Eight forces / trigrams in cultivation

[Jox]

What are the methods / ways of practicing with the eight forces / trigrams (sources)? So, the practical stuff, not the "lines" talking theory ...  

 

Two of them I can find on YT:

 

Master Sha

 

Master Chia

 

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Jox

[Jox]

Nobody knows about that topic ... hmm?

Maybe Taomeow may help here?

Edited July 22, 2017 by Jox

[morning dew]

It's quite interesting to see the second video. It reminds me of the practice of chanting various sounds to 'clean out'/'activate' chakras by vibrating them in each of their particular body areas, which I tried out many years ago. I had no idea there was a corresponding system for the trigrams.

 

Edited July 22, 2017 by morning dew

[Mudfoot]

The first one seemed to end up in a merry sing-along  

 

In the land of correllations charts, the possible methods are infinite. 

[Jox]

http://www.jindandafa.com/cdept/item.aspx?item_id=101100104

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Jox

[Jox]

Fusion meditation.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Jox

[Mudfoot]

I tend to be close minded. I like what I understand, dislike what I do not understand, and make an exception for Nei dan and dzogchen. 

 

So,  when Mantak Chia make people speed-chant the names of the trigrams as a way to connect to them, it will be no surprise for you that I think he should be hung by his balls.

[Jox]

22 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

I tend to be close minded. I like what I understand, dislike what I do not understand, and make an exception for Nei dan and dzogchen. 

 

So,  when Mantak Chia make people speed-chant the names of the trigrams as a way to connect to them, it will be no surprise for you that I think he should be hung by his balls.

 

Maybe speed chanting is his way to spin the bagua faster, I suppose ...    

 

What about: 

 

Suspension of disbelief

Students of drama understand the requirement of "suspension of disbelief" in enjoying a theater production. The actor is no longer your neighbor Mr. Brown or Mr. White, but IS Hamlet. The reality of which, assuming the production itself is professional, transports the psyche of the audience to the reality of the play Hamlet, as performed on whatever stage. Once I watched an Amadeus production in London, sitting on the front row, when Mozart walked to the edge of the stage and orated excitedly, droplets of saliva flowing and descending towards me! And I looked at my fellow audience on left and right, almost everyone was distracted, and holding up a pamphlet for protection - except one or two, who truly were into "suspension of disbelief", and continued to enjoy the play - no matter what!

The relevancy to meditation is that in meditative practices, suspension of disbelief is actually required. If you visit some parks in the morning, especially in Northern China, you may notice some zhan zhuang (standing meditation) practitioners doing it in front of a tree (usually an old and huge one, if available). They would probably tell you that they are absorbing the chi-power of the tree! You may say, are they onto some kind of cult! A famous Taoist practitioner and writer in Japan (高藤聪一郎) who first learned his stuff in Taiwan wrote in one of his popular books that he once practiced for an hour facing an electric socket and drew good energy out of it! And in the book Fusion of the Five Elements written by the famous Taoist-in-the-west Mantak Chia, Chia talked about absorbing energy from the Cosmo, including the North Star and the Big Dipper!

From a psychological perspective (in particular Jungian), our psyche does speak a different language. In order to involve our inner psyche (for enjoying a play or doing mind-body exercise to tune up one's body and mind or spirituality), symbols must be used with their meanings believed in earnest. In watching a play, a good plot and good execution are essential to bring one's psyche into action. In doing meditative practice, a mind on the zone (voluntary putting one's mind into the stage between wake-up and asleep), plus a good coach and a good practice are essential to do the job. In all cases: the most essential requirement is for the participant to consciously act with "suspension of disbelief".

Needless to say the difference between a sound mind and cases of superstition or, worse, pathological in nature is that a sound mind will discard his "suspension of disbelief" after the event. A student of drama or a practitioner of meditation won't encourage anyone punching the "killer-actor" after the show, nor imitate someone asking the Big Dipper for marital or investment advice!

 

Source of the text above.

 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Jox

[Mudfoot]

Religion requires belief. 

 

Energy based arts require stillness, a whole lot of practice,  and in some cases guidance in what you are supposed to feel and how to feel that sensation. 

 

That is how I learned it, it is how my teachers learned it.

 

While disbelief is a hindrance, belief in a specific qi is not the same as connecting to it. 

 

Visualizing a symbol is not the same as accessing the energy/process. A practitioner of taijiquan practices, s/he doesn’t look at a yin-yang symbol, nor do they chant yinyangyinyang. 

 

But I didn't see the entire clip. 

Maybe the energies the trigrams are symbols of wasn't the goal of the exercise? 

 

If the goal was just to create a spinning vortex, why not just spin instead of going through the visualisation? 

 

And again,  speed-chanting kan-kun-gen and so on? 

 

Not a practice for me,  that is for sure. 

 

 

 

 

[Mudfoot]

22 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Religion requires belief. 

 

Energy based arts require stillness, a whole lot of practice,  and in some cases guidance in what you are supposed to feel and how to feel that sensation. 

 

That is how I learned it, it is how my teachers learned it.

 

While disbelief is a hindrance, belief in a specific qi is not the same as connecting to it. 

 

Visualizing a symbol is not the same as accessing the energy/process. A practitioner of taijiquan practices, s/he doesn’t look at a yin-yang symbol, nor do they chant yinyangyinyang. 

 

But I didn't see the entire clip. 

Maybe the energies the trigrams are symbols of wasn't the goal of the exercise? 

 

If the goal was just to create a spinning vortex, why not just spin instead of going through the visualisation? 

 

And again,  speed-chanting kan-kun-gen and so on? 

 

Not a practice for me,  that is for sure. 

 

 

 

 

 

On 2017-07-28 at 4:44 PM, Mudfoot said:

I tend to be close minded. I like what I understand, dislike what I do not understand, and make an exception for Nei dan and dzogchen. 

 

So,  when Mantak Chia make people speed-chant the names of the trigrams as a way to connect to them, it will be no surprise for you that I think he should be hung by his balls.

I might be coming on too hard here. 

A more diplomatic reply would be "that is not how it is done in my tradition".

 

Lets pretend I wrote that 

[morning dew]

On 2017-7-28 at 3:44 PM, Mudfoot said:

So,  when Mantak Chia make people speed-chant the names of the trigrams as a way to connect to them, it will be no surprise for you that I think he should be hung by his balls.

 

I hate to say it, but the first 5 mins of MC's video made me cringe as much as listening to Wayne Dyer chanting 'Dao' over and over again in between the chapters of the DDJ on his audio book lol.

 

Being hung by the balls is a little bit harsh, though; I would've said hung by the ankles for a little while, maybe.  

Edited July 30, 2017 by morning dew

[Mudfoot]

3 hours ago, morning dew said:

 

I hate to say it, but the first 5 mins of MC's video made me cringe as much as listening to Wayne Dyer chanting 'Dao' over and over again in between the chapters of the DDJ on his audio book lol.

 

Being hung by the balls is a little bit harsh, though; I would've said hung by the ankles for a little while, maybe.  

Hung by the balls of his feet?

[Mudfoot]

On 2017-07-30 at 8:24 PM, Mudfoot said:

Hung by the balls of his feet?

Actually, since Mantak Chia teaches hanging weights on the balls, being hung by them might only mean more jing available... 

..

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

“The wind blows the lotus flowers, swaying them left and right.
Floating clouds and flowing water, continuously moving without interruption;
Treading steps and suspending the feet.
The Qi is circulated and one’s nature is nourished.
Slow movement and fast striking, circular forms and eight methods”. Furthermore the waist resembles dragons and snakes, coiling left and right. Crossing, linking winding and stepping, twirling naturally and at will. Qi is circulated, unimpeded and harmonious. the power emissions are fast, attacks happen in a flash of lightning, the execution of gong (skill) is light and quick as if a whirlwind.

The eight methods are:
Whirling and rotation, piercing and crossing over, winding and coiling, rolling and transforming.
Emptiness, spirit, circularity and dynamics are its gist and main aim.
In its strength are contained:
Methods of lifting, leaning, rolling of palm, elbows, chopping, cutting, bursting, flicking, pushing, pressing, pulling and subduing, embracing, propping, clashing, colliding, charging, stances and postures, transverse movements, and blocking.

Special points:

Passing through, connecting and winding movements, yin and yang mutually exchanging, the eight trigrams turn; The dragon swims in the ocean and the heaven. As if a swallow sweeps past the waters, it resembles an ape’s vertical climb. The body and the stepping are light and graceful. Its stepping method has a route, treading on the Tai Ji Yin-Yang five elements eight trigrams diagram. Its shape and pattern is elegant and floating, its appearance likened to a flying immortal.

[Jox]

Post heaven bagua arrangement is a sorcery - to change the balance or manipulate the balances of fire and water ...

 

Pre heaven bagua arrangement is alchemy - to find a balance between fire and water. To connect to forces inside. In the beginning we might think we connected to something outside of our body, but actually we connect to something inside that resonates/reflect the forces of nature outside. Small universe inside and big universe outside. To gain the forces of nature.

 

In tibetan buddhism is the same. In Varja practices to connect to the forces of nature inside, that reflect the forces of nature outside.

 

Purba practice to change the balance or manipulate them.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Jox

[Mudfoot]

Shaolin master Dejians version of Chan talk about this also. 

 

 

 

[Jox]

Now ..., here MC works with trigrams a little more in "detail".

 

1. Kan and Li trigrams from 1.37 on (last 6 minutes).

 

2. Further ... from 5.00.

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Jox

[Jox]

Ashta anga, the eight limb sutra thunder dance ... 

[rideforever]

On 22/07/2017 at 3:25 PM, Jox said:

Nobody knows about that topic ... hmm?

 

In the book Wuji and the Secret of Immortality the trigrams are laid out as a evolutionary sequence into creation, and then the author rearranges them as involutionarily sequence (back to the Source), then he relates the trigrams to the body and its functions, then he describes a practice with 5 steps to perform involution on oneself, framed within Wuji standing, in order to unite with the Source.
I believe this practice to be accurate because I myself have been taught an almost identical practice by a Zen sage that I can attest to.
So if you want to go from Trigrams to real practice I recommend that book.

[Mudfoot]

Sounds interesting, so I just ordered it. 

[vonkrankenhaus]

On 8/13/2017 at 9:27 AM, Jox said:

Post heaven bagua arrangement is a sorcery - to change the balance or manipulate the balances of fire and water ...

 

Pre heaven bagua arrangement is alchemy - to find a balance between fire and water. To connect to forces inside. In the beginning we might think we connected to something outside of our body, but actually we connect to something inside that resonates/reflect the forces of nature outside. Small universe inside and big universe outside. To gain the forces of nature.

 

Post Heaven Bagua is LoShu - the "magic square". You misunderstand its purpose. Wu Xing is retrofitted in Bagua. That's basically it.

 

Early Heaven is just a depiction of energy moving through polarities like Day/Night - the basics of YinYang and Qi.

 

This is technical stuff, not "mystical". 

But later politicized, and cultivation secret language - people try to mix and they get very confused. They go to Disneyland in their head.

 

But please look at the basic technical knowledge of this first  - it explains thermodynamics, electricity, and many things and phenomena. It shows you how battery is label backwards, and Earth magnet inside must be backwards. If you don't see this - what is anyone "cultivating"? Cultivating many assumptions and mistakes.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Mudfoot]

18 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

Early Heaven is just a depiction of energy moving through polarities like Day/Night - the basics of YinYang and Qi.

 

18 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

But please look at the basic technical knowledge of this first  - it explains thermodynamics, electricity, and many things and phenomena. It shows you how battery is label backwards, and Earth magnet inside must be backwards. 

So if I went back 3000 years, and brought a couple of magnets and some copper thread, I would get a physics lesson? 

 

Well, that sounds more relevant than the thread in the Yi Jing section where the trigrams seems to be a geography lesson. 😁 

 

I will stick to the eight natural forces as an experience in meditation though, it might not be correct but it is useful to me. 

[vonkrankenhaus]

6 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

I will stick to the eight natural forces

 

Okay, but this is a "made up" idea.

 

Bagua are not "forces". Trigram is not a "force".

 

YinYang also - not "forces".

 

They are "descriptions".

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Mudfoot]

I can live with that. 

 

Although technically trigrams are binary based symbols to which we attach meanings. 

 

Correlating them to the eight natural forces (limited to how I experience them in my practice) is using one terminology, a more descriptive terminology would correllate to how I would describe basic ideas from physics, but without having measurements that validates my experience. 

 

That is the nature of ancient descriptions, you can paste them on a lot of situations. 

 

 

[Mudfoot]

On 2018-12-26 at 12:47 PM, rideforever said:

 

In the book Wuji and the Secret of Immortality 

Not half bad, better on the subject than most I have read. 

@Jox if you do not have it, get it.

 

I must warn you though, it is only half. Last time I checked, there were eight trigrams, and only four (actually five, the authors mixes stuff up from my point of view) are presented here. The other ones are useful as well. 😁