Bon and Buddhism

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Why did Indian Buddhism attack Tibetan Bon? From this documentary it seems Buddhism was very active in trying to completely erase Tibetan Bon tradition and it's teachings, which weren't so dissimilar, also Buddhist attempts of making Bon seem primitive/Barbarian etc. Why is it around 2500 years ago you have these religions springing up hell bent on destroying native/ Pagan traditions the world over? In Europe it was Judeo-Christianity attacking Paganism. In Asia it appears Buddhism played that role. It's as though 2500 odd years ago a well organised group wanted to destroy/re-write history, take large parts of it as it's own and veil other things. 
 

I lucid dreamed awhile ago being a monk and leaving a temple, for some reason this seems connected. The landscape seems similar ^ There was conflict between groups in this dream as with ^ I didn't want to be part of it. I was gifted 12 golden candles though I didn't accept them, putting them in a cupboard in the monastery and left.  
 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Golden Dragon Shining

[Apech]

Hi,

 

I think your dates are a little out.  The Buddha lived roughly 2500 years ago but Buddhism didn't appear in Tibet till about 800 AD.  Also I don't think the Jews tried to wipe out pagan religions while Christianity did but mostly after it was adopted by the Roman Empire maybe about 300 AD.

 

Although I am a practicing Buddhist I have to say the political history of Tibet is decidedly patchy and there were attempts to 'replace' Bon with Buddhism.  Although many sects actually assimilated Bon practices and shamanistic approaches - this is particularly true of Nyingmapa.

 

 

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Hm, I mean the seed of these religions seem to have occurred at that time, it may have taken 500-1000-1500+ years, it's seems an ongoing process actually. Forget that part if people like. Buddhism on the warpath/destruction. Some may find other parts of the documentary more interesting. 

Hi

Edited July 14, 2017 by Golden Dragon Shining

[SeekerOfHealing]

Quote

Padmasambhava told “Benza Guru Drubtop”, “If you live on for 7 more years, your eyesight will be recovered.  The reason for you having lost sight in both eyes is that you previously believed in the Bon religion and especially, you had disparaged and despised (noble beings), causing confused inter-dependent phenomenon to arise.  Now although you have seen me, due to that karmic obscuration, you will not be able to immediately regain your eyesight.”

 

 

There is also quote from one book I do not remember how Varjayana master showed they supermancy over bonpo shamans thru siddhis and powers of their practices.

 

Weaker will always die from the hand of stronger, smarter etc. so when it's come to spiritual practices and religion it will be like that too.

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Couldn't Buddhism have shown through eloquent speech, siddhi etc, discussion with leader/teachers. Rather than the destruction of temples, stone by stone, stealing sacred objects. It's like Christians etc saying we killed you because you didn't believe in Jesus, it's your fault haha. Or, you will burn in hell if you don't believe in Jesus etc. "Due to Karma" = "due to sin". I think another good example of never trust foreign religions. Don't let them get one step closer ha. They will take your generosity and offer ruin in return. 
 

Quote

Tonpa Shenrab was said to have already been enlightened in his celestial pre-existence as Chimed Tsugphud ('Chi-med gtsugphud). In this guise, on a higher plane of existence, he transmitted the teachings of Dzogchen and Tantra to a prince from Tazik named Sangwa Dupa (gSang-ba 'dus-pa, Skt. Guhyasamaja), who returned with them to earth. Thereafter he propagated the teachings and subdued many gods and demons for the benefit of humanity. It is said that in a future incarnation this prince became the Buddha Shakyamuni. According to Bonpo Lamas, this would account for the similarities in teaching and practice between Indian Buddhism and Bon. They both have the same ultimate source.

According to Bonpo accounts, namely the hagiographies of Tonpa Shenrab, the mDo- 'dus, the gZer-myig and the gZi-brjid, he is said to have manifested himself as a human being, as a royal prince, in the country of Olmo Lung-ring ('ol-mo lungring), located somewhere in the Iranian-speaking region of ancient Central Asia known as Tazik. This would correspond to the present-day republics of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan and parts of northern Afghanistan. In this region, Iranian-speaking people are still known as Tajiks. However, Olmo Lung-ring is not considered by the Bonpos to be an ordinary geographical location that a tourist might visit. It is a hidden land, or Beyul (sbas-yul) https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=4586

 

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Golden Dragon Shining

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Quote

"Like Gautama, Tönpa Shenrab was of royal birth. Tonpa Shenrab renounced his royal inheritance at the age of thirty-one to travel the path to enlightenment. Tonpa Shenrab embraced the life of a renunciate and commenced austerities, spreading the doctrine of Bon; at length, he arrived in the land of Zhangzhung near what is widely held to be Mount Kailash." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonpa_Shenrab_Miwoche

Was the story stolen? and re-worked? Then the truth was destroyed by a group of well organised thieves for whatever reason, black magicians corrupting/diverting the truth, they change a name, peoples attention/psychic energy is directed elsewhere/ half truth? *shrugs* 
 

Quote

"The sources for the life of Siddhārtha Gautama are a variety of different, and sometimes conflicting, traditional biographies."

"No written records about Gautama were found from his lifetime or some centuries thereafter."

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha

Is Gautama a fraud? The true Buddha originating from Iran/ Northern Afghanistan?

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Golden Dragon Shining

[Apech]

11 hours ago, Golden Dragon Shining said:

Was the story stolen? and re-worked? Then the truth was destroyed by a group of well organised thieves for whatever reason, black magicians corrupting/diverting the truth, they change a name, peoples attention/psychic energy is directed elsewhere/ half truth? *shrugs* 
 

Is Gautama a fraud? The true Buddha originating from Iran/ Northern Afghanistan?

 

Traditionally he was of the Sakhya clan which settled in North India but some think may have been Scythian originally coming from Iran/Afghanistan.  They were a fringe vedic clan who ruled by a kind of committee of elders and did not have a king.  It has been speculated that the reason the Buddha challenged many Vedic principals like the supremacy of the Brahmin class was because of this.

 

Going back to Bon - I think it is true that Bon did not really organise itself into a coherent religion until 11 century (or it might have been as late as 14th) anyway when it did so it took on some of the trappings of Buddhism hence any similarities which may have crept in. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Apech

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Quote

* In all of the early Bonpo texts Olmo Lungring is clearly located to the west and the north of Tibet in Tazig or Central Asia. Moreover, there are two Tazigs, one of a heavenly nature and one quite physical, located in Central Asia. The Kailas mountain and its adjacent region in West Tibet is only a pale reflection of the real Olmo Lungring, the original archetype, which exists at the center of the world. According to the “gZer-mig” and other texts, the region around Tise or Mount Kailas is only a copy in Zhang-zhung of the original in Olmoling. Furthermore, according to the “gZi-brjid”, Dimpling is the same as Shambhala. It is not necessary to pray and do any meditation practice in order to be reborn in Iran or the Central Asia of the USSR, these are quite ordinary earthly places; but it is necessary to pray and to undergo a purification of mind before one can be reborn in Olmo Lungring, or even enter it in this present life, because it is a pure dimension of existence (dag-pa`i zhing-khams). It cannot be seen easily with the ordinary fleshly eye like Iran or Central Asia or even Tibet can. But simply because we do not see it is no proof that it does not exist, for that is the view of the materialists….Symbolically Olmo Lungring is the geographical, psychic, and spiritual center of our world of Jambudvipa (`dzam-bu`i gling) and at its center rises the holy mountain of nine levels, known as Yungdrung Gutseg (g.yung-drung dgu-brtsegs), which links heaven and earth. It is a kind of axis mundi connecting three planes of existence- the heaven worlds, the earth, and the nether regions. Therefore, Olmo Lungring possesses a different ontological status than ordinary geographical regions and countries. In terms of our own age, it is a hidden land or “beyul” (sbas-yul), inaccessible to all but realized beings or Siddhas. This land is said to be inhabited by Vidyadharas (rig-`dzin) or holders of esoteric knowledge. It exists on earth, but it is not an ordinary country or nation which could be observed from an orbiting satellite or sighted from a high flying airplane, for it possesses a special reality all its own. It is in this world, but not quite of it. It is part of our physical geographical world because it is located in Tazig, yet it partly exists in another spiritual dimension, and although material, it is in a certain sense imperishable and indestructible. When, at the end of the kalpa, the world will be destroyed and consumed by fire, Olmo Lungring will spontaneously rise up and ascend into the sky and there it will merge with its celestial archetype in the heavens which is called Sidpa Yesang (srid-pa ye-sangs). Olmo Lungring is truly the imperishable sacred land. https://bonpo.wordpress.com/who-is-buddha-tonpa/

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Golden Dragon Shining

[SeekerOfHealing]

No, Buddha came from mars as annuaki and helped build piramides... my face hurt from faceplaming.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillars_of_Ashoka

 

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/studying/masters/courses/coursehandbooks/ARCLG277

 

... Buddha come originally from India if we speak on Shakyamuni Buddha. 

 

Bonpo is heretic religion like everything which creates yin not yang forces in human being. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Heretical hahah

[pessimystic]

I wonder whether anyone can recommend some books on the Bon tradition? It seems really interesting. I tried doing my own research, but the information is scarce it seems. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by pessimystic

[Golden Dragon Shining]

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Ancient Persian Inscriptions Link a Babylonian King to the Man Who Became Buddha
 

(Read the article on one page)
 

Dramatic evidence has revealed the presence of Siddhartha Gautama, the man who became Buddha, as far west as Persia. Family seals and records found at Persepolis, the ancient capital of the fourth Persian Emperor, Darius the Great, have been identified and associated with the names of Siddhartha Gautama and his father, Suddhodana Gautama.  
 

The Persepolis Seals identified royals and other important personages within the Persian ruling sphere. Guatama was the name of the royal family of the Saka kingdom.
 

Analysis of Seals PFS 79, PFS 796 and PF 250 found among the collection of important seals in Persepolis, the Persian capital of Emperor Darius I, are purported to be the Gautama family according to an interpretation by Dr. Ranajit Pal ( The Dawn of Religions in Afghanistan-Seistan-Gandhara and the Personal Seals of Gotama Buddha and Zoroaster, published in Mithras Reader: An Academic and Religious Journal of Greek, Roman and Persian Studies. Vol. III, London, 2010, pg. 62).

The family crest bore the etching of a crown-headed king flanked by two totems, each a standing bird-headed winged lion. The Seal of Sedda depiction of a Sramana (Persepolis Seal PFS 79), a Lion-Sun shaman, is based on information gathered from a number of other seals the name refers to Sedda Arta (Siddhartha), i.e., Siddha (Liberator of) and Arta (Universal Truth).  http://www.ancient-origins.net/opinion-guest-authors/ancient-persian-inscriptions-link-babylonian-king-man-who-became-buddha-003001

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Golden Dragon Shining

[SeekerOfHealing]

No, there are no any evidence like that. It's like those crazy people who said that Jesus came from tibet or was a yogi, or anything like that.

 

You will believe anything that fits your mindset and actual condition - it does not matter it's true or not as long as it fits = basis of ignorance.

[Starjumper]

21 hours ago, Golden Dragon Shining said:

Why did Indian Buddhism attack Tibetan Bon? From this documentary it seems Buddhism was very active in trying to completely erase Tibetan Bon tradition and it's teachings, which weren't so dissimilar, also Buddhist attempts of making Bon seem primitive/Barbarian etc. Why is it around 2500 years ago you have these religions springing up hell bent on destroying native/ Pagan traditions the world over?

 

The reason is probably due to the pagan or Taoist origins of Bon, in addition to it's focus on developing chi power.  The system originated in the Tien Shan mountains, far to the North, and migrated South to Tibet.  So it was not originally a Buddhist practice, it simply migrated into a land that became Buddhist after, way after, the teachings arrived there.  This is also why they would say it was primitive and barbarian.

 

This explains the history of Bon and it's primary source:

 

----------------------

I found an article written by a master Pak Dong Sun, which was very poorly translated into English and so I have edited it quite a lot to make it clear in addition to removing parts that did not apply to the subject at hand:

Quote

 

Around 5000 years ago, Tien Shan monks, having reached the highest level of skill, were looking for like minded people and went South extending their knowledge.  This knowledge is popularly known these days as the Tibetan teachings of Bon, yet it has it's roots in Taoist chi kung from Tien Shan.  Bon is known as the most powerful school of magic and wonder in the world.  In it's original version Tien Shan was extreme, with the practitioners undertaking certain risks for the sake of attaining super powers.  When the Tien Shan monks reached Tibet they encountered the School of Bon, the strength of which was in it's methodology but the practice was rather weak.  From the unification of these two was born the strongest spiritual system of development of super human Characteristics.  

 

In the history of mankind the heritage of practices of Tien Shan has left a trace in the constellation of the brightest names of Enlightened Masters: Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa and Gambopy.  In The present, to answer the question of the origins of their spiritual mastery, Buddhist, Tibetan, and Nepalese lamas  claim that their “knowledge” originated in the place which is called “Jung-Jung”, “sheng-sheng”, “Tang-sheng” but those names are from different Himalayan dialects which mean the same in Chinese – Tien-Shan!  Even the mythical country of Shambhala is a particular place of the same name in the Tien Shan mountains, if translated from the local dialect means “mountain spring”or “wonderful source”.  In our time a place of beauty, and an amazing ski resort.

 

 

Me, the primitive barbarian.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Starjumper

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Ah, very good. Thank you

[Apech]

"In the history of mankind the heritage of practices of Tien Shan has left a trace in the constellation of the brightest names of Enlightened Masters: Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa and Gambopy. "

 

Can I point out that Naropa and Tilopa were Indian and not Tibetan - so I am not sure if the writer quoted by Starjumper is implying that the Taoists penetrated to the mahasiddhi 'culture' of medieval India or not.  Also it is Gampopa not Gambopy. 

[doc benway]

The Bön / Buddhist history is harsh. Lots of differing perspectives, none of them pretty.

Buddhism has a substantial history of violence in and outside of Tibet.

The beauty lies in the reconciliation and collaboration fostered by His Holiness, the Dalai Lama and others.

That is the lesson to take away.

E Ma Ho!

 

For those interested in Buddhism and Bön:

 

Spoiler

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by steve

[Starjumper]

Can I point out that Naropa and Tilopa were Indian and not Tibetan - so I am not sure if the writer quoted by Starjumper is implying that the Taoists penetrated to the mahasiddhi 'culture' of medieval India or not.  Also it is Gampopa not Gambopy. 

 

That is what was in the original article from Pak Dong Sun, so that's all I know about it, but it seems reasonable that in all the thousands of years involved some of these teachings would have continued on their way further South into India.  

Edited July 15, 2017 by Starjumper

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, pessimystic said:

I wonder whether anyone can recommend some books on the Bon tradition? It seems really interesting. I tried doing my own research, but the information is scarce it seems. 

 

What are you interested in?

History, culture, art, shamanism, sutric, tantric, dzoghcen practices?

Lots of books on Bön - https://www.namsebangdzo.com/Books_on_Bon_s/2453.htm

[Apech]

Just now, Starjumper said:

That is what was in the original article from Pak Dong Sun, so that's all I know about it, but it seems reasonable that in all the thousands of years involved some of these teachings would have continued on their way further South into India.  

 

 

That's a very interesting idea.  I am quite certain that there is more influence from China to Tibet and India than our usual historical accounts allow - which is pretty much one way - but we have to bear in mind those histories were written mostly by Buddhist monks.

 

 

[Apech]

...

18 hours ago, steve said:

The Bön / Buddhist history is harsh. Lots of differing perspectives, none of them pretty.

Buddhism has a substantial history of violence in and outside of Tibet.

The beauty lies in the reconciliation and collaboration fostered by His Holiness, the Dalai Lama and others.

That is the lesson to take away.

E Ma Ho!

 

....

 

This very unfortunately true.  And it's very sobering to think that even adherents of the 'religion' in which there is no promotion of violence to an end, can still use it.  Tibet itself, Sri Lanka, Burma and so on have checkered histories.  This is why I am keen on a secular state with no established religion and the freedom to practice what I want.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Apech

[CedarTree]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

...

 

This very unfortunately true.  And it very sobering to think that even adherents of the 'religion' in which there is no promotion of violence to an end, can still use it.  Tibet itself, Sri Lanka, Burma and so on have checkered histories.  This is why I am keen on a secular state with no established religion and the freedom to practice what I want.

Very well said

[doc benway]

His Holiness 33 Menri Trizin Lungtok Tenpai Nyima Rinpoche 

 

For those interested in Tibetan Bön:

 

Spoiler

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by steve

[CedarTree]

20 minutes ago, Fangshi said:

Am I the only one who is disgusted by these 'Holy men' sitting on thrones, wearing crowns/ hats, and fake smiles?

 

Not sure they are all fake smiles that might be going a bit heavy on what you are getting at but your right the whole coated in gold thing and all this other stuff is a bit much.

 

I think though that a big difference is like in the case of the Dalai Lama he isn't viewed as "just another sentient being" so probably all that is the offering of the community in respect of his office and being.

 

I will say this though, places like Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery and certain Ajahn Chah monasteries that started above or in barns and which meditation rooms simply have a floor and a white Buddha or some small picture of the lineage teacher on the alter shows a real class to me.

 

Real practice at it's finest.

[doc benway]

 

1 hour ago, Fangshi said:

Am I the only one who is disgusted by these 'Holy men' sitting on thrones, wearing crowns/ hats, and fake smiles?

 

Forgive me for posting photos of the leaders of Tibetan Buddhism and Bön, in a thread about Tibetan Buddhism and Bön...

I've hidden them so you can rest easy.

Peace

_/\_