Crowley and Daoism

[morning dew]

 

I've only read bits and pieces of Crowley's stuff, but it seemed to me the 'Eastern' parts in general seemed a little bit dated – I'm sure they were advanced for their time, though.

 

Just curious if there is anyone on here who has deeper knowledge of both. If so, how relevant are Crowley's ideas on Eastern stuff now and would time be better spent on many of the more recent books that have come out for understanding things like Daoist practices etc?

Edited July 18, 2017 by morning dew

[Seatle185]

Alot of people have benefited from Crowleys writings. I have never personally looked very deep into crowleys works, but i know he wrote his interpretation of the tao te ching. I havent read so i couldnt say but i remember a recent interview with damo mitchell he was asked what his opinion on crowleys version was and his response was "its rubbish... complete rubbish" haha i dont know i just thought that was pretty funny. But the good thing about different translations is some people just resonate more with certain writers and they can understand it better from their perspective.

 

Hmm. The books that i would personally recomend for taoist practice other than the i-ching and tao te ching is understanding reality and secret of the golden flower. Hopefully it helps

Edited July 19, 2017 by Seatle185

[voidisyinyang]

Crowley was a big fake - he couldn't even do the "O at a D" as Colin Wilson pointed out in the book The Occult, referencing Rom Landu's God's Adventure book.

 

It's amazing how idiotic Westerners are with their whole Crowley fixation. Welcome to thetaobums! haha. Hilarious.

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

Crowley was a big fake - he couldn't even do the "O at a D" as Colin Wilson pointed out in the book The Occult, referencing Rom Landu's God's Adventure book.

 

It's amazing how idiotic Westerners are with their whole Crowley fixation. Welcome to thetaobums! haha. Hilarious.

 

 

 

What is it he couldnt do  (even ) ?   O at a D  ?  

 

'The Occult' by Wilson is very dated and not that deep ... isnt it ? 

 

But why read Crowley on TTC ?   Thats like reading BSR ' transliterations '  on Rumi , when one can read Rumi directly translated. 

[morning dew]

11 hours ago, Seatle185 said:

Alot of people have benefited from Crowleys writings. I have never personally looked very deep into crowleys works, but i know he wrote his interpretation of the tao te ching. I havent read so i couldnt say but i remember a recent interview with damo mitchell he was asked what his opinion on crowleys version was and his response was "its rubbish... complete rubbish" haha i dont know i just thought that was pretty funny. But the good thing about different translations is some people just resonate more with certain writers and they can understand it better from their perspective.

 

 

 

LOL! I can imagine he slated it. I'll have to dig it out for examination.  

 

Quote

Hmm. The books that i would personally recomend for taoist practice other than the i-ching and tao te ching is understanding reality and secret of the golden flower. Hopefully it helps.

 

Thanks, I still haven't got round to reading either of those.

[morning dew]

8 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Sifu Terry Dunn actually mentioned Crowley in a positive light and that his translation of the Tao Te Ching is worth a read through. I find it a bit hard to follow honestly, and see it as more of a reflection of his practice rather than Taoist philosophy. 

 

That's interesting. Do you think Crowley has anything of interest to say in general about Taoist philosophy (or even yogic/tantric practices) any more?

[morning dew]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

What is it he couldnt do  (even ) ?   O at a D  ?  

 

'The Occult' by Wilson is very dated and not that deep ... isnt it ? 

 

But why read Crowley on TTC ?   Thats like reading BSR ' transliterations '  on Rumi , when one can read Rumi directly translated. 

 

I'm not sure what that is either.  

 

But yeah, Wilson is probably just as dated as Crowley nowadays. (It's been ages since I've flicked through The Occult.)

[morning dew]

14 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

He certainly does, as can be seen in the Thoth tarot deck. 

 

Yeah, it's a very popular deck. I'm just a dabbler with tarot, so I've never really got round to working with it.

 

Would you like to expand a little bit on this?

 

I know Michael (Sternbach) is a big fan as well; I'd be quite interested to see his input on this thread, but I don't know how to tag him?

[Seatle185]

7 hours ago, morning dew said:

 

LOL! I can imagine he slated it. I'll have to dig it out for examination.  

 

 

Here is the specefic interveiw in case you or anyone else is interested. Alot of interesting stuff in there in my opinion. Be warned this is a 2+ hour interview

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I first read Crowley, the Dao De Jing and the Yijing as a teenager in the Sixties.  In the meantime I have studied and practiced things that Crowley simply did not have access to.  He is pretty much useless for Daoism, his strongest work on Eastern traditions is in the area of Hindu/Buddhist ideas, especially Theravadan Buddhism through his association with Alan Bennett.  He introduced yoga type training to Western magic, but his sex magic teaching are not "tantric" in the sense of originating in real Tantric literature, but probably derive from the teachings of Paschal Beverly Randolph, by way of the Ordo Templi Orientis.  Bearing in mind the vast development in literature and resources on Eastern traditions that has emerged even since I was a teenager, there is precious little reason to turn to him for guidance in anything other than his own adaptations of Western magic, and personally based on my own experience and study of decades, I don't recommend that either.

[morning dew]

1 hour ago, Seatle185 said:

 

 

Here is the specefic interveiw in case you or anyone else is interested. Alot of interesting stuff in there in my opinion. Be warned this is a 2+ hour interview

 

I got sucked into watching the first hour until I got to his Crowley analysis: LOL! He's certainly not a fan.  

 

This is the first time I've actually seen him or heard anything he's got to say, and I have to say I was very impressed, especially given his age. He is a very good speaker, very clear, and quite humble and obviously well read and practised. 

[morning dew]

27 minutes ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

I first read Crowley, the Dao De Jing and the Yijing as a teenager in the Sixties.  In the meantime I have studied and practiced things that Crowley simply did not have access to.  He is pretty much useless for Daoism, his strongest work on Eastern traditions is in the area of Hindu/Buddhist ideas, especially Theravadan Buddhism through his association with Alan Bennett.  He introduced yoga type training to Western magic, but his sex magic teaching are not "tantric" in the sense of originating in real Tantric literature, but probably derive from the teachings of Paschal Beverly Randolph, by way of the Ordo Templi Orientis.  Bearing in mind the vast development in literature and resources on Eastern traditions that has emerged even since I was a teenager, there is precious little reason to turn to him for guidance in anything other than his own adaptations of Western magic, and personally based on my own experience and study of decades, I don't recommend that either.

 

This is an excellent answer. Many thanks for taking the time to write that.  

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, morning dew said:

 

Yeah, it's a very popular deck. I'm just a dabbler with tarot, so I've never really got round to working with it.

 

Would you like to expand a little bit on this?

 

I know Michael (Sternbach) is a big fan as well; I'd be quite interested to see his input on this thread, but I don't know how to tag him?

 

See  Thoth tarot  2 of discs  for one example ; 

 

 

 

 

 

"  . It shows the type of Energy appropriate to Two, in its most fixed form. According to the doctrine that Change is the support of stability, the card is called Change.  ....   The card represents two Pantacles, one above the other; they are the Chinese symbols of the Yang and Yin duplicated as in the Hsiang. One wheel is dextro- and the other laevo-rotatory. They thus represent the harmonious interplay of the Four Elements in constant movement. One may in fact consider the card as the picture of the complete manifested Universe, in respect of its dynamics.  About them is entwined a green Serpent  His tail is in his mouth. He forms the figure Eight, the symbol of the Infinite, the equation 0=2. "   - 'Book of Thoth ' 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

21 hours ago, morning dew said:

 

Yeah, it's a very popular deck. I'm just a dabbler with tarot, so I've never really got round to working with it.

 

Would you like to expand a little bit on this?

 

I know Michael (Sternbach) is a big fan as well; I'd be quite interested to see his input on this thread, but I don't know how to tag him?

 

I was just a little busy over on the Eclectic Tarot forum. As a new born baby, it requires quite a lot of care. Thank you for conjuring me though!

 

22 hours ago, morning dew said:

 

That's interesting. Do you think Crowley has anything of interest to say in general about Taoist philosophy (or even yogic/tantric practices) any more?

 

I recall that I quite liked his "Eight Lectures on Yoga" when I read it so many years ago.

 

I glanced through his edition of the DDJ in preparation of this reply, and I actually didn't find it less faithful or otherwise inferior to other translations that I have read. Notably, he extended the first chapter with his model of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life in unison with the Bagua of the Yijing though. He elaborates on this scheme in the appendix of the Book of Thoth.

 

 

Crowley considered this synthesis of Western and Eastern esoteric fundamentals one of his greatest achievements. Based on the correspondences between the Bagua and the Aristotelian elements shown here, he attributed each of the Court cards of the Tarot with an Yijing hexagram.

 

The parallels between the two systems derived in this way are quite interesting. There was a thread on this topic started by me in the now archived Aeclectic Tarot forum.

 

http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=226380

 

In reply to your question as per the OP: If you were simply a newbie with an interest in Daoism and/or Eastern philosophy in general (which I know you are not), I most likely wouldn't recommend turning to Crowley for an introduction to the topic. There are plenty of good modern books written by specialists in those topics available today.

 

But if you already had some background in Crowley's syncretistic system and wanted to know more about his perspective on Daoism, Yoga etc., or vice versa, if you wanted to use an existing knowledge base in Eastern philosophy to facilitate finding access to AC's intricate work, then I would say, by all means, go ahead with this.

[morning dew]

Some more outstanding posts. Many thanks  

 

I'll get back to these in more detail later on.

[morning dew]

8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

I was just a little busy over on the Eclectic Tarot forum. As a new born baby, it requires quite a lot of care. Thank you for conjuring me though!

 

 

I recall that I quite liked his "Eight Lectures on Yoga" when I read it so many years ago.

 

I glanced through his edition of the DDJ in preparation of this reply, and I actually didn't find it less faithful or otherwise inferior to other translations that I have read. Notably, he extended the first chapter with his model of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life in unison with the Bagua of the Yijing though. He elaborates on this scheme in the appendix of the Book of Thoth.

 

 

Crowley considered this synthesis of Western and Eastern esoteric fundamentals one of his greatest achievements. Based on the correspondences between the Bagua and the Aristotelian elements shown here, he attributed each of the Court cards of the Tarot with an Yijing hexagram.

 

The parallels between the two systems derived in this way are quite interesting. There was a thread on this topic started by me in the now archived Aeclectic Tarot forum.

 

http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=226380

 

In reply to your question as per the OP: If you were simply a newbie with an interest in Daoism and/or Eastern philosophy in general (which I know you are not), I most likely wouldn't recommend turning to Crowley for an introduction to the topic. There are plenty of good modern books written by specialists in those topics available today.

 

But if you already had some background in Crowley's syncretistic system and wanted to know more about his perspective on Daoism, Yoga etc., or vice versa, if you wanted to use an existing knowledge base in Eastern philosophy to facilitate finding access to AC's intricate work, then I would say, by all means, go ahead with this.

 

Haha! My magic powers are working. I managed to summon you.  

 

Yeah, I've read some of the Eight Lectures of Yoga and also some of Magick Without Tears. I'm trying to remember what else … The Book of the Law.

 

Very interesting on the DDJ. It's good to get other people's opinions. I find Damo a fascinating person to listen to, but he comes across as very traditional and I tend to spend my time hanging out in Chaos Magick groups in Facebook lol

 

Ah, I never got round to reading the Book of Thoth because I never got the cards. That's a fascinating diagram. I must share this with some friends I know.

 

Yes, that looks a very interesting thread. I'm slowly working through it.

 

Thanks for the input on him. I find him quite an interesting writer and also quite funny in places, although I'm wasn't planning on becoming a Thelemite.  I'll probably shelve him for a while to read more recent stuff, but may well return to him in more depth at a later point.

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by morning dew

[morning dew]

4 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

My friend Benebell Wen, author of Holistic Tarot and The Tao of Craft has better commentaries on Taoism and Crowley's particular approach to it on her blog https://benebellwen.com/.

 

I can't recall where the actual post was, but in our private conversations, she has noted that Crowley isn't one of her favorites for application or understanding of the Tao from a purist perspective, and she also rips up Haindl's tarot, which also uses the I-Ching. 

 

Personally, I'm not one to comment as much either, but I enjoy what I have read from both the sources criticizing Crowley and Haindl, and from Crowley and Haindl themselves, accuracy aside. 

 

Very interesting. Yeah, I was reading Michael's thread and Haindl doesn't really structure the I Ching as Crowley does, or in any meaningful way aside from its own peculiar system.

 

I heard one of her interviews a while ago on YouTube. I thought she was very good. It was about her The Tao of Craft. That book actually looked quite interesting. I'll have to add it to the ever-increasing list lol  

[Zhongyongdaoist]

1 hour ago, morning dew said:

 

Very interesting. Yeah, I was reading Michael's thread and Haindl doesn't really structure the I Ching as Crowley does, or in any meaningful way aside from its own peculiar system.

 

I heard one of her interviews a while ago on YouTube. I thought she was very good. It was about her The Tao of Craft. That book actually looked quite interesting. I'll have to add it to the ever-increasing list lol  

 

I reviewed The Tao of Craft here:

 

 

[morning dew]

Great review. You're a good writer, IMO.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Thank you for your kind words.

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

My friend Benebell Wen, author of Holistic Tarot and The Tao of Craft has better commentaries on Taoism and Crowley's particular approach to it on her blog https://benebellwen.com/.

 

I can't recall where the actual post was, but in our private conversations, she has noted that Crowley isn't one of her favorites for application or understanding of the Tao from a purist perspective, and she also rips up Haindl's tarot, which also uses the I-Ching. 

 

Personally, I'm not one to comment as much either, but I enjoy what I have read from both the sources criticizing Crowley and Haindl, and from Crowley and Haindl themselves, accuracy aside. 

 

I have studied Tarot most of my life ... but for divination, I would throw an I ching   ( especially when I thought I was in deep doo-doo   .     ) 

[Nungali]

Actually the two best and most helpful divination I have done in my life was with 'The Japanese Art of War' opening it at random. And an I ching throw I did once.

 

Major significant changing points in my life at times of  ' imminent crisis  ' ,  with wonderful  and  successful results ! 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Also, for  his take on Taoism 'generally'   ( and within the field he is talking about ) 

See Ch 6 , 7 & 8   https://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/index

' The Yellow School ' 

[mrpasserby]

On 7/19/2017 at 0:22 AM, Nungali said:

 

What is it he couldnt do  (even ) ?   O at a D  ?  

 

'The Occult' by Wilson is very dated and not that deep ... isnt it ? 

 

But why read Crowley on TTC ?   Thats like reading BSR ' transliterations '  on Rumi , when one can read Rumi directly translated. 

Hello Nugali, I am a newbie, and I was wondering what is all of this O at D, that I keep seeing in different posts?

 

The main reason that I posted you was about your signature: 

How do you know this #information, it's amazing to me, having posted in what is called Western forums for quite a while, I have found little actual up to date real world knowledge, and yet here you are just casually putting this level of information on the bottom of your posts!

#'The serpent which came forth from the earth has risen; the flame which came forth from Nun is fallen.'  

 

 

 

 

 

[Starjumper]

4 minutes ago, mrpasserby said:

Hello Nugali, I am a newbie, and I was wondering what is all of this O at D, that I keep seeing in different posts?

 

O at D stands for Orgasm at a Distance.  The practice, in which a male causes a female in his view to have an orgasm by using energy manipulation at a distance, was bragged about extensively by one of the members here who now goes by the name of Voidisyinyang.