The ethics of revenge

[thursday]

Things happen that don't seem right to us, push our buttons, from a little bit, daily annoyances, to more moderate, to quite painful.. The moment I start noticing any of this, I reflect what goes on in myself and wether I have the right to complain or defend myself.

 

Sometimes it's so that I already reacted heavily before coming to the point of noticing.. This is not good, but also not necessarily of "dark intent". Just a lack of awareness.

 

If there is awareness and I still go on, I will not forgive myself easily because I consciously made a mistake, wether that be a small or large mistake.

 

It makes no real difference wether I was wrong or right, it is being observant of the content of my mind and body that should be priority. Returning back to a level of neutrality that is helpful for us is of far greater worth than always being right.

 

These things that happen to us that push our buttons, maybe they happen for this simple reason: to become stronger facing them internally. Bringing light to the dark, not to strive for being perfect, but to suffer less.. It can go really quick, but if I'm aware of revengeful needs, I better try my best to return to neutrality.. Which in the end seem to be the key with most spiritual practise anyway, afaik, well that would make sense.. Just my 50 cents..

 

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by thursday

[Starjumper]

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, thursday said:

Things happen that don't seem right to us, push our buttons, from a little bit, daily annoyances, to more moderate, to quite painful.. The moment I start noticing any of this, I reflect what goes on in myself and wether I have the right to complain or defend myself.

 

Sometimes it's so that I already reacted heavily before coming to the point of noticing.. This is not good, but also not necessarily of "dark intent". Just a lack of awareness.

 

If there is awareness and I still go on, I will not forgive myself easily because I consciously made a mistake, wether that be a small or large mistake.

 

It makes no real difference wether I was wrong or right, it is being observant of the content of my mind and body that should be priority. Returning back to a level of neutrality that is helpful for us is of far greater worth than always being right.

 

These things that happen to us that push our buttons, maybe they happen for this simple reason: to become stronger facing them internally. Bringing light to the dark, not to strive for being perfect, but to suffer less.. It can go really quick, but if I'm aware of revengeful needs, I better try my best to return to neutrality.. Which in the end seem to be the key with most spiritual practise anyway, afaik, well that would make sense.. Just my 50 cents.

 

That is all very good and I agree.  I think this point you made is important:

 

Quote

Sometimes it's so that I already reacted heavily before coming to the point of noticing.. This is not good, but also not necessarily of "dark intent". Just a lack of awareness.

 

This is an important point to make.  Forgiving yourself and feeling that it does not come from dark intent.  The question of whether it is good or not, and whether it includes awareness or not are what we want to be discussing here.

 

It seems to me that a lot of it stems from social norms, conditioning, and levels of maturity.  For example the life of Amazonian head hunters used to revolve around revenge and revenge battles, and they are not immature in the least, I would say that they are in fact more mature than a lot of 'civilized' people.

 

Then there is the question of maturity.  In the modern day and age there are so many infantile brats that allow their feelings of revenge to manifest non stop their mommy has to tell them to cool it or there will be never ending bedlam and possible physically if not emotionally damaged children.

 

So I think an important part is level of maturity.

 

Now let's examine how more mature people work with revenge and whether it makes them feel guilty or not.

 

There's a story about a tai chi master who was walking through the square of his village and a young punk came up and started insulting him, and he wouldn't stop insulting him.  So the tai chi man, after standing quietly for a little while, killed him with the beginning part of the opening move of the Yang style tai chi (raising hands and hitting solar plexus in an upward manner with the backs of the wrists)  That was not the action of an immature person, and one would wonder whether he felt guilt about that later or not; but we can be fairly certain that labeling it 'from the dark side' does not fit.

 

Another example is from a couple of my teachers, who have passed on at this point.  They sometimes went trolling for muggers, probably mainly for practice.  If a mugger confronted them they would either kill them or damage them, like blind them, break their elbows or knees (neither of which can be corrected properly) or smash their hands, and other diabolical stuff which would more or less guarantee a life as a disabled person in a wheelchair or needing a blind person's cane; and making them wish they were dead.  The sure thing is that their career as criminals was over.  These gentlemen were not immature in the least, but fine examples of very mature and restrained behavior.  One was a university professor and the other was a high level CIA operative.  However, as the TTC sez, the did hurt their 'hand'.

 

So, if a person messes with someone then that someone could mess them back, the threat of or possibility of which can deter the first person from being so messy.

 

edit: these men who went trolling for muggers could have controlled the situation without causing damage to the mugger, which is why it fits with the concept of revenge.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

8 hours ago, Aaron said:

Taoism is a philosophy that, like many religions is oftentimes used to justify people's actions. Nowhere in the Tao Te Ching does it encourage revenge, in fact it does the opposite. It says, essentially, that one should strive to live a life that is in harmony with others and that, if you're succeeding at this, then there should never be the need for revenge, murder, or defending one's self. 

 

That is true.  There is nowhere that the TTC recommends revenge and I agree about arriving at a state where there should never be the need for revenge, murder, or defending one's self.   Like: if there is ever any trouble or violence then I'm not there.  But sometimes the sage returns to the marketplace to raise a little hell, yes?

 

The TTC does not recommend revenge, but it does recommend that we follow the way of nature, and the way of nature includes human nature, and human nature includes feelings of and sometimes following through with revenge.  It is something that comes naturally in the most violent primate species on the planet.

[Starjumper]

15 hours ago, Brian said:

Define "revenge" in your own words.

 

OK Brian, back acha.  How do you define revenge in your words?

[Starjumper]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

for some reason .... I think I better not watch that       

 

   Dont' worry, it has nothing to do with the proctologist, it's just an innocent comedy routine.

[allinone]

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Edited July 12, 2017 by allinone

[thursday]

I don't know how things were in days past, but what about "Turning the other cheek"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek

 

Choosing to walk away seems like the more mature thing to do. I wouldn't want to seek trouble like a life or death situation, but if one does end up in such a situation, then it's likely not so much about revenge but trying to survive though, right? This makes it a different story.

 

If I were seeking trouble.. Well, isn't it likely that I will find trouble then too? Why would I want that? "Don't seek trouble, because it will likely find you without further work needed", comes to mind.. Could it be that simple?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Starjumper]

What my guardian does is kind of like none of my business, he is his own man and does what he wants, although if I get really pissed off it seems to have some influence.   I don't get weekly reports and don't care to get any.  One thing is certain, his main job is to get involved with people on the dark side who have power in the spirit realm and I don't think you have any of that.  You could always invite or challenge the dragon but I don't think he would bother, but go ahead, give it a try and let me know if you see anything    I'm becoming curious, and it would be good experiment.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

41 minutes ago, thursday said:

I don't know how things were in days past, but what about "Turning the other cheek"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek

 

Choosing to walk away seems like the more mature thing to do. I wouldn't want to seek trouble like a life or death situation, but if one does end up in such a situation, then it's likely not so much about revenge but trying to survive though, right? This makes it a different story.

 

If I were seeking trouble.. Well, isn't it likely that I will find trouble then too? Why would I want that? "Don't seek trouble, because it will likely find you without further work needed", comes to mind.. Could it be that simple?

 

Yes, turning the other cheek is the ideal response.  

 

I heard that the founder of Aikido had advanced to the point that if someone was going to attack him that he could make that person feel oneness with himself, and so the attacker would not attack himself. I'm not there yet.  

 

Concerning 'don't seek trouble' there are deeper aspects of that, and Chuang Tzu commented on just that in 'The Tower of the Spirit" and I have been getting into some 'trouble' due to this.

 

 

The Tower of the Spirit

 

The Spirit has an impregnable tower
Which no danger can disturb
As long as the tower is guarded
By the invisible Protector
Who acts unconsciously, and whose actions 
Go astray when they become deliberate,
Reflexive, and intentional.

The unconscious
And entire sincerity of Tao
Are disturbed by any effort
At self-conscious demonstration.
All such demonstrations 
Are lies.

When one displays himself
In this ambiguous way
The world storms in
and imprisons him.

He is no longer protected
by the sincerity of Tao.

Each new act
Is a new failure.

If his acts are done in public,
In broad daylight,
He will be punished by men.
If they are done in private
And in secret,
He will be punished
By spirits.

Let each one understand
The meaning of sincerity
and guard against display.

He will be at peace
with men and spirits
and will act rightly, unseen,
in his own solitude,
in the tower of his spirit.”

 

Thomas Merton, The Way of Chuang Tzu.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Starjumper

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

OK Brian, back acha.  How do you define revenge in your words?

A reasonable question, although my understanding of the concept doesn't reflect upon yours and yours is the relevant one in your personal determination here, if you follow me.

 

In a nutshell, I don't get to key some jerk's car for taking my parking place and he doesn't get to punch my wife in the face for cutting him off in the checkout line at the grocery store.

 

As I see it, revenge is an act intended to "even of the score," to claim vindication or retaliation for a perceived wrong by balancing it with a counter-"wrong" in a "two wrongs make a right" sort of way.

 

My personal belief is that I don't have that right; it is not my place to mete out retribution in some violent or damaging fashion which I may deem appropriate "punishment" in a post facto delivery for some ill previously committed.  I may, however, act to intercede to prevent damage or injury from happening in the first place, or I may choose to act in a non-disciplinary manner to assist in allowing the processes of justice to play out, particularly if I was a witness to such damage or injury.

 

That, I think, begs the question of "what do I mean by 'justice?'"

 

Justice is the "blind" application of rule of law in accordance with communally agreed-upon principles, regulations and mores, administered by disinterested agents selected by the community for such a role.  Absent "rule of law," we would fall back on vigilantism in which the individual becomes judge, jury and executioner.  As a voluntary member of a civil society, however, I delegate that role to others with the expectation that justice will be served.

 

This make sense?

[liminal_luke]

59 minutes ago, Brian said:

 

Justice is the "blind" application of rule of law in accordance with communally agreed-upon principles, regulations and mores, administered by disinterested agents selected by the community for such a role.  Absent "rule of law," we would fall back on vigilantism in which the individual becomes judge, jury and executioner.  As a voluntary member of a civil society, however, I delegate that role to others with the expectation that justice will be served.

 

 

The beauty and elegance of the law, at least theoretically, lies in it`s blindness.  When justice is meted out according to established principles, and in the same way for everyone, there`s a quality of dispassion.  It`s about following procedure, not getting revenge.  Because it`s dispassionate, it`s energetially neutral.  The prison gaurd and the prisoner can treat each other with respect because they are both just "doing their jobs" in a system that is larger than they are.

 

Revenge is typically motivated by passion: someone did something to me and I am angry.  People commonly think that the act of revenge will discharge that passion, returning them to a place of emotional neutrality, it does not.  Revenge is unethical first and foremost because it`s contrary to self-interest.  Imagine if someone keys your car and to get back at them you key your own car some more.  That`s revenge.    

Edited July 12, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Brian]

20 minutes ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

 

I don't think I've ever seen anything  like that....

I would encourage you to spend some time in that environment.  Here's a link at the federal level but opportunities exist at state and local levels, too.  Your Sheriff probably welcomes volunteers in the county jail.

https://www.bop.gov/jobs/volunteer.jsp

 

My father's side of the family was heavily represented in law enforcement professions.  I've got a brother who started as a cop and put himself through law school and is now an assistant district attorney.  I've got a sister who is a deputy sheriff -- she worked as a jailer and then became a trainer for prison guards on self-defense and use of force.  My wife, on the other hand, worked many years as a mental health social worker and spent lots of time working in the county jail.  Personally, I spent 48 hours in a county jail during part of my misspent youth and my relationship with the guards then was entirely respectful in both directions.

 

My father had a story about one time when he was in an army hospital and the guy in the bed next to him gave the nurses a really hard time. My dad noticed that the nurses would tap the tip of that patient's hypodermic needles on the bedframe before giving him injections so that it would hurt.

 

Some might say our interactions with the world around us are largely products of our own choices.

 

[allinone]

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Edited July 12, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

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Edited July 12, 2017 by allinone

[Kar3n]

18 minutes ago, allinone said:

in short it is you who scare others with your guardians and teachers that they really exist somewhere else than your own inner world.

So again you got owned by a kid behind a computer.

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i don't need to deal you like i have done it previously. I can access you without getting sick.

We do not threaten folks on TDB, neither physically or spiritually, if we would like to keep our membership active. I suggest caution if one chooses to continue along these lines, it is very high on the list of an immediate and permanent ban.

[allinone]

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Edited July 12, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

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Edited July 12, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

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Edited July 12, 2017 by allinone

[Kar3n]

10 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

Karen, its the moment right now when i in past was doing things what are banworthy!

True. Just be careful. Reported threats are taken seriously and with swift action. I would hate for "innocent play" to be not seen as such and someone take serious offense.

 

 

[allinone]

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Edited July 12, 2017 by allinone

[Starjumper]

Hey Alinone, I'm sorry that you haven't been feeling well, and I'm sorry if I had any part in it.  If I can help in some way just send me a personal message.  

 

Also, if you would help by deleting your comments here which are off topic I will do the same.

 

Peace brother.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

 

Revenge is a bad place to be causing an endless cycle, to break free of the cycle is the job.

 

Trust the untrustworthy and gain their trust as a Lao Tzu position.

 

Many warnings about revenge, not a good idea. The karma of being wronged or someone going against the Tao is returned ten thousand times. We can actually hit the return button if negative things try to creep in. Return to sender and it is multiplied.

 

Pop culture has characters like billy jack or actual people who take the law into their own hands when the Justice system fails to perform their job.The public embraces them because of the systems fail, not the actual issue..

 

Personal justice is different to me, If the action does not benefit all of humanity it can be a case of partial understanding, a angle or consciousness we did not perceive that led to feeling attacked. When actual attacked we borrow the force and return it. send it where it planned to go, we just moved so we are not there. same as non physical.

 

The internet is the worst, all people have their own universe, their own world creation, My reality is much different than another, What exist for one may not even be possible for another negative or positive.

 

Words do not transfer the actual thoughts like talking to people. the energy exchange is absent so we try to invent the feeling being written to understand the words.

 

All internet transactions have very little value better to have real conversations in front of those whom we speak to, the energetic value is there,  information is more meaningful..

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Wu Ming Jen

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

That's funny, I didn't feel like I was attacked.

 

I'm not obsessed with anything, just sharing some experiences of seeing the mystery.  You are the one obsessed and you are making your own self sick.

 

Alinone, your 'attacks' are weak, they don't feel like attacks at all, they don't bother me.  Try harder.  What my guardian does is kind of like none of my business, he is his own man and does what he wants, although if I get really pissed off it seems to have some influence.   I don't get weekly reports and don't care to get any.  One thing is certain, his main job is to get involved with people on the dark side who have power in the spirit realm and I don't think you have any of that.  You could always invite or challenge the dragon but I don't think he would bother, but go ahead, give it a try and let me know if you see anything    I'm becoming curious, and it would be good experiment.

 

be careful there folks 

 

 people can die from these games    ( and it usually is  NOT  the one   with the  '   pet  dragon '     ) .  

[Nungali]

....  I have seen it   more  than   once  !