Mo Pai and John Chang

[sageofthesixpaths]

Good day Everyone :-)

I have been a long time reader of this forum, but it is only lately that I have had the urge to join and participate in the discussions. 

Since I still can't post replies to other topics, I might as well start my own.

 

Lately, I have reread the threads that talk about mo pai, with one goal in mind, that is to contact the persons who in their posts had suggested that they know the location of Sifu Chang. I was able to find some. The only problem is they haven't been online for a while. Some of them have not logged in for more than a year. And I think they have no plan to do so in the immediate future. Makes sense since the topic of mopai started to become cold a while back.

And so now, I am asking the remaining good people here for help. I would like to know the location of Sifu Chang in Indonesia. I have read that it is in Jakarta. If anyone knows the town or the street that he lives, I will greatly appreciate your help. Moreso, if you can tell me his address. To those who don't want to divulge it here, you can message it to me privately. 

Thank you very much,

Tian from the Philippines

[Marblehead]

Hello sageofthesixpaths, and welcome.

 

Your membership is approved and we're happy you found your way to us. We look forward to accompanying you on some of the way that you still have to go.

 

Please take the time to read the two posts pinned at the top of this Welcome page and take a look at the forum terms and rules. This covers all you need to know when getting started.

 

For the first week you will be restricted to ten posts per day but after that you can post as much as you like. Also, until you’ve posted fifteen times in the forums, you’ll be a “Junior Bum” with somewhat restricted access and will be allowed only two private messages per day.

 

Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you,

 

Marblehead and the TDB team

 

 

Hi sageofthesixpaths,

 

Could be some one here might be able to help you with your search.  

 

You are welcome to jump right in ongoing discussions, revive an older thread, start a new thread of your own, or start a discussion in the "Newcomer Corner" sub-forms to expand on your introduction or ask general questions to help you get started.

 

May you enjoy your time here.

 

Marblehead

[cold]

Welcome and best luck!

[Starjumper]

I heard that Mr. Chang retired, moved to Bali with his wife to hide from all this, and has stopped teaching.  It's probably best to not consider bothering him.  Other's say he has passed away.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Starjumper

[Ilovecoffee]

sageofthesixpaths, 

 

Unfortunately, anyone who can answer your question here will not be allowed to do so.

 

Discussion on MoPai is not tolerated here by this community. 

 

I would strongly advise you or anyone else not to use the private message function here on this website, as it is not secure. 

 

If you must use it I would recommend ONLY using it to exchange email addresses and do all communication off site for your own sake, and that is as far as I can go into that topic.

 

EDIT:

Others here will tell you I am lying and that the community does tolerate discussion on MoPai, if you want to see the truth for yourself go read this recent thread:

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44486-long-men-pai-nei-gong-and-mo-pai/

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[Kar3n]

5 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

sageofthesixpaths, 

 

Unfortunately, anyone who can answer your question here will not be allowed to do so.

 

Discussion on MoPai is not tolerated here by this community. 

 

I would strongly advise you or anyone else not to use the private message function here on this website, as it is not secure, and that is all I can say about that issue.

 

 

What you are stating is false. 

 

Please refrain from disparaging this forum and its members any further, it is becoming redundant and tiresome. This is the second welcome thread that you are attempting to hijack merely because it mentions MoPai.

 

Please consider this to be formal notice.

[Jonesboy]

7 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

sageofthesixpaths, 

 

Unfortunately, anyone who can answer your question here will not be allowed to do so.

 

Discussion on MoPai is not tolerated here by this community. 

 

I would strongly advise you or anyone else not to use the private message function here on this website, as it is not secure, and that is all I can say about that issue.

 

 

 

As someone who doesn't give a damn about MP one way or another I would say that is far from true. People have tried over and over again to have civil conversations about MP.

 

This is the type of stuff that leads conversations down hill and doesn't reflect well on the tradition and it's members.

 

To the OP,

 

I hope you find your answer and good luck.

[Brian]

Fishing for a ban again...

 

<sigh>

 

 

Welcome, sageofthesixpaths!

[Starjumper]

 

7 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Welcome from another Philippine denizen; I'm in Manila myself.

 

 

Interesting, when I was a young boy I lived in Manila too for three years back in the mid fifties, from ages five to eight.  My dad worked for Goodyear Tire company, they had a tire factory there plus there were a lot of rubber plantations that would supply the rubber.

 

Our house had a high brick wall around it that was topped with broken glass, and it was one block from the beach so I used to go swimming in the bay often.  At that time there were big rusting hulks of cargo ships that had been destroyed in WW2 along the beach and I and my Philippine buddies used to go swimming in the big waves and inside the giant rusting boxes that were full of big holes and small colorful fish.  Once we flew South in a DC3 to a rubber plantation owned by a friend of my dad's and visited for awhile, then we returned on a big old rubber (cargo) boat that had an engine that ran at about 2 beats per second, a nice soft relaxing sound.  We slept on the deck under the stars and it was beautiful.  One day we circled a little island with white beaches and green and palm trees in the middle. We dove off the ship and swam to shore and had a nice BBQ on the beach, BBQed some meat from some giant Conch shells that were in the reef.  I imagine the big city is quite different now.

 

edited - 3rpm was incorrect, it was more like 2 per second.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Starjumper

[Chang]

30 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

sageofthesixpaths, 

 

Unfortunately, anyone who can answer your question here will not be allowed to do so.

 

Discussion on MoPai is not tolerated here by this community. 

 

I would strongly advise you or anyone else not to use the private message function here on this website, as it is not secure. 

 

If you must use it I would recommend ONLY using it to exchange email addresses and do all communication off site for your own sake, and that is as far as I can go into that topic.

 

EDIT:

Others here will tell you I am lying and that the community does tolerate discussion on MoPai, if you want to see the truth for yourself go read this recent thread:

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44486-long-men-pai-nei-gong-and-mo-pai/

 

 

 

 

 

More nonsense from the latest in a long line of more Pie Jihadi's.

 

If anyone on the forum knew the whereabouts of john Chang then they would be at full liberty to pass you details, either in a post or else by message.

 

The fact of the matter is that John Chang does not wish to be found which makes your quest rather difficult if not futile.

[gendao]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

Welcome from another Philippine denizen; I'm in Manila myself.  

 

I would advise you not to pursue Sifu Chang--he is retired and no longer teaching since there is a new head of the school, and it is a closed system, unless you have Chinese heritage, and even then, must be accepted. Also, it is just outside of Jogjakarta you speak of, not Jakarta. 

 

In the meanwhile, there are a myriad of other systems and teachers out there, many of whom include Wang Liping, Jiang Feng, Doo Wai, and many, many, many more who even have representatives here that may resonate with your interests more.

Well, Jiang Feng already sadly passed away just over a year ago...

Edited July 14, 2017 by gendao

[thelerner]

You can find your exact question, how to find JC in quite a few forums over the past 10 years.  Answered by many including former students.  The answer is always the same.  Please don't bother him, he doesn't want to be found. 

 

When I started a thread called Serious Mo Pai discussion, telling people it was purely on techniques and staying away from personalities and controversies, the person who spammed it most, with short sarcastic remarks was Ilovecoffee.

 

For some reason, serious discussion on Mo Pai was an anathema to him. (he has filled up 30 pages and 300+ posts with 3, only slightly varying messages) 

 

addon>

On the subject of finding a teacher.  I may sound like movie puppet here, but books and fame don't make a person great.  Look local, look at there students; those are, most likely what you'll become.  For years, it will be about the fundamentals, quieting the mind, sitting well, honing awareness.  Before you want magic, powers or siddhi's learn to sit, learn equanimity.  Develop a disciplined practice so that you are worthy of a great teacher.

 

 

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

EDIT:

Others here will tell you I am lying and that the community does tolerate discussion on MoPai, if you want to see the truth for yourself go read this recent thread:

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44486-long-men-pai-nei-gong-and-mo-pai/

 

 

Well, maybe, but I still love coffee.  Drinking some at the moment.

 

[morning dew]

2 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

 

In the meanwhile, there are a myriad of other systems and teachers out there, many of whom include Wang Liping, Jiang Feng, Doo Wai, and many, many, many more who even have representatives here that may resonate with your interests more. 

 

 

Yeah, I've no idea who these people are, but I can't believe John Chang is the only person reputed to have 'special powers' even on places like yt.

 

I don't really understand why so much drama surrounds Mo Pai on here; I'm obviously missing something in the history of this forum.

 

 

37 minutes ago, thelerner said:

 

 

addon>

On the subject of finding a teacher.  I may sound like movie puppet here, but books and fame don't make a person great.  Look local, look at there students; those are, most likely what you'll become.  For years, it will be about the fundamentals, quieting the mind, sitting well, honing awareness.  Before you want magic, powers or siddhi's learn to sit, learn equanimity.  Develop a disciplined practice so that you are worthy of a great teacher.

 

 

 

Yeah, sound advice, IMO. I've held for a long time now that students are always a reflection of the kind of person the teacher is. 

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by morning dew

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, morning dew said:

 

Yeah, I've no idea who these people are, but I can't believe John Chang is the only person reputed to have 'special powers' even on places like yt.

 

I don't really understand why so much drama surrounds Mo Pai on here; I'm obviously missing something in the history of this forum.

 

 

 

Yeah, sound advice, IMO. I've held for a long time now that students are always a reflection of the kind of person the teacher is. 

 

 

People with abilities are all over you this forum. I know that they have helped a lot different people as well.

 

It has nothing to do with abilities but more the attitude of certain members in my view.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Jonesboy

[EmeraldHead]

7 hours ago, morning dew said:

 but I can't believe John Chang is the only person reputed to have 'special powers' even on places like yt. 

JC's powers are VERY minimal. Considering what he showed. So is his mentation. He has only has strong chi.

[Marblehead]

30 minutes ago, Arramu said:

JC's powers are VERY minimal. Considering what he showed. So is his mentation. He has only has strong chi.

Speaking of Chi, I watched a program last night that had about twenty minutes talking about the electric eel.  Now there's some Chi for you.  About 500 volts worth.

 

 

 

[Aeran]

10 hours ago, gendao said:

Well, Jiang Feng already sadly passed away just over a year ago...

 

This is true, but his clinic still operates under the leadership of his successor, Dr. Wu. How much of the system's training is still available remains open to speculation however, since Master Jiang's own teacher passed away without transmitting the entirety of his knowledge to Jiang, and Jiang died unexpectedly and relatively young, so it can be assumed that even more knowledge was lost in that tragedy.

 

But at least the early stages (up to an including the developing of the "electric Qi") are still taught and practiced at the clinic - although many students end up spending low 5 figure sums  in herbal treatments before they are deemed ready to even begin the training (I've been told as much as $20 000 USD by sources who have travelled to the clinic and undertaken the process).

 

http://apricotforesthospital.com

 

Aurelian Popa still has his website at http://masterjiang.com/ and still organizes trips for westerners to China, although neither website has been updated to reflect the fact of Jiang Feng's passing.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Aeran

[Starjumper]

33 minutes ago, Aeran said:

This is true, but his clinic still operates under the leadership of his successor, Dr. Wu. How much of the system's training is still available remains open to speculation however, since Master Jiang's own teacher passed away without transmitting the entirety of his knowledge to Jiang, and Jiang died unexpectedly and relatively young, so it can be assumed that even more knowledge was lost in that tragedy.

 

If you think about it, this would always be the case, for a master at least.  I've found that high level teachers continue to learn as they teach and practice, and they are learning faster than their students, so the students can never catch up or learn all of what the teacher knows.  It's just impossible.  If the teacher has a twenty or forty year head start on a student and is dedicated to continue exploring the art and is learning at a faster rate than the student then how can a student learn everything?  The only hope is for the teacher to be able to give the 'keys' to the system, to be able to teach the basics and variations in a way that gives the student a strong solid foundation and a chance to discover more of the methods and to continue growing, but it ends up being up to the student to take advantage of these gifts and go far.  Another thing is that teachers of the past had less distractions (technology does this) than modern people and so had more time to practice.

[Aeran]

48 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

If you think about it, this would always be the case, for a master at least.  I've found that high level teachers continue to learn as they teach and practice, and they are learning faster than their students, so the students can never catch up or learn all of what the teacher knows.  It's just impossible.  If the teacher has a twenty or forty year head start on a student and is dedicated to continue exploring the art and is learning at a faster rate than the student then how can a student learn everything?  The only hope is for the teacher to be able to give the 'keys' to the system, to be able to teach the basics and variations in a way that gives the student a strong solid foundation and a chance to discover more of the methods and to continue growing, but it ends up being up to the student to take advantage of these gifts and go far.  Another thing is that teachers of the past had less distractions (technology does this) than modern people and so had more time to practice.

 

That's a fair point, but in this case we're talking specifically about a master who died fairly young (in his 50's, as I recall), only a few years after his own teacher, and so there are decades of lost teaching time there (from memory, Popa's book said that Dr. Wu had only trained under Jiang for 10 years or so).

 

Anyway I'm not trying to rip on the system or the teachers, I just think it's something that should be put out there since people going to the clinic to train in that lineage often end up making very steep financial investments to gain access to the teachings.

 

This is based off conversations I had with students of the lineage some years ago, as well as reading Popa's book - If anyone more familiar with the situation is able to clarify the details, please feel welcome.

 

And either way, it's definitely a more fruitful path than setting out for Indonesia to hunt down and harass poor John Chang.

[gendao]

On 7/14/2017 at 9:43 AM, Kar3n said:

What you are stating is false. 

 

Please refrain from disparaging this forum and its members any further, it is becoming redundant and tiresome. This is the second welcome thread that you are attempting to hijack merely because it mentions MoPai.

 

Please consider this to be formal notice.

Anyone else but me see what's really going on here?  A classic battle between the young, cocky upstart and the older, more established "council" holding court...

Quote

Bruce Lee was perpetually at odds with the martial arts culture of Chinatown. In fact, there is a laundry list of little-known incidents and tensions that occurred between Bruce and Chinatown martial artists dating back to when he first returned to America in the spring of 1959. As Bruce quickly learned, San Francisco’s martial arts culture operated in very different fashion from the one he experienced in Hong Kong as a teenager.

For about three decades, Chinatown’s kung fu culture was presided over by two longtime local tong enforcers—Lau Bun and TY Wong—whose trailblazing careers have mostly fallen into obscurity. In the 1930s, Lau Bun opened Hung Sing, which is likely the first public school of the Chinese martial arts in America. He maintained a rigid discipline over his students and other martial artists within the neighborhood. For years, Lau Bun did not allow Chinatown to devolve into the sort of daily youth violence that Bruce Lee grew up around on the streets (and rooftops) of Hong Kong during the 1950s, where students from rival martial arts schools regularly challenged each other to fights.

Not long after arriving to San Francisco in 1959, Bruce Lee had a heated incident with Lau Bun and his senior students in Chinatown. “When Bruce came to Hung Sing, he didn’t know anything about San Francisco,” recounts Sam Louie, one of Lau Bun’s senior students at the time. “There were seven or eight of us in class. He came down to show off some hands, and tried to say to us that Wing Chun was the best. So our sifu threw him out.”

Instantly then, Bruce had gotten off to a bad start within Chinatown. These tensions would only build over time as he increasingly became a vocal critic of traditional approaches to the martial arts, which—in his minimalist Wing Chun mindset—he saw as heavy on flair but short on effectiveness. One of the most pointed examples of Bruce’s criticism is hidden in plain sight within Chinese Gung Fu…, where in a photo-by-photo case study, Bruce is seen dismantling specific techniques that are put forth in one of TY Wong’s earlier books. This is featured in a section titled “Difference in Gung Fu Styles,” in which Bruce distinguishes between what he sees as “superior systems” (namely, his own) versus “slower…half-cultivated systems” (that of TY Wong and other “more traditional” masters like Lau Bun). Bruce’s book was readily on sale within Chinatown, and the insults were not lost on locals. So when TY Wong subsequently characterized Bruce Lee as “a dissident with bad manners,” it was a view shared by most martial artists within Chinatown.

A few weeks later before a capacity crowd at the Sun Sing Theater in the heart of San Francisco’s Chinatown, Bruce gave a similar demonstration, and even went as far as to criticize the likes of Lau Bun and TY Wong by declaring “these old tigers have no teeth.”  It was a considerable insult coming from a young martial artist towards two highly-respected members of the community.

This all culminated in the legendary, and controversial, fight between Bruce "Rebel" Lee & Wong Jack "Establishment" Man...

Quote

When David Chin walked through the entrance of Bruce Lee’s martial arts studio in Oakland, California in the fall of 1964, he found Lee stretched out on the floor. Classes were not yet in session, and the 23-year-old instructor was passing time by reading a novel.

Chin approached Lee and handed him an envelope. The contents were written in Cantonese; when Lee finished reading, he looked at Chin and laughed.

The letter expressed a measure of irritation at the way Lee had conducted himself during a demonstration in San Francisco just a few days earlier. It was authored by affiliates of the Gee Yau Seah Academy, some of whom had been in attendance to see Lee’s display of skill and bravado. At the time, Lee had some brash, heated words for anyone who felt they could match his skills.

The letter proposed a meeting between Lee and Wong Jack Man, a fellow Wing Chun stylist who ran a school less than 15 miles away. It was the second such request for Lee to back up his words in a physical confrontation—this time hand-delivered, to ensure Lee received it.

Lee quickly wrote a letter of his own accepting the match, which he gave to Chin. In less than a month, he and Wong would be standing opposite one another. Before they engaged, Lee told Wong about Chin’s messenger services.

The results are still subject to debate today (sadly, it wasn't video'd)...but the parallels between this archetypal conflict and that between Ilovecoffee & The Dao Bums mods now are pretty obvious. 

 

I can only await a written, live, head-to-head, neigong challenge letter to be issued by the mods next, lol.

Edited July 15, 2017 by gendao

[Aeran]

Quote

but the parallels between this archetypal conflict between Ilovecoffee & The Dao Bums mods are pretty obvious.  I can only await a written, live, head-to-head, neigong challenge letter to be issued by the mods, lol.  

 

You're kidding right? The MorePie crew won't even back up their claims in a debate or engage in basic dialogue - the only thing they're challenging is the patience of the mods and the ability of DB members to resist obvious baiting.

 

Maybe it would be a parallel if Bruce Lee had sat outside these other master's schools, holding up a sign saying "WING CHUN IS THE BEST " and screaming about how every other Kung Fu system was fraudulent, but then refusing to even discuss the specifics of Wing Chun, let alone demonstrate the style.

 

Then after being told to piss off repeatedly for being rude and distracting and providing absolutely no genuine discussion or new evidence about anything, the police had finally come along and dragged him away for disturbing the peace, at which point he'd wait a few weeks or months, then send a friend holding the same sign to scream the same slogans outside the same schools, while saying even less about Wing Chun.

 

I mean come on, can you imagine ILoveCoffee's "sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree, I'm not playing this game with you anymore, best wishes and goodbye, sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree, I'm not playing this game with you anymore, best wishes and goodbye, sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree, I'm not playing this game with you anymore, best wishes and goodbye, sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree, I'm not playing this game with you anymore, best wishes and goodbye,sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree, I'm not playing this game with you anymore, best wishes and goodbye..." act being pulled by someone in real life?  Jesus. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Aeran

[doc benway]

On 7/14/2017 at 1:11 AM, sageofthesixpaths said:

Good day Everyone :-)

I have been a long time reader of this forum, but it is only lately that I have had the urge to join and participate in the discussions. 

Since I still can't post replies to other topics, I might as well start my own.

 

Lately, I have reread the threads that talk about mo pai, with one goal in mind, that is to contact the persons who in their posts had suggested that they know the location of Sifu Chang. I was able to find some. The only problem is they haven't been online for a while. Some of them have not logged in for more than a year. And I think they have no plan to do so in the immediate future. Makes sense since the topic of mopai started to become cold a while back.

And so now, I am asking the remaining good people here for help. I would like to know the location of Sifu Chang in Indonesia. I have read that it is in Jakarta. If anyone knows the town or the street that he lives, I will greatly appreciate your help. Moreso, if you can tell me his address. To those who don't want to divulge it here, you can message it to me privately. 

Thank you very much,

Tian from the Philippines

 

Leave the poor man alone.

He does not want a visit from you.

Peace

[sageofthesixpaths]

"Thank you everyone for the replies," this is what I can immediately come up the moment. Specific replies may come later. 

As anticipated, replies came from different perspectives, with some opposing others. What I can tell though is this. I have already made up my mind. I am still searching for Sifu Chang. But I was looking for him not to be his student, to begin with :-). I just wanted to exchange information from him, as teacher/master to another teacher/master. I can even show him something he had not seen yet. And what I am going to do is natural in my perspective. I have visited much older teachers, and they were still open back then. But of course, there is a proper etiquette in visiting teachers :-).

[gendao]

7 hours ago, Aeran said:

Maybe it would be a parallel if Bruce Lee had sat outside these other master's schools, holding up a sign saying "WING CHUN IS THE BEST " and screaming about how every other Kung Fu system was fraudulent, but then refusing to even discuss the specifics of Wing Chun, let alone demonstrate the style.

 

Then after being told to piss off repeatedly for being rude and distracting and providing absolutely no genuine discussion or new evidence about anything, the police had finally come along and dragged him away for disturbing the peace, at which point he'd wait a few weeks or months, then send a friend holding the same sign to scream the same slogans outside the same schools, while saying even less about Wing Chun.

Well, Bruce Lee was like a brash Conor McGregor back then.  Both were aggressively and actively on the offensive to prove their points.  But guys going to that extreme are 1 in a few billion...  Whereas, Ilovecoffee is a lot milder and more just on the defensive whenever the topic comes up. 

 

That doesn't change the fact that the basic dynamics are the same, though.  Bruce Lee basically believed some of the establishment dogma was ineffective, and some of them felt he was just too arrogant and disrespectful.  At the core, the conflict really lies in how to ascertain what the truest (and thereby, most effective) version of something is.  Which is no small feat, particularly in fringe fields.

 

I mean, why did people develop the scientific method?  Why did people start the UFC and MMA cage fighting?  These were all different attempts to validate the truth by controlled repetition or direct competition.

 

So at the end of the day, who "wins?"  The man holding the thunderbolt of truth, rules them all - and moreso, himself!  Hence, we're all constantly seeking it, like sifting through desert sands for water lost in mirages...

 

It's funny to think, however triggered some members feel from Ilovecoffee's uncompromising Mo Pai advocacy here...you can only imagine how certain Chinatown proprietors felt after constantly getting publicly dissed by Bruce Lee in various formats (demos, books, etc), lol... 

 

So, I guess a showdown became inevitable at that point of continual escalation, lol.

 

Anyhow, just adding some greater perspective here by showing a bigger picture at play.  This is not a unique scenario, and there's actually a whole buffet of food for deeper contemplation here..

Edited July 16, 2017 by gendao