The Ten Thousand Ways of Nei Kung

[Starjumper]

4 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

One of the early things to decide is if it should be a manual for practice or more anecdotal. 

 

I've been thinking mainly anecdotal, but I guess it could be good to include some practice methods

[Starjumper]

14 minutes ago, Jox said:

Seems that for many practitioners / schools the visualization methods are wrong. 

I practice various visualizations and from my experience it is very powerful stuff.

Also, I have been reading the book - VISUALIZATION POWER, which goes in to details of visualizations ...  

 

Visualization can work for some things but it's also the kind of thing that is more likely to cause chi problems and energy psychosis.

 

One of the problems with visualization is mistaking imagination for intent.  I think that visualization is really supposed to be the use of intent, like the most common is when someone is doing the MCO and just imagining they are doing it thoroughly when in fact they are missing some areas because they're actually using imagination and failing to use intent or feeling (for those areas).

 

For may schools visualization is absolutely wrong, and mentioning it would upset my chi kung teacher more than anything else..  Like in the nei kung systems which are so closely related to self defense.  You want the power to manifest with movement, and automatically with movement or posture, the mind is way too slow for self defense.  Also visualization completely misses a very important part of cultivation, which is using your hands as your energy tools and cultivating power in those tools.  Whether a person is a healer or Jedi, they need the chi power in their hands.

 

Another thing about visualization is it is fundamentalist in nature, telling energy where to go may not be where you need it to go for health or self improvement.  If you use movement and posture you can cultivate energy 'all over' and it automatically goes where it needs to for maximum health benefit.

 

I say it is fundamentalist because it is taking something that is natural, movement, which has many other benefits that visualization completely lacks, and instead substituting arbitrary mental exercises that only cover a fraction of the energy bases that should be covered.

 

 

[Starjumper]

Another thing about intent.  If you train by using movement and postures then your ability to use intent gains in power.

 

In our system it is perfectly fine to use intent to move energy outside your body, which is one way the Jedi stuff works, but against the rules to use it inside your body, where it could cause harm or weakness.

 

Another thing that seems certain is that super advanced masters like my teacher would meditate and use intent to get rid of sick energy he picks up from being around Bozos, but that is because they are super sensitive to their internal condition, and are using intent for a specific healing purpose in themselves,  not doing some random visualization energy exercise because they read about it in some book or heard it from some other bozos. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by Starjumper

[cold]

12 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Another thing about intent.  If you train by using movement and postures then your ability to use intent gains in power.

 

In our system it is perfectly fine to use intent to move energy outside your body, which is one way the Jedi stuff works, but against the rules to use it inside your body, where it could cause harm or weakness.

 

Another thing that seems certain is that super advanced masters like my teacher would meditate and use intent to get rid of sick energy he picks up from being around Bozos, but that is because they are super sensitive to their internal condition, and are using intent for a specific healing purpose in themselves,  not doing some random visualization energy exercise because they read about it in some book or heard it from some other bozos. 

 

"using intent to get rid of sick energy he picks up from being around Bozos,"

 

Avoidance of Bozos is a strategy too!

One I employ as often as possible.

My mother use to say an ounce of prevention

[Fate]

A lot of what your posts resonate as "real" and Truth, Starjumper, and naturally I've been considering becoming a student of yours because the flow is taking me near Ecuador. The main concern I have is, what are the implications of practicing different systems and lineages?
I have been cautious and shadowing your posts for months because of this concern, not wanting to be drawn in and feeling almost as if it as a "temptation" when I am still a beginner in another "real" lineage that goes direct to the energy itself and is a Warrior path etc.

Then I see posts like "the true path to mastery is to get to the formless, feel how all techniques do for the energy" and I once again can't notice where the flowing is taking me. I do take loyalty and lineages seriously, despite being a Gypsy of sorts up until now and trying out many different paths-I know enough to realize there's a lot of "behind the scenes" work going on when it comes to Nei Kung practice and I don't want to offend any spirits or higher level beings of my lineage by going to learn yours. Nor do I want to get ahead of myself for where I'm in my practice and show impatience in progress.

 

That's just to give some context to my question which should be a good addition to the topic at hand: What do you think of practitioners moving from system to system, or moving through systems as called on vs. the benefits of staying with the system you are learning? Especially of systems that are both rooted in the emptiness, in truth. You've answered this a little bit already with the (you can master a system of moves but this is not the same as energetic mastery itself), and also the fact that you have over a dozen or so teachers on your website.

[Starjumper]

That's kind of a tough question to answer, it depends on lots of details and variables.  Before getting into all that I would like ... I imagine you have an I Ching book, have you used it as an oracle?  when I use the I Ching as an oracle sometimes the answers are truly magical in how they focus on the question at hand.   I would like for you to toss the coins and see which chapter you get.  I'll do the same tomorrow morning and let you know which chapter I get, then we can compare notes.  Hasta mañana.

[Jox]

How would you comment on this way of moving chi?

 

 

 

[Starjumper]

5 hours ago, Jox said:

How would you comment on this way of moving chi?

 

 

 

That's perfectly fine, that's the way to move energy, with your hands.  It's the safe way, and by focussing on trying to feel the energy you train your brain and your nervous system to make it stronger.  That there is more focussed on beginner level, which is good for learning to feel the energy, and he's only using pushing and no pulling with his hands, but those exercises have the Starjumper seal of approval.

 

When I saw the cover picture for that video it reminded me of #4 in this sketch I made a long time ago:

 

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Starjumper

[Wu Ming Jen]

 

The origin of the Dao is based on a single principle and its methods are divided into three categories called primes: heavenly prime, earthly prime and humanly prime. Each of these three primes is further divided into three levels also referred to as three achievements: the initial achievement, the intermediate achievement and the high achievement. Therefore there is nine different ranks in total that are applied by the various internal alchemy schools. Consequently the internal alchemy scriptures can also be categorized according to the three primes. The heavenly prime scriptures deal with the great elixir, the earthly prime scriptures with the spirit elixir, the humanly prime with the golden elixir. In conclusion, the initial achievement could be compared to the first grade in school, the intermediate achievement to the second grade, and the high achievement to the third and final grade. Every grade requires graduation before one progresses to the next stage. All of the three primes are considered great internal alchemy paths, including all three elixirs: the great elixir, the spirit elixir and the golden elixir. The heavenly prime is about tempering and disciplining one’s nature and innate character and grasping one’s life-destiny. The earthly prime seizes the cinnabar sand and generates mercury. i.e. external alchemy, the humanly prime gets rid of the old and creates the new. 

 

The heavenly prime classics (explaining purity, stillness, refinement and temptations):
《Jin Dan Xin Fa》, 《Xing Ming Gui Zhi》, 《Tian Xian Zheng Li》, 《Xian》Fo He Zong》, 《Jin Xian Zheng Lun》《Hui Ming Jing》and so on.

The humanly Prime (clarifying the cultivation of Yin and Yang):
The 《Jin Dan Zhen Chuan》,《Xing Dao Ya Yan》,《Xuan Yao Pian》,《Qiao Yao Ge》and so on.

The earthly prime classics (concerning the refinement of lead and cinnabar):
《Huang Di Jiu Ding》,《Tai Qing Dan Jing》,《Di Yuan Zhen Jue》，《Cheng Zhi Lu 》,《Yu Zhuang Lu》 and so on.

The 《Dao De Jing》 and the《Yin Fu Jing》 belong to all three primes at the same time.
The 《Wu Zhen Pian》and the《Can Tong Qi》 also express ideas of the three primes simultaneously, with an emphasis on the humanly prime. The 《Long Hu Jing》 and the《Shi Han Ji》 also deal with the three primes, with a stress on the earthly prime.

 

The sages of the future will thus be able to get a look at these scriptures in order to attain the Dao. The accomplishing of the Dao is divided into three primes and although the original principles are consistent, many people will not make it to the end and get lost in confusion. One has to know the internal Alchemy Scriptures and Daoist books even though there is so many of them. Except for these three primes being based on the same principle of the pre-heaven Great Dao, all other methods are outside the Dao and crooked side paths. They are all delusional, side doors, and have nothing to do with the Great Dao.

 

Since I feel sorry for the younger students now, I point towards the true meaning of the scriptures by making a list as above of the Internal Alchemy classics which have been transmitted by immortals, Buddhas and patriarchs of the past. I wish that all benevolent people everywhere in the world who aspire to reach the Dao get to meet masters who transmit the truth to them. If one relies on the past to verify the present and confirms all points from beginning to end, then one will not stray onto the crooked path. But the points of reference have to be identical from top to bottom. In addition, this scripture’s aim is to make the student observe the past to examine the present and distinguish the real from the fake. Bear in mind that one’s study determines one’s destination and outcome. After having read this scripture, the true and false can be immediately discriminated and one’s direction can be set in stone. If one follows this without fail, one’s path will never become the crooked. Wicked theories are all just delusions. 

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

's only using pushing and no pulling with his hands,

 

could you say more about this? Why pulling is not advisable I mean?

[Starjumper]

11 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

could you say more about this? Why pulling is not advisable I mean?

 

Pulling is perfectly fine, it's just that most teachers don't know about it.

 

Sometimes you see pulling used as a healing technique, so it is known, but I don't recall seeing it in a chi kung video, so what I meant is it seems to not be used as a self chi kung technique.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

48 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

...    After having read this scripture, the true and false can be immediately discriminated and one’s direction can be set in stone. If one follows this without fail, one’s path will never become the crooked. Wicked theories are all just delusions. 

 

Is this scripture that you speak of available in English?

[blue eyed snake]

3 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Pulling is perfectly fine, it's just that most teachers don't know about it.

 

oh..

 

I asked because your text seemed to suggest that for beginners pulling is not advisable. But maybe I understood wrong English is not my native language. It reminded me of an exercise that I did, and that was new for me at the time. I asked teacher whether in a certain part of it I should push or pull, and he said push. 

 

But of course  I should not generalize that...

 

but I've always sort of been aware that you can push or pull with my hands... and I'm not a teacher, just a beginner.

I'll try to find out how it fits in what I'm taught, never thought about it before.

 

 

[Starjumper]

2 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

I asked because your text seemed to suggest that for beginners pulling is not advisable. But maybe I understood wrong English is not my native language. It reminded me of an exercise that I did, and that was new for me at the time. I asked teacher whether in a certain part of it I should push or pull, and he said push. 

 

I don't recall saying something like pulling is not for beginners, in my system we did some of it right from the start, and I made a mistake when commenting on that video you posted.  The first movement he does could very well incorporate pulling while he is moving his hands further apart, it depends a lot on your intent.

 

Concerning what your teacher said, I don't know, it could be he was commenting on one particular movement, and it also oculd be the intent he is using at the time.

 

A lot of movements can focus on only the pulling or only on the pushing (compressing in the video first movement) or the intent could focus on both.  I think both is best for that first movement.

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

2 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Concerning what your teacher said, I don't know, it could be he was commenting on one particular movement, and it also oculd be the intent he is using at the time.

 

yes, he was instructing me for one particular movement, and thinking about other things I learned I realize that i did learn pulling too. Although not from him but from  taji teacher. They were both students of the same teacher, my luck 

 

I'll ' think' it over

[Wu Ming Jen]

37 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Is this scripture that you speak of available in English?

Some have been translated into english, commentary can be hit or miss. I meant to write scriptures plural from the list provided to authenticate experience.

 

This is one method out of ten thousand

“Thoughts about birth-old age-illness-death;
Longevity, eternal life, immortality;
Realization of the Dao, awakening to the Dao;
the thought of unification with the higher self;
Abandon all of them!”
.
Utmost stillness is its chief aim. Return to the void and enter concentration and deep meditation. Wipe out the three heart-minds: the past, the present and the future altogether. Extinguish completely the four appearances: birth-old age- illness and death, the fate of humankind and the four miseries in human life.
After having waited for the heart-mind ‘s character to be tranquil and one’s nature being clear and cool, unrestrained, and comfortable, pure and tranquil, clear and still like the heavens, concentrate the Spirit and enter deep meditation. Be absorbed in absent-mindedness long term, not interrupted for one instant. One heart-mind replaces the ten thousand thoughts, count own breath, follow the frequency of the breath exiting and entering, one opening- one closing, one ascending- one descending,
It is exactly the mechanism of one inhale and one exhale.

The Spirit is preserved and gathered the Qi-Point,  the inhale and exhale of Qi as if preserving non-existence and safeguarding existence:

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

could you say more about this? Why pulling is not advisable I mean?

 

The thing that prompted me to say that they use pushing instead of pushing is what I saw in the video you posted, with the movement that goes from 1:35 to 1:50.  That is the only way I've ever seen it done in videos on Utube.

 

We do that with pulling rather than pushing.  You can see that with the pulling there's an interruption and bad spot when he has to turn his hands over at chin level.  When you use pulling it eliminates that and makes it into one continuous smooth movement.     Dang, giving secrets away again.  You can see how we do it with pulling if you watch my chi kung video.

[Jox]

On 24. 7. 2017 at 5:17 PM, Starjumper said:

 

Pulling is perfectly fine, it's just that most teachers don't know about it.

 

Sometimes you see pulling used as a healing technique, so it is known, but I don't recall seeing it in a chi kung video, so what I meant is it seems to not be used as a self chi kung technique.

 

Push and pull in kong jing

 

and in Soaring crane ...

 

[Starjumper]

16 hours ago, Jox said:

Push and pull in kong jing

 

and in Soaring crane ...

 

 

Thanks for those videos.  Is that you in one of them, Jox?

 

I see some definite pulling in the first one but not so sure about the second one, maybe in a few places, depending on intent.

 

Actually what I look for when I say pulling is a certain hand shape, which is kind of like the bird's beak in tai chi but not closed so much, kind of like half way between a bird's beak and a flat hand.  I don't think I've seen that in a video but if you can find one (other than my video)  I'll eat my hat  =)

 

I like the ways of moving in the first video more than the second one, and the music in the first one is nice, good for meditating.  Do you happen to know the title of that piece?

Edited July 26, 2017 by Starjumper
speeling =)

[Wu Ming Jen]

The pull is also draw if their is a substantial force directed upward you can move someone with a simple touch with fingers or the whole hand, no grabbing or plucking necessary pull or draw the force down and backwards or down left and right even spin and lead them around the room if the force changes to downward follow and expand, send out in the opposite direction with peng without mercy..The trap has been set.

[Starjumper]

6 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

The pull is also draw if their is a substantial force directed upward you can move someone with a simple touch with fingers or the whole hand, no grabbing or plucking necessary pull or draw the force down and backwards or down left and right even spin and lead them around the room if the force changes to downward follow and expand, send out in the opposite direction with peng without mercy..The trap has been set.

 

I'm having a little trouble visualizing that,

[Wu Ming Jen]

Have your wife lift her hand upwards palm down towards the ceiling with a light touch put your hand on the top of hers and draw her near you. There needs to be resistance. I forgot the foot work step back

Edited July 26, 2017 by Wu Ming Jen

[Starjumper]

That is clear, thanks. we do something similar in Yueng Chuan when someone punches high, towards your face.

[Wu Ming Jen]

I knew you had it.

[Wu Ming Jen]

In the opening of the video gathering chi from the six direction the first movement is lift with wrist( to avoid joint locks and sink to remove target) the second is push the third is called draw in with the system names I was taught.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Wu Ming Jen