Rebirth

[CedarTree]

*I am putting this in Daoist discussion because I principally would like to hear Daoist and other schools view points on this :)*

 

I am familiar with the Theravada view on Rebirth and also the Zen portrayal.

As someone that has pursued strong meditation based traditions such as Thai Forest and Antai-ji - Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery I have been able to experience a lot of the teachings and or at least understand them in both a logical way and experiential way.

Rebirth however has been a hard one for me. Not for disbelief but in achieving a level of experience and understanding in which it fits in smoothly into how I have come to understand the teachings both through study and experience.

I am hoping those knowledgeable in the other traditions can explain how it is talked about in their school and also experiences and or things that have helped deepen their understanding on this teaching.

 

Thank you friends

[ChiForce]

Are you saying that is rebirth possible and how it influences the MIND TRANSMISSION???       From my own experiences and intuitive insights,  rebirth is necessary for mind transmission.  Same for the Taoist system.  I mean....I completed my MCO when I woke up from a dream.  What I was dreaming??  The Han dynasty and seeing two "brothers" dressed in Han traditional clothing.  I woke up and had my first kundalinie energy rising or completed my MCO.    The rest was history.......

 

In the Tao, there was no rebirth.  The Tao was and is always there in the past, in the present, and in the future. 

[Marblehead]

I still hold to the concept of transmutation, not rebirth.

 

[ChiForce]

And I don't believe there is a merit system in Taoism that would dictate the nature of your rebirth in who and where though.  

[Marblehead]

28 minutes ago, ChiForce said:

And I don't believe there is a merit system in Taoism that would dictate the nature of your rebirth in who and where though.  

That is correct in the best of my understanding.  The processes will do what they need do.

 

[doc benway]

58 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I still hold to the concept of transmutation, not rebirth.

 

Not sure you can have one without the other...

If a baby is born and represents some sort of transmutation it is not a de novo manifestation.

It is something being reborn as something new.

It's really just a matter of semantics, so it seems to me.

 

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, CedarTree said:

*I am putting this in Daoist discussion because I principally would like to hear Daoist and other schools view points on this :)*

 

I am familiar with the Theravada view on Rebirth and also the Zen portrayal.

As someone that has pursued strong meditation based traditions such as Thai Forest and Antai-ji - Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery I have been able to experience a lot of the teachings and or at least understand them in both a logical way and experiential way.

Rebirth however has been a hard one for me. Not for disbelief but in achieving a level of experience and understanding in which it fits in smoothly into how I have come to understand the teachings both through study and experience.

I am hoping those knowledgeable in the other traditions can explain how it is talked about in their school and also experiences and or things that have helped deepen their understanding on this teaching.

 

Thank you friends

 

The challenge of reconciling rebirth with our personal views is that the teaching of rebirth comes from the perspective of the absolute, the non-dual. At least that is how I see it. From this perspective there is no individual, separate self, that is an illusion. Hence every birth is a rebirth, not of one particular collection of memories and conditioning, but of the that which is - sentience, knowing. Every being that comes out of this world feels it is "me." The subjective point of reference is a common experience among all sentient beings. That is what is reborn - me. 

 

While we are alive, we take action based on choices that affects the things and people around us. As new life blossoms, it is unavoidably affected by the wake of our choices so in that sense, the consequences of our actions affect our next life. Again, we need to look at this from the non-dual point of view and the effects of our actions affect us, over and over again. From the non-dual perspective, if I hurt any living creature i hurt myself. 

 

When we try to reconcile the idea of rebirth from the relative, individual perspective it all breaks down, at least for me. We need to begin proposing all sorts of explanations for things and run into paradox and gratuitous assertions. I don't find it of much value to look at it from that perspective, although many people do.

 

We all need different things at different times in our lives and if rebirth is challenging us enough and we feel like we're not penetrating it, I think it's fine to put it aside. We have enough to work with and practice, that we don't need to deal with everything, at least not at this moment. But if we do feel drawn to the topic, I think the place to start is to look at what it is that is reborn? What is before life and after death? What's in between, meaning who is asking these questions? If we can find the answer to that, we find the secret to rebirth.

 

 

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, CedarTree said:

*I am putting this in Daoist discussion because I principally would like to hear Daoist and other schools view points on this :)*

PS - most of my formal training and practice has been Daoist but in recent years I've focused more on Bönpo teachings and practices, and I don't claim to be an authority on either

[Marblehead]

9 hours ago, steve said:

It is something being reborn as something new.

 

From my perspective it is something becoming a part of something else.

 

 

[Rara]

15 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I still hold to the concept of transmutation, not rebirth.

 

How do you define transmutation, MH? I'm curious to know how "literal" your answer may be...

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, Rara said:

How do you define transmutation, MH? I'm curious to know how "literal" your answer may be...

Fair question.

 

The body dies.  End of Chi flow.  (No energy production.)  The energy produced by the decomposing body returns to the universe (wu).  What was our body becomes food for various life forms.  We become a part of those life forms.  A transmutation - still a part of a living thing. Just not me anymore - them.

 

The energy that returns to the universe may become an aspect of something else as well.  Maybe another person,   Maybe some strange animal or plant.  Death isn't a total end of the energy that we once were but it does become something completely different.  A transmutation.

 

Supposedly energy is eternal so I suppose one could say that we all are eternal.  But the "we", the "I am" keeps changing.  But that happens even when "I am" "me".

 

 

 

 

[Rara]

6 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Fair question.

 

The body dies.  End of Chi flow.  (No energy production.)  The energy produced by the decomposing body returns to the universe (wu).  What was our body becomes food for various life forms.  We become a part of those life forms.  A transmutation - still a part of a living thing. Just not me anymore - them.

 

The energy that returns to the universe may become an aspect of something else as well.  Maybe another person,   Maybe some strange animal or plant.  Death isn't a total end of the energy that we once were but it does become something completely different.  A transmutation.

 

Supposedly energy is eternal so I suppose one could say that we all are eternal.  But the "we", the "I am" keeps changing.  But that happens even when "I am" "me".

 

 

 

 

 

Sure, with good natural observation, may I suggest there is a "logical" spiritual element to what you're saying? It seems that way

[Marblehead]

24 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

Sure, with good natural observation, may I suggest there is a "logical" spiritual element to what you're saying? It seems that way

I intentionally avoid speaking of the "spiritual element".  But one may infer that I was speaking to it if one wishes to do so.

 

So many different spiritual belief systems out there and I do try hard to not offend any one's beliefs.

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

In a Taoist perspective all the collective energies and timing of a new birth would be very difficult to reassemble into a new birth  in a different time. We are reborn every day and have many past lives as we grow older in this lifetime.

 

Taoist tend not to speculate about after death.

 

the method is to know the end by going back to the beginning. Then there is before the beginning and before the beginning began.

 

Everyone knows where they came from..... the unknown, if it was important then it would be known. Take care of this life  and everything else will be taken care of.

[Gerard]

Same as anything else really:

 

https://goo.gl/images/zZBNx2

 

Write the word "rebirth" in the middle.

 

Hope this clarifies this issue a bit. 

[Cheshire Cat]

In my understanding in the field of rebirth, there's no solid experiential knowledge that one could gain from spiritual practice. 

There are meditation techniques which claim to give knowledge of past lives, but they're closer to random allucinations and mind delusions than factual experience.

 

Rebirth is a plain belief that you choose to hold in your heart as a pre-requisite to practice Buddhism. 

In a sense, it's not more rational than having faith in Jesus.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Cheshire Cat

[Rara]

8 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I intentionally avoid speaking of the "spiritual element".  But one may infer that I was speaking to it if one wishes to do so.

 

So many different spiritual belief systems out there and I do try hard to not offend any one's beliefs.

 

 

 

And with all the best intentions, but indirectly, that spiritual element is greater in what you say than some other atheistic or physician views. Which I'm down with

 

We can take the chemical/biological part on board in identifying that when we die, our states change and therefore eventually become parts of other things. How much of that has a spiritual definition is debateable. 

 

Some might say this therefore changes the state of things on a constant basis. And therefore is this not "Tao"? Is that a spiritual transmutation or a chemical transformation? Or both?

 

I'm not looking for an answer, I just feel that is all worth considering.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Rara

[Marblehead]

I'm glad you aren't looking for answers as I have none.  All I have are my opinions and understandings.

 

Yes, I have been accused of being more of a "spiritual" person than I admit to but then the viewer determines that, don't they?

 

[ChiForce]

10 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

In my understanding in the field of rebirth, there's no solid experiential knowledge that one could gain from spiritual practice. 

There are meditation techniques which claim to give knowledge of past lives, but they're closer to random allucinations and mind delusions than factual experience.

 

Rebirth is a plain belief that you choose to hold in your heart as a pre-requisite to practice Buddhism. 

In a sense, it's not more rational than having faith in Jesus.

Not exactly...I don't want to be off topics.  Rebirth in the Buddhist cosmology is beyond more than just the merit system.  Is often required for the accomplished Bodhi or individuals on the way to become a Buddha to finish his or her path.  To reborn one last time.  We are too fixated on this life time and trying to accomplish whatever you think you need to obtain spiritual enlightenment.  The truth is that you can't.  In fact, that's not even the Tao because you are fixated only the present.  Not what went before you and after you.

 

Obviously, the mind is a like an onion.  You can't get to your past life or lives without peeling away your current life and your current day karma and suffering.  How many people have managed to do that???     

[CedarTree]

I am glad I started this discussion,

 

I am starting to pick up some tidbits that have expanded the views I had or at least brought new views to mind from what I had before as a reference from Ajahn Chah and Shoryu Bradley's Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery.

 

Thanks guys

 

 

[Rara]

6 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I'm glad you aren't looking for answers as I have none.  All I have are my opinions and understandings.

 

Yes, I have been accused of being more of a "spiritual" person than I admit to but then the viewer determines that, don't they?

 

Same here. I'm simply continuing to work on at least understanding Taoist teachings as best as I can (whether they be questionable to me or not)

 

Like "chi", we relate it to energy etc. I can understand all that on a scientific level. And how you describe it is just that, but with a lovely opening to say that it therefore applies to everything and how we will eventually become a part of something else, which to me, is spiritual. 

 

Would my dead body change the behaviour of someone or thing that chooses to eat it? Most probably. Just like I feel quite different after a beef burger to say, a salad. While the result on the outside looks to be merely scientific, spiritual beliefs translate this into a holistic mind, body AND spirit explanation. We all know that religions advise or even order us what foods etc we should avoid. Or HOW it is slaughtered or cooked also makes huge significant impact.

 

The phenomenons on the feeling of energy, emotions and consciousness in general is just simply unjustified when put in to words. The scientific formulas can map out and explain how this all works, but it will never be the same as the experience itself

[Cheshire Cat]

14 hours ago, ChiForce said:

Not exactly...I don't want to be off topics.  Rebirth in the Buddhist cosmology is beyond more than just the merit system.  Is often required for the accomplished Bodhi or individuals on the way to become a Buddha to finish his or her path.  To reborn one last time.  We are too fixated on this life time and trying to accomplish whatever you think you need to obtain spiritual enlightenment.  The truth is that you can't.  In fact, that's not even the Tao because you are fixated only the present.  Not what went before you and after you.

 

Obviously, the mind is a like an onion.  You can't get to your past life or lives without peeling away your current life and your current day karma and suffering.  How many people have managed to do that???     

 

I'm just saying that rebirth it's a mere belief, an act of faith.

 

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

I'm just saying that rebirth it's a mere belief, an act of faith.

 

I love the way you phrased that.  Totally open for interpretation into whatever form one wishes.

 

[ChiForce]

7 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

I'm just saying that rebirth it's a mere belief, an act of faith.

 

Nah.....too vague and too general.  You can use the belief and faith excuse to describe anything.

[ChiForce]

4 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I love the way you phrased that.  Totally open for interpretation into whatever form one wishes.

 

Nah...is somewhat weak.  Is not subject specific and nor it can explain why in Chan practice, not much was talked about rebirth.  In fact, enlightenment can be achieved in a single life time and in a single moment.  In the Buddhist practice, there is this concept called Once returner. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakadagami