The ethics of revenge

[ChiForce]

Hehehhe...well, if you are skillful in your Chi cultivation, you would have foreseen how the event would unfold through insights, dreams, and visions.  I have plenty of that.  You would quickly examine if this emotional sense of injustice was or would be caused by your own desire or from the dishonesty from another person. Then, you would quickly cease all relationship with this person or to stop engaging in the events....in order to prevent the eventuality....for you feeling cheated.

 

If you didn't see it coming..it is either the event is really not a big deal (common daily annoyance from living in a big city and etc) or you are blinded by your own desire.  Hopefully, your own desire didn't get in the way of your choice and blinding you from seeing the actual reality. 

 

In Taoism, we value wu-wai-wu.  So, you should have foreseen your emotion in the first place..... 

 

 

[Marblehead]

But then, if you take revenge you no longer have to hold to hate.

 

[Aetherous]

7 hours ago, ChiForce said:

In Taoism, we value wu-wai-wu

Wei wu wei?

[Brian]

7 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

Wei wu wei?

Yes.  It is a principle worth researching, often conflated with "wu wei."  Here's a starting point:

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/loy3.htm

 

In Stillness-Movement, we sometimes use the phrase "dancing in Wu Wei" to convey this concept.

[ChiForce]

26 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

Wei wu wei?

Hahahah...I am trying to translate it from Cantonese....hehehehe....is to observe quietly the course of actions of a particular event.  You intervene just at the right moment to affect a different outcome.  The key element is that your particular insights are so sharp and accurate that you can see how things are being unfolded and know when, where, and what to intervene.  If you do too much, you are no longer seeing the events the way they are. 

 

People often doing too much and putting their ego in a situation that does not involve them...yet.  Thereby, making the situation worse.  They can only react but not be able to prevent.

[Marblehead]

Interesting,

 

the difference between

 

wei wu wei

 

and 

 

wu wei.

 

 

[Brian]

18 hours ago, ChiForce said:

Hehehhe...well, if you are skillful in your Chi cultivation, you would have foreseen how the event would unfold through insights, dreams, and visions.  I have plenty of that.  You would quickly examine if this emotional sense of injustice was or would be caused by your own desire or from the dishonesty from another person. Then, you would quickly cease all relationship with this person or to stop engaging in the events....in order to prevent the eventuality....for you feeling cheated.

 

If you didn't see it coming..it is either the event is really not a big deal (common daily annoyance from living in a big city and etc) or you are blinded by your own desire.  Hopefully, your own desire didn't get in the way of your choice and blinding you from seeing the actual reality. 

 

In Taoism, we value wu-wai-wu.  So, you should have foreseen your emotion in the first place..... 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Aetherous said:

Wei wu wei?

 

11 hours ago, Brian said:

Yes.  It is a principle worth researching, often conflated with "wu wei."  Here's a starting point:

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/loy3.htm

 

In Stillness-Movement, we sometimes use the phrase "dancing in Wu Wei" to convey this concept.

LOL

 

My brain "fixed" ChiForce's post when I read it so I didn't realize Aetherous was clarifying a mangled phrase!

 

[ChiForce]

3 hours ago, Brian said:

 

 

LOL

 

My brain "fixed" ChiForce's post when I read it so I didn't realize Aetherous was clarifying a mangled phrase!

 

In Cantonese...is pronounced more like Mo Wai.  Mo could also be understood as feather.  The actual words are written differently....

[Starjumper]

On 7/12/2017 at 11:56 PM, Aaron said:

Anger is the most insidious of emotions. It causes us the most grief and causes others the most pain. It is only when we understand the nature of anger, to protect us, that we can use it appropriately. One should never act in anger, rather they should use it as a sign that they have become emotionally invested in what's happening and need to take time to reflect, so that they do not act rashly. If you can do this, then revenge is never needed. 

 

Revisiting this thread.  It seems to me that one should never say never.  Identifying the source of anger is good, and the source of anger is fear.  So if you can identify which fear is causing the anger then maybe that reaction can be eliminated in the future.

 

However revenge does not need to come from anger at all, it can come from a sense of justice, and it can also include an element of wu wei.

[Starjumper]

12 hours ago, Zenmode said:

I hear ya, never set out for revenge.

 

57 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Well, for me its not a never.  There are times I see red and react, or just act on outrage.  Not often these years.  I'm trying to gain more space between emotion and action. 

There are times when revenge is damn satisfying, but it has to be weighed against the substantial risk of unknown pain that it could cause, ie entanglements and worst case scenarios.  It's certainly not the best in me, quite the opposite but sometimes you gotta share the pain. 

 

29 minutes ago, Brian said:

I think there is significant difference between an emotional in-the-moment response and a calculated post facto act of revenge.

These quotes are from another thread.

 

Once I was a student of a Korean Zen and Taoist master, and I asked one of his students if he ever killed any bugs.  The student got a faraway look in his eyes, and they said:  yes sometimes, sometimes he sees a bug and says "bad bug, evil bug!" and wham! he smashes it with the palm of his hand.

 

So that is justice, or an attempt at justice, of fulfilling another's karma:  "they asked for it" and who am I to not give someone something they ask for?  I can feel it, I can feel how easily a snowflake might get angry and accuse someone of feeling superior in order to act like that.  Well OK, it could come from a feeling of superiority, and in the game of ethics some people are superior to others, there can be no doubt about that, so let it play.  But consider how it can also come from a sense of wu wei, as an automatic response.  The feeling of wanting revenge or justice is an intrinsic part of human nature, and human nature is not contrary to Tao. 

 

If you see a fly buzzing around your food and then land on a window do you get the fly swatter out?  I do.  There is also the concept of the warrior needing to be judge, jury, and executioner all rolled into one ... and NOT feeling guilty about it.  Guilt would come from denying one's own reactions as coming from self.  But if they admit, "ya, I done it, thats just me and I did a good job of delivering justice, it's ok." then there is the element of wu wei ... and it was also the primary form of serving justice before there were inefficient police and expensive courts burdened with 'technicalities'. 

 

Just some things to consider.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

I agree that as a person matures and identifies their fears that they will less often react or respond, but that isn't the subject of the thread,  The subject is the ethics of revenge.

 

For example, what if someone raped your young daughter and then after dragging her through the courts they got off on a technicality.  What about justice then?

Edited August 1, 2017 by Starjumper
fix double negative

[cold]

Isn't revenge a dish best served cold if one were to employ it :

 

3 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

For example, what if someone raped your young daughter and then after dragging her through the courts they got off on a technicality.  What about justice then?

 

 I propose that delayed response versus immediate reaction, would be premeditated.

Or in cold blood as it were.

Where as an immediate reaction would be in the heat of passion.

 

Not really addressing the ethics though. 

Old testament eye for an eye.

Or

New testament turn the other cheek.

 

How old were and are the parties involved?

What does the victim desire?

[silent thunder]

29 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Revisiting this thread.  It seems to me that one should never say never.  Identifying the source of anger is good, and the source of anger is fear.  So if you can identify which fear is causing the anger then maybe that reaction can be eliminated in the future.

 

However revenge does not need to come from anger at all, it can come from a sense of justice, and it can also include an element of wu wei.

I regularly play games (board and video) that enrage me.

 

I like this, because I am instantly aware that any anger or rage I experience is utterly absurd, since it revolves around this game and it has become a great playing ground for me to engage my anger in a place where I have much control. 

 

I can stop the game and walk away.  Or persist...

 

One thing I have been doing recently is that when a wave of anger rises.  I close my eyes and become body aware and see what sensations I have... try to locate any specific sensations in the body.  I ask where is this anger?  and then just breath.

 

Two things have been happening regularly for me with this.

 

One:  The sensation that stands out is that there is a slight presence of pressure just outside the front of my body, about three or so inches in front of my skin, either in front of my face, or slightly lower than my heart/chest.

 

Two:  In the body presence awareness of simply breathign in presence and asking where the anger is... the anger almost instantly dissipates. 

 

I'm hoping to pull this into my daily interactions at work and home to similar effect.

 

 

 

 

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

I regularly play games (board and video) that enrage me.

 

I like this, because I am instantly aware that any anger or rage I experience is utterly absurd, since it revolves around this game and it has become a great playing ground for me to engage my anger in a place where I have much control. 

 

I can stop the game and walk away.  Or persist...

 

One thing I have been doing recently is that when a wave of anger rises.  I close my eyes and become body aware and see what sensations I have... try to locate any specific sensations in the body.  I ask where is this anger?  and then just breath.

 

Two things have been happening regularly for me with this.

 

One:  The sensation that stands out is that there is a slight presence of pressure just outside the front of my body, about three or so inches in front of my skin, either in front of my face, or slightly lower than my heart/chest.

 

Two:  In the body presence awareness of simply breathign in presence and asking where the anger is... the anger almost instantly dissipates. 

 

I'm hoping to pull this into my daily interactions at work and home to similar effect.

 

That is good advice, and I'll try it.  I don't get angry much anymore (old fart) more like a bit annoyed at best, but if I do get angry then I'll remember to use this method and see what I can see.

[Starjumper]

Here's something else to consider, and it relates back to a couple of my teachers who went 'trolling for muggers'.

 

Quote

If someone threatens to attack a Taoist master, they smile, it makes them very happy, it's like a gift from heaven.  They hope that the attacker is very powerful so they can test their skills, and they hope that the attacker is very evil so that when they destroy them they have helped to rid the world of some evil.

 

Then there's the story I shared here about the tai chi master that killed the punk who was insulting him in the town square.  Maybe a lot of days he would have just walked away, maybe that day he was having a bad hair day.  If it was due to a bad hair day or he was in a bad mood then he still shouldn't feel guilty about it or feel remorse.  He might just tell himself, too bad for that guy that I wasn't feeling so forgiving at the moment.  All these depictions are coming from a place of maturity and experience, and aren't childish tit for tat scenarios.

 

Which brings us to definitions of feeling guilty vs. feeling remorseful.  The way I look at it is that guilt is a form of denial.  Where if someone does something, like say slapping their kid out of annoyance, if they feel guilty about it it's kind of like they're saying:  I'm not really the kind of person that would slap my kid, it's just because some (excuse) which was out of my control.  Therefore feeling guilty is a form of denial.   Remorse, on the other hand would be like when the person thinks: I am the kind of person who would do that because I just did it.  This is the opposite of denial and then if they feel it was the wrong thing to do then they can work on changing their reactions.  Whereas in guilt a person does not feel that there is anything to fix because they aren't really the kind of person who would do that.  Off the hook.

 

So, feeling remorse is what leads to emotional growth, and maybe the only thing.

 

< thread drift />

Edited July 30, 2017 by Starjumper

[Hancock]

You quoted piece of my statement earlier, it's connected to a story where my friend and I engineered revenge on a guy who stole his lAptop and tried befriending him while we didn't know whAt he had done.

 

What bugs me is we were going to intimidate him to apologize, at least that's what I thought was fair given the circumstances. I unwittingly went along with something whereas in my personal life I never sought vengeance before. It bugs me I would do that for someone I care bout but I haven't ever sought revenge on people who've done me wrong.

 

Starjumper, I get what your sensei was saying though.they challenged the guy an didn't know what they were messing with. If challenged, usually you're supposed to accept. Traditionally, it's how it was according to what i learned. Someone comes after you, it's a risk of life. They risk there's an you do everything to maintain your own. It was matter of fact, no game playing, and for keeps.

Nowadays people have so many escape hatches built in by societal norms and this unspoken agreed upon code of behavior that each culture adopts specific to them. It's a lot easier to challenge or get away with offenses that wouldn't have been tolerated way back when. In different societies you still see reflections of yesteryear, but slowly things are changing. An a lot of humanity's Edge is being worn down, made somehow inappropriate, or a problem. It's strange but I've noticed it a lot and revenge itself is something looked at as a moral no-no, we even punish ourselves with guilt or remorse, thereby pulling our edge even more.

 

Interesting how things change.

[voidisyinyang]

doesn't revenge assume linear time causation?

 

Just saying - if someone has very strong emotions that creates a spacetime imprint that is nonlocal and so can be picked up holographically.

 

So for example - I didn't like how a relative acted around me while he was with his friend.

 

I didn't say anything about it but I did go out into the forest and was working - doing physical work intensely while I then focused on my relative.

 

When I went back inside this relative called me - and he had never called me before! - and he asked me if reality really was holographic.

 

So I told him I had just been intensely thinking about it.

 

And so if I meditate a lot - I get visions of emotionally intense events - like deaths of relatives - my dad, a very close friend's mom, etc. Some of this precognitive information could have been telepathy with other relatives of mine who knew the information first.

 

But some of the precognitive dreams were very specific and happened months, if not years before hand - again regarding very intense emotional energy.

 

The qigong masters have talked about how they get contacted by angelic spirits who help them in terms of preventing serious incidents from happening in the future.

 

Also the qigong masters talk about changing the past - in other words if someone is injured, it is much easier to actually travel back in time and prevent the injury from happening in the first place, and that is how the present time injury is healed.

 

But the qigong master told me he doesn't tell people about this happening because he will be describing the context of how their injury happened, and the person will freak out about it.

 

So I guess I am talking about the karma of the Universe - if we trust in the Emptiness and let that energy take care of things - then life gets quite interesting.

 

I would not call it revenge but rather things just balance out on their own. My friend called it the Law of Irony and I said yes the I runs the Y as the 3.

 

So for example I had a coworker email me - and the content of her email was very nice but the energy of her email had so much anger in it that I immediately fasted in full lotus until I could then exorcise her anger. So she had said she wanted a meeting in a few days - in the mean time I was sitting in full lotus outside in a cafe for three days - I would just bike there.

 

Finally on the third day I had this very deep blissful internal kundalini energy - and so my point being that this young female was very well endowed and so her anger was actually subconscious bliss energy.

 

So any of the lower emotional blockages have to first get transformed into "kidney" or bliss energy in order to then open up the heart energy properly.

 

So the negative energies have to return to their subconscious root in the kidney energy and from their translate back into positive bliss energy via the vagus nerve.

 

So then when I had the meeting with her I was very very thankful for the amazing bliss she had given me. haha.

[rex]

Success is the best form of revenge.

 

For and against:

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-success-the-best-revenge

Edited August 1, 2017 by rex
Link added

[Marblehead]

48 minutes ago, rex said:

Success is the best form of revenge.

 

Interesting way of looking at it.  I imagine it would work well in many cases.

 

[Stonehouse]

Revenge. Justice. I know a little about these things from my time as a lawyer. 

These are worldly treasures people seem to want for themselves, but few consider if they are willing to pay the worldly cost of them. 

This tired skinbag will just try and be of use, and direct his modest efforts in that direction. 

Call me thrifty. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Stonehouse

[Stosh]

Revenge being a requirement , that you place upon yourself , to even a score of pride ,

which you also may burden yourself with , is not an indicator of wu wei. 

It's your/anyone's , decision to act like that, to take this handy excuse,

to beat someone up ,kill them or something,...

for the power trip which is intended to pull you/anyone out of some imagined honor deficit.

Justice , similarly , is a moral invention , which has nothing whatsoever with nature or the natural world. 

Self defense is natural , even reflexive, but revenge and justice are other things than that. 

It is indeed far tougher to absorb a loss and cut the chain of reaction, call it karma if you want, 

than it is, to decide you have more power , and to just go ahead and exert it. 

Those who have fighting skills , measure things up just like the weaker do ,

before they decide to venture vengeance ,

and bail out just the same ,when they expect a loss, if not even sooner. 

The impulsive , also measure things , they just come to an abrupt decision that is not really based on much fact. 

I am not saying I haven't ever had the impulse to revenge , nor am I saying I cannot be pushed to that point, 

but , it is not something that should go internally unopposed because its destructive , and often self destructive,

and indicates one is still acting-out on a stage of pride and imagined ego, which you are entitled to do ,

but its not wu wei , it's just a conventional ego action. 

[beingnature]

I think revenge has a lot to do with being overly emotional and clinging to the past and to the parts of yourself that get or got attacked .dont want to say that conflicts shouldnt be solved  (with words or physical) but it should be done in a neutral state of mind and if possible directly or a short time after the conflict happened.I am not saying its easy and what also came to mind is how many little revenges happen al the time like ignoring persons because they didnt show respect to you and and and...I think the point that distinguishes revenge from lots of shotty behaviours we all do is the point that you usually plan it so i think rage is really "evil" behavior.

 

[silent thunder]

this usually makes me chuckle

and nod my head in agreement

 

 

[Stosh]

I like Jack N , but the sentiment isnt any better than revenge. Its meant to be smug and dehumanizing ,as depicted, for both Jack and his foil. As a practical approach, it probably entails fewer technical difficulties though, to simply ignore ones own social instinct. The ugliest atrocities are spearheaded by dehumanizing to enable either revenge or aggression, the idea is to disconnect , but it is also reinforcing ones identity as alien and unrelated. Again, this passive aggressive attitude ,as depicted by the smug image is trying to defend ego.. not wu wei, and completely conventional. 

[Stosh]

..no wonder , I am such a misfit ,if an attitude such as the one depicted, is the sagely lesson of . virtue.