deaths of two or three out of ten.  They made the horses go hungry and thirsty, raced them, and galloped them, arrayed them in rows and columns.  In front were the tribulations of the bit and the ornamental halter, behind were the threats of the whip and the crop, resulting in the deaths of over half the horses.

The potter said, "I am skilled at working clay.  My round pieces fit the compass and my square pieces fit the L-square."  The carpenter said, "I am skilled at working wood.  My angular pieces fit the bevel and my straight pieces match the ruler."  Yet is it in the nature of clay and wood that they should fit the compass, the L-square, the bevel, and the ruler?  Nonetheless, generation after generation extol them, saying, "Poleh was skilled at training horses; the carpenter and the potter are skilled at working clay and wood."  This is also the error made by those who govern all under heaven.

I suspect, however, that those who are skilled at governing all under heaven would not do so.  Their people, having a constant nature, would weave cloth to wear and plow the land in order to eat.  This is called "common integrity."  They would remain unified and not split into factions; this condition we may style "natural freedom."  Therefore, in an age of ultimate integrity, they would walk with quiet confidence, look ahead with focused composure.  In such an age, there would be no paths and tunnels through the mountains, no boats or bridges to cross the swamps.  The myriad things would live in groups, their settlements lined up next to each other.  Birds and beasts would form groups, the grasses and trees would thrive.  Thus birds and beasts could be tamed but still wander about; one could climb up to the nests of magpies and peep in without disturbing them.

In a world of ultimate integrity, men would dwell together with the birds and the beasts.  They would come together in tribes with the myriad things.  What would they know of superior men and petty men?  Equally without knowledge, they would not stray from their integrity.  Equally without desire, this is called "the simplicity of the unhewn log."  With the simplicity of the unhewn log, the people would attain their nature.  Then along comes the sage, assiduous in his exercise of humaneness, plodding in his exercise of righteousness, and all under heaven begin to doubt.  Music {{The most elevated of the Confucian arts; highly ritualistic and symbolic; usually accompanied by elaborate dance, banners, and panoply.}} begins to multiply, rites begin to proliferate, and all under heaven begin to divide.  Therefore, if the simple, unhewn log remained intact, who would carve a sacrificial vessel from it?  If the white jade remained unimpaired, who would make scepters and tallies from it?  If the Way and integrity were not discarded, who would choose humaneness and righteousness?  If the attributes of our individual natures were not set aside, what use would there be for rites and music?  If the five colors were not confused, who would make colorful patterns?  If the five sounds were not confused, who would conform to the six pitch-pipes?  The carving of the unhewn log into instruments is the fault of the craftsman; the impairment of the Way and integrity with humaneness and righteousness is the error of the sage.

Returning to the subject of horses, if they are allowed to live on the open land, they eat the grass and drink the water.  When they are happy, they cross necks and rub against each other.  When they are angry, they turn back to back and kick each other.  The knowledge of horses amounts to this and no more.  But if you put a yoke upon them and array them evenly with little moon-mirrors on their foreheads, all they know is to try to break the cross-bar, twist out of the yoke, smash the chariot cover, expel the bit, and bite through the reins.  Therefore, to take the knowledge of a horse and make it behave like a brigand is the crime of Poleh.

In the time of the clansman Hohsŭ, {{A mythical ruler.}} when people stayed at home, they did not know what they were doing, and when they went outside, they did not know where they were going.  They filled their mouths with food and were happy, strolling about with their bellies stuffed tight as a drum.  The abilities of the people were this and no more.  Then along came the sages to rectify the form of all under heaven with their bowing and scraping to the rites and music.  They unveiled their humaneness and righteousness from on high to soothe the hearts of all under heaven, but the people began to be plodding in their fondness for knowledge.  They ended up contending for profit and then they could not be stopped.  This, too, is the error of the sages.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

This eloquent passage attempts to describe what we lose by pursuing conventional virtue, the sage here isn't the sage we think of as being ZZ or LZ , these sages are their brothers , these should be called 'great men of conventional knowledge' or something like that. To make this modern , we might consider oh,,

Neil deGrasse Tyson/

Quotes of his.. 

The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.

Curious that we spend more time congratulating people who have succeeded than encouraging people who have not.

We are part of this universe; we are in this universe, but perhaps more important than both of those facts, is that the universe is in us.

 

While the ideas still have brain behind them,  the values are subtly different from Zz and LZ . 

The modern world becomes ever more elaborate , dynamic , incredible ,, and yet more and more complicated,  relentless,  un-graspable.  

The reason why Central Park In New York was built, was not just to raise property values   but to provide escape from the environment we were-  even then -creating. 

 

I'm from New York , ,and I sometimes miss it ,, but you might also understand why,  I often would not , and This,  is the paradox of "the sages of conventional wisdom'. 

. 

[Marblehead]

Thing is, progress will not be stopped.  Most will always be looking for an easier way to do things.

 

There's not many of those small villages around any more.

 

Most people don't even know what their true nature is.

 

 

[Stosh]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Marblehead said:

Thing is, progress will not be stopped.  Most will always be looking for an easier way to do things.

 

There's not many of those small villages around any more.

 

Most people don't even know what their true nature is.

 

 

It might be nice to know what my true nature is.

Different formulas for figuring that out get presented, and the existance of this true nature is proclaimed or suggested. But I am not at all unsure that my true nature largely depends on the circumstances I find myself in. 

I think the buddhists might say I dont have a true nature, or that its some sort of vague principle that I dont really get. Or my true nature could be be the personality I locked in on as a kid. Or some sort of secret subconscius origin. Dunno.

The other possibility is that humans have instinct as animals do, but the big brain diverts us from that simple solution ,, though personally ,I think its a mutually exclusive situation.. instint was traded for the ability  to adapt and abstract.

 

[Marblehead]

9 hours ago, Stosh said:

It might be nice to know what my true nature is.

More important to just live it.

 

9 hours ago, Stosh said:

Different formulas for figuring that out get presented, and the existance of this true nature is proclaimed or suggested. But I am not at all unsure that my true nature largely depends on the circumstances I find myself in.

Yes, our true nature should shine through regardless of external conditions.  And we don't know what that is until we allow our self to respond to various situations spontaneously.

 

9 hours ago, Stosh said:

I think the buddhists might say I dont have a true nature, or that its some sort of vague principle that I dont really get.

Yeah, but the Buddhists are just as confused as we Taoists are.

 

9 hours ago, Stosh said:

Or my true nature could be be the personality I locked in on as a kid. Or some sort of secret subconscius origin. Dunno.

The other possibility is that humans have instinct as animals do, but the big brain diverts us from that simple solution ,, though personally ,I think its a mutually exclusive situation.. instint was traded for the ability  to adapt and abstract.

 

Many things here to consider concerning our development from childhood to adulthood.  We are told so many things and we experience so many things it would be next to impossible to analyze all that had contributed to who/what we are now.

 

I like to rely on my inner feelings.  If I am at peace with what I have said or done I feel I did the right thing; if I feel inner turmoil then I figure I have messed up.

 

[Stosh]

People are not accurate indicators of virtue , their own , or anyone else's , in light of this , I figure there can be no such thing. Virtue is a mirage. And Going one step more , the only thing that one can say about it is that one would have to judge themselves based on what makes them feel least uncomfortable. 

Which , I guess , is an agreement with what you said. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Stosh