Gathering the best expressions of different Tai Chi Chuan styles

[CloudHands]

Hello Bums,

 

I'd like to watch and compare the different Tai Chi old long solo forms. If the style has been created after the XIXth it doesn't qualify !

I expect participants to be aware about what they talk and post a video of an archetype of the style.

So, to discourage easy posting, I'd like posters to provide a minimum of background information about what form it is and who does it.

 

Every practitioner with a dedicated long run practice in the particular style is welcome to share his/her knowledge.

 

I know that sound a little elitist and rigid but I don't wish this thread to be extensive with everyone posting his teacher's form. I mean... it's ok if your teacher is lineage holder !

 

That bejing said, it goes where it goes

[doc benway]

I'll lead off with a lesser known form which I feel is worth knowing about:

 

Guang Ping Yang taijiquan

Guang Ping Yang style form is said to be the original form adapted by Yang Luchan from his training in Chen village.

Yang Luchan --> Yang Panhou --> Wang Jiaoyu --> Kuo Lienying (who brought it to San Francisco)

Master Kuo was the author of The Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle

 

 

 

As for the person demonstrating, it is the late Grandmaster Chiang Yunchung:

 

http://slantedflying.com/tai-chi-master-y-c-chiang-passes-away/

Edited July 18, 2017 by steve

[Brian]

I practiced Guang Ping Yang for several years before discovering Stillness-Movement and realizing my calling was in a specific direction.

[doc benway]

4 minutes ago, Brian said:

I practiced Guang Ping Yang for several years before discovering Stillness-Movement and realizing my calling was in a specific direction.

I'd love to hear anything you'd like to share.

I've played with some solid Guang Ping folks but never studied it.

 

I do read Master Kuo's book [...not did, mind you - I never stop learning from this book!] 

I've heard some criticism of it's provenance but I think it is brilliant.

Do you know anything about it?

 

[Brian]

53 minutes ago, steve said:

I'd love to hear anything you'd like to share.

I've played with some solid Guang Ping folks but never studied it.

 

I do read Master Kuo's book [...not did, mind you - I never stop learning from this book!] 

I've heard some criticism of it's provenance but I think it is brilliant.

Do you know anything about it?

 

My understanding of the lineage is that it is the "family" tai chi which largely became a family secret when Yang Luchan was asked to teach his fighting system to the Imperial Guards.  Not wanting to share his art with the Manchu oppressors but also wisely unwilling to refuse the Emperor's request, he slightly altered what he taught them, which became known as Yang style taichichuan, in order to make it effective but not fully effective.  The original system is what became known as Guang Ping Yang, using the name of the village to distinguish it from the more popular & accessible Yang style.

 

This could, of course, be nonsense.

 

I learned the system from a local instructor when I lived in another part of the state, a gentleman who also taught a form of praying mantis kung fu and who took annual trips to China to increase his knowledge of these two arts.  I had practiced a different form of praying mantis in my late teens and early twenties but, when I life drew me back to the arts in my mid-forties, I was looking for something different.  Guang Ping Yang filled the bill very nicely until I realized my interest lay in a different set of frequencies.

[Starjumper]

It seems to me that the video that needs to be front and center in a thread like this is one of the Chen grandmaster doing the old style of Chen Tai Chi, which is the original flavor of all the tai chi.  Chen Xiaowang said that even Chen style was being simplified and so he turned that around and started making it more complicated, like it was originally.

 

 

This appears to be a short version of a similar style.  (I don't know what Yi Lu or Erlu mean)

 

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Starjumper

[CloudHands]

This first video is awesome... It looks very different from Chen style, doesn't it ?

I have find another video maybe less time stretched where I can recognize similar sets of movements to the Yang Chengfu's form but performed in a (more) Chen spirit (with speed and stance variations, fajins).

 

I'm very grateful Steve, Guang Ping Yang Tai Chi is at the crossroad : you offered me the missing link.

 

“Although there are myriad variations, there is only one underlying principle.”

[CloudHands]

As a note : Yangjia Michuan Taiji Quan claim to be as well the original Yang Luchan's form -but I did not found any prominent demonstration.

This honorable man has probably spent a lot of time searching for a new system to transmit. Anyway that's the style Yang Jianhou (brother of Yang Banhou) transmitted to Yang Chengfu. Which one created the modern Yang form then.

 

It's very interesting to notice that in the beginning of XXth both Chen and Yang Tai Chi created new forms, in opposite directions, to make it more appealing. One more openly martial the other oriented toward health and meditation.

 

When it comes to the Yang secretly passed family form, maybe but I doubt of it. Could be the Yang fast form, it's now semi-secret. You can see it on the link but still rare are the persons that teach it.

[doc benway]

15 hours ago, CloudHands said:

Could be the Yang fast form, it's now semi-secret. You can see it on the link but still rare are the persons that teach it.

 

[Removed out of respect]

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by steve

[Starjumper]

54 minutes ago, CloudHands said:

When it comes to the Yang secretly passed family form, maybe but I doubt of it. Could be the Yang fast form, it's now semi-secret. You can see it on the link but still rare are the persons that teach it.

 

The Yang double form created by grandmaster Tchoung Ta Tchen had six sections to his regular long form, but he also had a section nine which was done separately and it was very fast and looked a lot like Xin Yi with a lot of jumping around and fajin.  Possibly these two forms, the one you show and Tchoung's, are similar.  His sections seven and eight were opposite sides of a partner set.  Here's a video of him doing section 9 when he was in South Africa,  I've seen a student of his do it much faster.  https://youtu.be/2DSW-EGgT9A

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Starjumper

[CloudHands]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

Not sure I can take the gstaichi.org stuff too seriously after looking at their dynamic push hands videos but one never knows...

 

 

I'll write small because it's not strictly related to this thread.

 

Yes I know it looks like ridiculously overplayed and maybe it is. For the show ? Voluntarily ? Or not at all ? I don't know. But you know what ? I'm supposed to be physically much stronger than my teacher, still I can't unroot him. He also unlocked my daughter's ankle when she was 16 months... and that, without touching it. So I guess there is something to learn.

Edited July 18, 2017 by CloudHands
english...

[Wu Ming Jen]

 This is one of my teachers his school is at the bottom of the mountain closer to town. These forms are open to the public to learn.

Wudang Quan

Xuangong Quan 玄功拳 Xuanzhen Quan 玄真拳  Fuhu Quan (Tiger Form) 伏虎拳  Longhua Quan (Dragon Form) 龙华拳  Xuanwu Quan 玄武拳  Baji Quan 八极拳  Xingyi Quan (Body and Will Fist) 形意拳 Bagua Zhang (Bagua Palm) 八卦掌  Taiji 13 Form 太极十三势  Taiji 28 Form 太极二十八式  Taiji 108 Form 太极108式 Taihe Quan 太和拳 Taiyi Wuxing Quan (Taiyi Five Elements Form) 太乙五行拳 Taiyi Xuanwu Quan 太乙玄武拳

[Wu Ming Jen]

Grandmaster Chiang Yunchung: shows traditional stepping methods of walking on air or rootedness in motion even when the foot is not touching the ground. The foot work also applies to leg traps and using the legs to bump someone of balance.

 

One form I practice has a cross kick to break the knee and body structure and then lift kick with opposite foot trapping the other leg of the opponent and lifting over our head.

 

(This is one kick combo is practiced and drilled 10,000 times but not safe to practice on another person unless slow and just touching the knee of one leg and not raising your leg all the way up after trapping the other leg so no one falls over and gets hurt.)

 

The forms I currently do have very traditional stepping/ immortal stepping. Taiyi Wuxing Quan demonstrates this type of stepping  with a trap, brush, bump, change in direction and kick simultaneously.

[doc benway]

Here is the best version of 99 Forms of Chen Panling I've come across (this video credits the form to Wang Shujin but most sources credit CPL). Chen Panling created this form while working with the Central Guoshu Committee which he chaired prior to WW2. The committee was charged with creating standardized national kuo shu materials and this form incorporates Yang, Wu, Chen, and Sun elements. 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by steve

[Taomeow]

10 hours ago, CloudHands said:

Hello Bums,

 

I'd like to watch and compare the different Tai Chi old long solo forms. If the style has been created after the XIXth it doesn't qualify !

I expect participants to be aware about what they talk and post a video of an archetype of the style.

So, to discourage easy posting, I'd like posters to provide a minimum of background information about what form it is and who does it.

 

Every practitioner with a dedicated long run practice in the particular style is welcome to share his/her knowledge.

 

I know that sound a little elitist and rigid but I don't wish this thread to be extensive with everyone posting his teacher's form. I mean... it's ok if your teacher is lineage holder !

 

That bejing said, it goes where it goes

 

My teacher is.  But to be truly elitist, I'd offer a different requirement here (I mean if it was my thread, of course ):

 

only post what you see as great expressions of the specific forms you personally practice.  Otherwise it's no different from going to youtube and doing a search... 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icxGuADIokQ&t=14s

[Wu Ming Jen]

Wudangs strategy is to fend off hard attacks with soft movements, defeat the strong in a yielding way, confront the active with stillness, beat the fast in a slow manner and strike out only after an opponent has struck first. It emphasizes defense rather than offense. This is because Taoism promotes peace and harmony, rather than conflict; so Wudang kung fu is meant for protection, not destruction.

 

Wudang kung fu has three main styles, namely, baguazhang, Tai Chi Chuan and xingyiquan.

 

Baguazhang, literally “Eight Trigram Palm,” is named after the trigrams of “I Ching” or “Classic of Changes,” an ancient Chinese divination text and one of the key ideological foundations of Taoism. Circle walking is the customary movement of Baguazhang. Also a formidable martial art used by the bodyguards of the imperial palace and trade route protection, key skill, multiple opponents..

 

Tai Chi Chuan combines slow, deliberate movements, meditation and deep breathing. It is today chiefly a mind-body practice to help treat or prevent health problems, as well as delay aging.When practiced as a martial art it's like getting a degree at Oxford,  Harvard or Yale

 

Xingyiquan, which translates literally to “Shape-will Boxing,” is the oldest of the Wudang internal martial arts. It concentrates on the mind and the shape of the body, rather than physical strength and heavy handed force. It is primarily composed of five basic fist movements, all exercised at short range.

Some documents indicate that xingyiquan was created in imitation of the fighting techniques and spirit of 12 animals — such as the tiger, monkey, snake, eagle, horse and bear — to tap into the natural instincts and fighting abilities those animals possess.

 

After many years of family style Tai Chi Chuan which developed a great foundation for myself  I also had a calling to WuDang Style. I met Master Chen a prodigy of wudang mountain, a Taoist priest. He did a weekend seminar where I live and I continued to study with him as much as possible. His profound influence encouraged me to go to Wudang and continue my practice in China as well as here in the USA. Master Bing is now in the USA as well from WuDang Shen.  

 

Know you know toooo much about me and the expression of my Tai Chi style.. 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

My teacher is.  But to be truly elitist, I'd offer a different requirement here (I mean if it was my thread, of course ):

 

only post what you see as great expressions of the specific forms you personally practice.  Otherwise it's no different from going to youtube and doing a search... 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icxGuADIokQ&t=14s

 

In that case...

 

I never practiced Guang Ping but I highly recommend Master Kuo's book Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle which is how I learned about the style. I'm going to leave the video up because it's superb.

 

I do still practice Chen Panling's 99 most days. 

 

 

A very nice example of what I'm currently studying... performed by my teacher's teacher's nephew:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJOcx0rWfM8

 

[CloudHands]

11 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

My teacher is.  But to be truly elitist, I'd offer a different requirement here (I mean if it was my thread, of course ):

 

only post what you see as great expressions of the specific forms you personally practice.  Otherwise it's no different from going to youtube and doing a search... 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icxGuADIokQ&t=14s

 

That's an interesting evolution, and a clear limitation. But elitism is not the point and that would be elite related only. What would be elitist would be to demonstrate the form by ourselves. Who consider him/herself good enough to fit the standard of a proper demo ? Any tai chi elite on the board ?

 

That is not my path and I acknowledge actual Yang Tai Chi Chuan as a shared health system much more than a fighting method. I can't find any modern icon, I'll explain later why. Nevertheless... doing a perfect Yang form is an endless pursuit and I actually see very few Yang videos that fit my expectations, considering I look for certain details and Yang style has become a plethora of variant since it became popular.

 

Interesting point, 80 years after the death of Yang Chengfu the knife form transmitted by Tung Ying-chieh (good but not high class video) is the closest to the one I practice transmitted by the Chu family.

These are the best knive forms I could find and honestly they don't amaze me but I recognize the work put on.

 

I find that one marvelous

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by CloudHands

[doc benway]

Going back to the original format, I don't practice this style but find the body movement interesting.

Hulei Jia Taijiquan, Thunder Style.

It can be traced back to Li Jinyan, student of Chen Qingping, 7th generation Chen master

 

This is Grandmaster Zhang Suisheng

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by steve

[windwalker]

On 7/18/2017 at 9:47 AM, Brian said:

This could, of course, be nonsense.

 

a good assessment.

 

a little history from a friend of mine

 

Quote

As for deceiving the prince of Qing Dynasty for all those years, that is just not possible for someone in his position.  First: before coming to Beijing Yang Luchan spent his entire adult life as an indentured servant.  He was freed only because his master died, and it was unseemly for an single adult male his age to be living alone with the widow of the master.  A commoner cannot even loiter outside a prince’s palace without permission.  

 

Before coming to Beijing, Yang Luchan first went back to his hometown of Yongnian.  There he seriously injured an opponent during a fight.  The challenger’s family and clan sought revenge.  When Yang Luchan came to Beijing, he was able to keep a low profile for a while, taking a job as a regular family tutor (literature, not martial art) for the owner of a famous pickled vegetable shop.  

 

However when one day a band of 20 brigands tried to rob the factory shop, he single-handedly defeated all of them.   Soon the old enemies showed up at his door again.

 

Quote

The shop he worked at – Tianyishun Jiangyuan (天义顺酱园), supplies the imperial family.  The owner knew Duan Wang, the cousin to the emperor.  The shop owner Zhang Fengqi (张凤岐) introduced Yang to the prince, with the idea that with him serving the prince, trouble will stop following him once and for all.  And that was the way things worked out.  Not only did it provide livelihood, honor, and prestige, but the association with the prince provided security and peace of mind as well.  

 

Why would Yang Luchan, whose life has been mostly impoverished and troubled up to this point, do anything so outrageous and daring as secretly creating two systems of teaching and deceive the person he depended everything on?!

 

Quote

Besides, we all know how counter-intuitive the slow Taijiquan training method is.

 

 

 How would it look to the prince if he and his men spent years training with little results, while Yang’s own son Banhou, who is 3 years younger than Quan You and others, grew by leaps and bounds in skill?  Such deception is simply not possible.

 

Quote

Besides, we knew people inside the palace got the real skill.  As the famous saying goes “Of Luchan’s students, Wanchun (萬春) got his hard fajin, Lingshan (凌山) was adapt as throwing, and Quanyou (全佑) was skilled at neutralization.”   So these were his three best students (besides his sons of course).  Wangchun, Lingshan, and Quanyou were Manchurian guards working at Prince Duan’s palace.   Wangchun and Lingshan had no desciples, Quanyou today is respected as founder of Wu Style Taijiquan.

 

 According to family lore within Taiji circles, there were actually two other Manchurian students who obtained Taijiquan skill before these three, but they both perished during the invasion of Eight-Nation Alliance.

https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/?wref=bif

 

 

 

my teachers taiji form,  his teacher is not known.

a little of his history for those interested

https://journeytoemptiness.com/2017/01/13/master-zhang-yongliang/

 

My own taiji style does not reflect this way of practice although I can play the form the same way, it does not accord with my ideas and  practice at this time. My own emphasis is very different.  

Edited July 20, 2017 by windwalker

[CloudHands]

That is, referring to the Yang tradition, as carried by Yang Luchan->Yang Chien Hou->Yang Chengfu->Yang Sau Chung, the purest form you can find.

 

I'm thankful for this video.

 

 

 

I actually don't know much about Yang Chengfu. Has someone some knowledge or reliable sources about him ?

Edited July 22, 2017 by CloudHands
typo

[flowing hands]

Here are some bits of forms including the beginning of a Tai Ji form. Unfortunately these were originally recorded 21 years ago on tape and have been uploaded on a Mac, then converted for windows, so they are pretty bad quality. Equally without buying a converter I have only been able to upload the first bit of each form.

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by flowing hands
vid not working

[Brian]

46 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

Here are some bits of forms including the beginning of a Tai Ji form. Unfortunately these were originally recorded 21 years ago on tape and have been uploaded on a Mac, then converted for windows, so they are pretty bad quality. Equally without buying a converter I have only been able to upload the first bit of each form.

 

I get "This video is unavailable"

 

[Brian]

On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 4:26 AM, CloudHands said:

That is, referring to the Yang tradition, as carried by Yang Luchan->Yang Chien Hou->Yang Chengfu->Yang Sau Chung, the purest form you can find.

 

I'm thankful for this video.

 

 

 

I actually don't know much about Yang Chengfu. Has someone some knowledge or reliable sources about him ?

Thank you!

[flowing hands]

4 minutes ago, Brian said:

I get "This video is unavailable"

 

Sorry my silly computer needs to be recycled plus I am unable to cut the original vid from my post and replace it with the right one. The tools of the site seem a bit lacking.