Ignorance is not bliss

[dwai]

In context of  self-inquiry and self-realization, when one starts down this path, one is ignorant of their self-nature  (this ignorance is called avidya). The ignorance is because one identifies as their "Self", the body and mind, and the various things that the body-mind allegedly possesses and does (profession, possessions, passions, talents, skills, so on and so forth).  So one might say, they are blissfully unaware of the "reality" and live mired in drama of samsara.

 

As one starts the journey of self-inquiry, eventually they will encounter the fact that all that they had previously thought of as being their "self" is not actually that at all. Not everyone gets there quickly. Some suffer and struggle as a result of the inherent lack of knowledge of the fact that, IT, that which observes the body, mind and the countless objects of the universe ebb and flow, is the Self. But this Self has no properties that can be really observed, as it is the very subject that is the source of all experience, and all objects.

 

In the period between embarking on this path and realizing what one truly is, is a painful period (at least was for me). It is rife with suffering of a special kind (some call it the "dark night of the soul"). It really is a "trial by fire", a "rite of passage" and paying debts with "blood"...but I wouldn't have it any other way, in retrospect.

 

However, what drives me to write about this, is the news of that poor kid who committed suicide after going to a vipasana retreat for a week. That was really tragic. But we know that karma has a role to play here.

 

As I reflect upon my "suffering" during the period when I was clearly in witness state and yet did not know my real identity (or a lack thereof, in the common sense), it was a struggle. I was unable to stand crowded places, unable to look people in the eye as the contents of my mind would rise forth as I was having a conversation with them and "negative" thoughts involving them would fleet through my brain. I truly thought I was a bad person, as a result of the contents of my mind (and habits that were driven by the stuff I was living on - social, nutritional, etc). 

 

As a result of this (for almost 6 years), I struggled every day. I would still stubbornly do my taiji forms, my standing meditations, my yoga asanas, pranayama, etc. As much as I knew that if I stopped these things, I would probably over time go back to being blissfully more ignorant, or oblivious; still, I could not stop. 

 

Eventually, I entered a phase, where I grew numb and oblivious to the world around me. It didn't matter whether I had a job or not. Whether I was with my family or not. Even whether I did my practice or not. During this period, I would intermittently stop practice and then start again, when I felt like it. Maybe, I was comfortably numb. In retrospect, becoming numb actually helped me handle the energies and process the goings on.

 

But then my first teacher moved (it was his guidance and twice a week of contact (for several years) that kept me sane during this period and kept me going), and introduced me to Master Jose. Even before meeting Master, I had met him in dreams and he worked on me (for stuff I had asked him to help me with).

 

When I finally met him in person, and he transferred his consciousness to me with a touch of his index finger to my 3rd eye, he literally kicked my butt across the line and I spent about 15 days subsequent to that in a state of ecstasy/bliss. After that, for almost another year and a half, I stayed in a split state of being completely Self-aware and in the local-mind/ego state (Master calls it the Spiritual Mind and the local mind). During this period, for the most part, the Ego was unable to flex its muscles - it stayed a humble servant to the spiritual mind. 

 

And around 6 months after meeting master, my friend who had seemed like a died-in-wool materialist started practicing self-inquiry too, in the classical advaita vedanta mode. As he and I started discussing this, I started to try and articulate what was happening to me, to explain in words my "experiences". This started a process of categorization and rationalization, which resulted in my "dropping out of the split-state" eventually. There was a decay going on, as the old habits and grooves started to re-appear. 

 

I was rather depressed as I realized that, thinking "huh! I knew that it was too good to be true...". So I asked Master, to which he said "two things are happening. Your body is getting used to the energy and emptiness and old habits are re-appearing. But this is the opportunity for you to work through them and get back to the blissful state".

 

And true to his word, the return to bliss is working, steadily and surely. The old "cold and indifferent" state (Stone Buddha?) has been replaced by awareness of the awareness  of being, which is so completely ordinary, that I would have never even imagined that it is that way.

 

We read so many glorified and idealized descriptions of this becoming "Self-aware" that it is almost anti-climactic when the realization occurs. And along with that realization the other thing that happens is the realization that there is no moment that one is not that (Self).

 

Old habits and samskaras that used to bother me quite intensely, have become amusing. The "blissful" state is really a non-state. It is always there. It is just that before the mind-body identification had so total a hold on me, that it was constantly masked (except for those fleeting moments when the mind would stop). I won't even say that the mind stops completely. Just that, by being aware of the etherealness of the mind and not identifying with the body, the background looms large and it's ever-present nature is apparent.

 

This too is a stage, I know now. The dive is going to keep getting deeper...

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I used to use that saying "Ignorance is bliss." but stopped a while back.  It's just not a valid statement.

 

[3bob]

So do we wonder why the Self veils the Self, for the Self does not gain or lose in relation to or from such veiling?

[dwai]

21 minutes ago, 3bob said:

So do we wonder why the Self veils the Self, for the Self does not gain or lose in relation to or from such veiling?

It is pointless to try to understand it. Just know it is and continue. 

[thelerner]

9 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, I used to use that saying "Ignorance is bliss." but stopped a while back.  It's just not a valid statement.

 

hmnn, how about 'Not knowing and being okay with that' is bliss-like..

[3bob]

is it also pointless to understand dharma, karma, etc...?

 

[dwai]

19 minutes ago, 3bob said:

is it also pointless to understand dharma, karma, etc...?

 

They are needed to live a life such that one may dispel avidya

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, 3bob said:

is it also pointless to understand dharma, karma, etc...?

 

You can study them, but can we ever really understand them.. ?

With concepts like Karma, imo, there's a whole lotta 'I don't knows', especially when applied to specific life happenings. 

[allinone]

if you pass the heart then your intelligence will soar a bit. Then we should see errors more in oneself and others.

 

i think you are not doing that layer practice, bc it involves pain a lot. Basically you will tame your hand, because it doesn't want to let go because the desire is too strong and that will make you have a tunnel vision.

[Aaron]

Lao Tzu would disagree I think. Knowledge does not bring happiness, in most cases. The less you know, the happier you will be. This is why a child can be in the middle of war zone and be thrilled with finding a red ball, they don't know of death or hardship yet, only the red ball and how much fun they can have with it. Three days later, in the same war zone, that child can find that ball, but because of the experiences they've had, they find no joy, it is only a ball, nothing more. Ignorance breeds possibilities that knowledge does not.

[s1va]

7 hours ago, Aaron said:

Lao Tzu would disagree I think. Knowledge does not bring happiness, in most cases. The less you know, the happier you will be. This is why a child can be in the middle of war zone and be thrilled with finding a red ball, they don't know of death or hardship yet, only the red ball and how much fun they can have with it. Three days later, in the same war zone, that child can find that ball, but because of the experiences they've had, they find no joy, it is only a ball, nothing more. Ignorance breeds possibilities that knowledge does not.

 

Knowledge does not bring happiness, but knowledge is inevitable.  The child cannot remain a child.  To grow up in the world, the child has to go through some kind of learning process.

 

Perhaps later the knowledge that does not serve can be unlearned or discarded.

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, kāvēri said:

 

Knowledge does not bring happiness, but knowledge is inevitable.  The child cannot remain a child.  To grow up in the world, the child has to go through some kind of learning process.

 

Perhaps later the knowledge that does not serve can be unlearned or discarded.

 

Good point...

 

Clarity brings knowing. But knowing is not the same as intellectual knowledge. Mental obstructions (of issues and fears) block direct knowing.

[dwai]

8 hours ago, Aaron said:

Lao Tzu would disagree I think. Knowledge does not bring happiness, in most cases. The less you know, the happier you will be. This is why a child can be in the middle of war zone and be thrilled with finding a red ball, they don't know of death or hardship yet, only the red ball and how much fun they can have with it. Three days later, in the same war zone, that child can find that ball, but because of the experiences they've had, they find no joy, it is only a ball, nothing more. Ignorance breeds possibilities that knowledge does not.

Here ignorance is only lack of knowledge of the True Self. It is the mistaken identification with the mind and body. Knowledge is the dispelling of the ignorance. It is one and the same as Lao Tzu's teachings of the Dao.

 

This "knowing" is attained by giving up knowledge of objects and phenomenal things. It is actually not-doing. When one knows the Self, one doesn't do anymore because there is no doer. Only action happens as it is meant to happen...

 

[Jetsun]

18 hours ago, 3bob said:

So do we wonder why the Self veils the Self, for the Self does not gain or lose in relation to or from such veiling?

 

Maybe to have the experience of not knowing what it is. As it already knows everything else 

[Jeff]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

Here ignorance is only lack of knowledge of the True Self. It is the mistaken identification with the mind and body. Knowledge is the dispelling of the ignorance. It is one and the same as Lao Tzu's teachings of the Dao.

 

This "knowing" is attained by giving up knowledge of objects and phenomenal things. It is actually not-doing. When one knows the Self, one doesn't do anymore because there is no doer. Only action happens as it is meant to happen...

 

 

I think the Lao Tzu teaches something slightly different than that in the Tao Te Ching. One still chooses or does stuff, but one is unattached and aware, so free to respond naturally...

 

CHAPTER 49  (SFH version)

The Sage is at one with the Dao, his mind is open and uncluttered.  He is aware of all things.  

By having an open mind, he can act naturally. And so he treats people and all things equally. Like the Dao, he shows no preference.  

The Sage appears quiet, humble and elusive. If men seek it in their hearts, they can find contentment by listening and watching the Sage.  

[blue eyed snake]

56 minutes ago, dwai said:

Here ignorance is only lack of knowledge of the True Self. It is the mistaken identification with the mind and body. Knowledge is the dispelling of the ignorance. It is one and the same as Lao Tzu's teachings of the Dao.

 

This "knowing" is attained by giving up knowledge of objects and phenomenal things. It is actually not-doing. When one knows the Self, one doesn't do anymore because there is no doer. Only action happens as it is meant to happen...

 

 

to me, ignorance is bliss, at the moment, means

 

when you're unaware of the true self, you're also unaware of the needlesness of suffering. All the anger and jealousy, agression, war, hatred to others, to people who are deemed to be different, the fear and anxiety.....

all the pain (wo)men inflict on each other.

 

there's no need for that.

 

that knowledge hurts me at the moment ( which me?....)

 

being ignorant of that knowledge is bliss. But once you have that knowledge, there's no going back.

 

BES

[dwai]

22 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

to me, ignorance is bliss, at the moment, means

 

when you're unaware of the true self, you're also unaware of the needlesness of suffering. All the anger and jealousy, agression, war, hatred to others, to people who are deemed to be different, the fear and anxiety.....

all the pain (wo)men inflict on each other.

 

there's no need for that.

 

that knowledge hurts me at the moment ( which me?....)

 

being ignorant of that knowledge is bliss. But once you have that knowledge, there's no going back.

 

BES

So you are dreaming that you are suffering and not knowing that you are dreaming makes the suffering "real". If you were to realize that it is only a dream, would you continue to suffer? 

 

In my experience, realizing the dream-like nature of our waking world really neutralizes the suffering. Sure body will continue to feel pain as long as it is there, but it is not suffering (as in anguish and torment). 

 

We create our own suffering through our misidentification. 

 

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

I think the Lao Tzu teaches something slightly different than that in the Tao Te Ching. One still chooses or does stuff, but one is unattached and aware, so free to respond naturally...

 

CHAPTER 49  (SFH version)

The Sage is at one with the Dao, his mind is open and uncluttered.  He is aware of all things.  

By having an open mind, he can act naturally. And so he treats people and all things equally. Like the Dao, he shows no preference.  

The Sage appears quiet, humble and elusive. If men seek it in their hearts, they can find contentment by listening and watching the Sage.  

In my humble understanding, what he is saying is that the sage becomes "empty". Therefore he/she is free to come and go as needed. But that is not their own "will". There is no doer-ship anymore. 

 

To the rest of the world (except other sages) he seems like the doer, because they identify his body and mind as his Self. But the sages know that neither the body nor mind are ultimately separate from the Dao; ie does not have an independent existence, and therefore it is the Dao that is doing through the sage.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

In my humble understanding, what he is saying is that the sage becomes "empty". Therefore he/she is free to come and go as needed. But that is not their own "will". There is no doer-ship anymore. 

 

To the rest of the world (except other sages) he seems like the doer, because they identify his body and mind as his Self. But the sages know that neither the body nor mind are ultimately separate from the Dao; ie does not have an independent existence, and therefore it is the Dao that is doing through the sage.

 

We have discussed this point many times, but I think he is very clear about this point. In chapter 5, he clearly talks about a Sage "using" and able to manipulate the formless...

 

Heaven and Earth are ruthless, They see the Ten Thousand Things as part of one whole. The wise are therefore ruthless, for they see people as  part of the same structure.  

The space between Heaven and Earth is formless, but it has a form. For the Ten Thousand Things all depend upon it. Like this space, the Sage can use its formless qualities; for it yields to whatever, or whoever uses it.  

Hold fast to this and remain at one.  

 

Also, in chapter 12, he specifically talks about a Sage making individual choices...

 

CHAPTER 12  

The five colours blind the eye. The five tones deafen the ear. The five flavours dull the taste. For having in excess, dulls the senses. When the senses are dulled, men look for more stimulation.  

Racing and hunting fever the mind.  

Precious things cause greed to arise in Men's hearts. Therefore the Sage is guided by what he feels, and not by what he sees.  He lets go of that and chooses this.  

 

There are also many other such references in the Tao Te Ching. In my view, Taoism does not really contain the cessation in Self concept of many Hindu traditions.

 

 

[dwai]

16 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

We have discussed this point many times, but I think he is very clear about this point. In chapter 5, he clearly talks about a Sage "using" and able to manipulate the formless...

 

Heaven and Earth are ruthless, They see the Ten Thousand Things as part of one whole. The wise are therefore ruthless, for they see people as  part of the same structure.  

The space between Heaven and Earth is formless, but it has a form. For the Ten Thousand Things all depend upon it. Like this space, the Sage can use its formless qualities; for it yields to whatever, or whoever uses it.  

Hold fast to this and remain at one.  

 

Also, in chapter 12, he specifically talks about a Sage making individual choices...

 

CHAPTER 12  

The five colours blind the eye. The five tones deafen the ear. The five flavours dull the taste. For having in excess, dulls the senses. When the senses are dulled, men look for more stimulation.  

Racing and hunting fever the mind.  

Precious things cause greed to arise in Men's hearts. Therefore the Sage is guided by what he feels, and not by what he sees.  He lets go of that and chooses this.  

 

There are also many other such references in the Tao Te Ching. In my view, Taoism does not really contain the cessation in Self concept of many Hindu traditions.

 

 

This is but one translation/interpretation 

 

I like Master Liao's translation, I'd recommend you read Nine Nights with the Daoist Master to see his perspective.

 

Hindu traditions don't actually contain cessation of the Self at all. Rather it focuses on cessation of identification with the false self (non-self). The non-self is the personality - phenomenon and objective.  The Self is noumenon. 

 

What is being said in the DDJ about the sage choosing this or that is that the Sage does not rely on his ego/ego-mind to grasp at objects. Rather he is non-different from the Dao, and all his actions are the Dao's actions. He does not choose to be a "super-man", rather, he is not a person at all anymore, though appearances will deceive those who haven't let go of the false thinking -- of grasping at objects, clinging to this or that thing, irrespective of whether it is the idea of freedom to act how he pleases or material objects. He is Dao.

[dwai]

This is a good description of a Sage

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

This is but one translation/interpretation 

 

I like Master Liao's translation, I'd recommend you read Nine Nights with the Daoist Master to see his perspective.

 

Hindu traditions don't actually contain cessation of the Self at all. Rather it focuses on cessation of identification with the false self (non-self). The non-self is the personality - phenomenon and objective.  The Self is noumenon. 

 

What is being said in the DDJ about the sage choosing this or that is that the Sage does not rely on his ego/ego-mind to grasp at objects. Rather he is non-different from the Dao, and all his actions are the Dao's actions. He does not choose to be a "super-man", rather, he is not a person at all anymore, though appearances will deceive those who haven't let go of the false thinking -- of grasping at objects, clinging to this or that thing, irrespective of whether it is the idea of freedom to act how he pleases or material objects. He is Dao.

 

I agree a sage is one with the Dao, and in no way am I taking about being a "super-man". But, the sage still chooses, his choice is just free in the moment as he is no longer whipsawed by autopilot responses from subconscious issues and fears that are found in the local body-mind.

 

A Sage knows himself and others.  A Sage cares for all beings.

 

[thelerner]

I wonder if

Worrying about what we can't influence is hell? 

[Aaron]

Chapter 19 

 

DROP wisdom, abandon cleverness,
And the people will be benefited a hundredfold.

Drop humanity, abandon justice,
And the people will return to their natural affections.

Drop shrewdness, abandon sharpness,
And robbers and thieves will cease to be.

These three are the criss-cross of Tao,
And are not sufficient in themselves.
Therefore, they should be subordinated
To a Higher principle:
See the Simple and embrace the Primal,
Diminish the self and curb the desires!

 

Tao Te Ching- Tr. John C. H. Wu 

[allinone]

you don't help ghosts, they are all thirsty. Only thinking about your self.