lgbtq Is there any reason why "know the male, but keep to the female" should not be taken literally?

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

So I just realized that if you take that literally it means "have sex with guys and identify as a girl".

[Kar3n]

 

 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

47 minutes ago, Drifting_Through_Infinity said:

So I just realized that if you take that literally it means "have sex with guys and identify as a girl".

 

Sorry no, actually it doesn't.

The Chinese is:
 

知其雄，守其雌，為天下谿。

and 其, qí, is a possessive meaning his / her / its / their

 

雄 xióng, male / grand / imposing / powerful / mighty / person or state having great power and influence

 

雌 cí, female (yes, just female, or also Taiwan, but that doesn't seem relevant)

 

So as close to "literally" as possible means:

 

knowing, or being aware of (知) his or her, maleness (male aspect), “guarding” (守) his or her femaleness (female aspect). . .

Where “guarding” can also mean: to keep watch / to abide by the law / to observe.

 

The possessive, 其, means that the male and female are qualities of a person that are “active”, yang, and “passive, receptive”, yin, and are within the individual and related to conduct, not with whom you do, or do not have sex, or with what sex you identify while doing so.

 

There is a complex Chinese cosmological and social background to this, which would require to much time to elucidate.

 

The meanings and Chinese characters come from https://www.mdbg.net

 

The text from http://ctext.org, Dao De Jing Chapter 28

 

These are good resources for every Dao Bum who, like most of us, is not that fluent in Chinese.

[Marblehead]

This confusion is a result of personifying the Yin/Yang aspects of Chi.

 

 

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

I'm gonna go ahead and interpret it that way.........

[dawei]

I think this is an important concept but is likely just not a ready concept for most.

 

Forget the gender reference and consider it in other various ways... 

 

I think the problem is that Yin vs Yang , and Female vs Male has a stronghold on our mind in terms of the dual archtype...  these are just fingers pointing to the moon. 

[Kar3n]

Realizing that there is male in this womanly existence of mine was shocking!

And when I saw it!

Oh! My! Gee!

 

It is all about ourselves and no other.

 

When we realize the wholeness of ourself that's when the real work begins. 

 

 

 

[Apech]

8 hours ago, Kar3n said:

Realizing that there is male in this womanly existence of mine was shocking!

And when I saw it!

Oh! My! Gee!

 

It is all about ourselves and no other.

 

When we realize the wholeness of ourself that's when the real work begins. 

 

 

 

 

Butch Kar3n

[blue eyed snake]

8 hours ago, Kar3n said:

Realizing that there is male in this womanly existence of mine was shocking!

And when I saw it!

Oh! My! Gee!

 

you serious about that ??

 

I've always known that, but then, had I been a child now, I might have been dubbed as a 'gender-idunnowhat'

we just have to work out that duality in a body that has female or male status.

 

 

[Apech]

Western culture seems to have got itself into an unholy mess over the gender issue.  People on the left say that gender and gender expression are not determined by biological sex differences.  In other words being born with a penis does not make you a man and being born with a vagina does not make you a woman.  Socially this is potentially very confusing.  People these days do not want to be limited by these types of definitions but pursue a kind of individual freedom beyond the social conventions - which is in a way fair enough.  I want individuals to be free.  And I remember when I was younger how the very much more defined social conventions were quite oppressive.

 

So now people worry about which toilets transgender people should go to and give the likes of Caitlin Jenner awards for bravery - for cross dressing basically.  She still looks like a man in drag lets be honest - but best of luck to her - but why should we make a fuss?

 

There is, we have to accept, a fundamental difference between men and women which is evidenced by the type of gametes they produce - eggs or sperm.  If you produce eggs you are female (or if your body is geared up to do so even if it has stopped or is malfunctioning) - same for men and sperm.  But what we need to remember is that these are specialisms produced by nature to allow reproduction through meiosis - that is sexual reproduction rather than just mitosis (duplication) - and the reason this occurs is evolutionary.  It is favourable evolutionarily to reproduce sexually because of the variation in offspring.  So the male female difference is fundamental.  However it is also true that this favouring variety of expression will have the consequence that there is a wide distribution in male and female characteristics - e.g. some men who display what are normally considered female traits and visa versa.  This is because the actual range of expression in men and women are broad curves which overlap rather than being narrow and completely separate curves.  So for instance some women may be physically stronger than some men - although statistically it would b the other way round consistently.

 

On an individual basis though there is something else happening.  Because all sex difference is a product of variety and specialism you could argue that at a cellular level the basic condition of the cell is neutral.  In fact each cell is the symbiotic product of the relationship between two bacteria - one of which forms the mitochondrial energy system (female) and the other forms the nucleus containing the genetic code for replication (male).  But this is in one cell so you could argue that every cell is bi-sexual (!) and that to be a whole person you have to integrate both male and female - in other words there is a inner sexual dynamic in each cell and thus in your whole being and your outer sexual relations are just projections of this.  Your lover/consort/ wife/husband resonates closely with your own inner male or female - and this would work in all types of relationships - for instance gay men and women.  Each individual in relation to other individual knowing the male but keeping to the female.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2017 by Apech

[Kar3n]

4 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

you serious about that ??

 

I've always known that, but then, had I been a child now, I might have been dubbed as a 'gender-idunnowhat'

we just have to work out that duality in a body that has female or male status.

 

 

I am serious, very much so. My seeing and knowing my maleness has nothing to do with my sexuality.i am still a girly girl who who doesn't mind getting her hands dirty who  loves campfires and beer, and make-up and fingernail polish and good smelling lotion, but I know my "man" side.

 

In the end, there  is no duality. Know, let go, be.

 

It's like being the coin and thinking you're only heads and then find out you are tails too.

 

It's fascinating and wonderful, and  encompassing.

[Taomeow]

For purposes of taoist dual cultivation, gender roles are reversed -- the woman expresses yang (knows the male), the man expresses yin (keeps the female).  Educating a woman how to express her male aspect and educating a man how to express his female aspect respectively reach much farther than the bedchamber, however (though there it would be a good start.) 

 

Since Laozi was talking to the man -- all of TTC can be seen as an attempt to educate the active/ruling/outwardly-expressed aspect of the society which was represented exclusively by the male gender in his time, what he meant was, don't lose sight of the unexpressed/ruled or you'll get us all in trouble.  Society didn't listen, and we're in trouble.  Women express maleness by assuming roles of skewed males, not of balanced males who "keep the female."  E.g. female warmonger politicians are not expressing maleness, they are expressing maleness that "does not keep the female," extreme/skewed yang, and their gender is therefore inconsequential.  (Wish all female/feminist Hillary supporters saw and understood that, but alas, they don't.)      

[idquest]

"know the male, but keep to the female"

 

On the basic level this is just an instruction on when heterosexual couples should have sex: when a female is ovulating. This is a time when a female is playful and instinctively wants sex. A male should pick up the subtle vibes from the female and follow. Just yesterday I watched a documentary about lions - female lionesses there are not very subtle, in fact they are quite demanding!

[Taoist Texts]

On 7/23/2017 at 5:37 AM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

Sorry no, actually it doesn't. The Chinese is: 知其雄，守其雌，為天下谿。 ...There is a complex Chinese cosmological and social background to this, which would require to much time to elucidate.

That is correct. A glimpse into the DDJ's meaning is provided by a passage in 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_the_Grand_Historian

 

夫秦齐雄雌之国，秦强则齐弱矣，此势不两雄。今臣窃闻秦遣使车十乘载黄金百镒以迎孟尝君。孟尝君不西则已，西入相秦则天下归之，秦为雄而齐为雌，雌则临淄、即墨危矣。

 

Qin and Qi are two kingdoms that are like male and female to each other, if Qin is strong then Qi will be weak, there can not be two males in this relationship, ...Qin is male, Qi is female that is - danger.

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Stosh]

Yes,  there's a reason why it should not be taken literally , its bad, insulting, stereotyping.

Recognize , that if was taken literally , being very feminine , would mean that you were ...stupid lazy ugly useless greedy fat weak sick fickle confused,,  etc and so forth. 

I had a mother, sisters, nieces , aunts , female friends and mates  , and frankly , it's offensive to me, on their behalf ,

and I certainly don't think the description fits women any more than some men I know , also occasionally being, stupid lazy ugly useless and so forth. 

And if the sheer insult of it isnt enough,

 then you have the paradox that breast feeding, which is generating and transferring energies from a mother to a child would be 'masculine'. Or you would have to say that a man working to support his nursing wife was being 'feminine'. So its both insulting and stupid. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Stosh

[Hancock]

Wow, cool thread

[Hancock]

This begs the question, is cultivation based on biology or idea of self or both. An is it different for gays, transgender, hetero, an what bout intersex?

 

[Kar3n]

3 minutes ago, Hancock said:

This begs the question, is cultivation based on biology or idea of self or both. An is it different for gays, transgender, hetero, an what bout intersex?

 

The passage the OP is referring to is about the internal polarity that is inherent in everyone. It is not based on sexual orientation or gender identity. Instead of female or male, think yin and yang and how they compliment each other.

[Wu Ming Jen]

I posted this in another thread but it might be useful to those who do not understand the symbolism of internal alchemy words and there meaning.

 

Dragon and Tiger joining their essences in the alchemical tripod. 
The dragon (a symbol of the Yang, male principle) is mounted by a girl (True Yin within Yang), and vice versa the tiger (a symbol of the Yin, female principle) is mounted by a boy (True Yang within Yin).

 

[Hancock]

2 hours ago, Kar3n said:

The passage the OP is referring to is about the internal polarity that is inherent in everyone. It is not based on sexual orientation or gender identity. Instead of female or male, think yin and yang and how they compliment each other.

Cool. 

 

Does cultivation requirements change depending on the biology, women, men, intersex, or surgically trans individuals or if one identifies as other than the born biology? I do know it affects energy levels, but does it change how a person needs to cultivate? Or is cultivation universal, with no distinction between the sexes? Most of what I read is geared to men, so I'm curious as to if it's the same for intersex or woman as it is for males, an also if sexual identity is a factor or not?

 

I'm familiar with symbology an the OP post, if they have issue with my question let me know but instead of starting a new thread, I figured since its related I would ask it here. Because the answers already given enough help somewhat, an the last post before me is August 10th. Again if I'm in violation of some sort let me know but I'm hoping you good people of albums  can help me figure it out.

[blue eyed snake]

Cultivation for women is indeed a bit different from men. Although the first steps are the same, after that the roads diverge somewhat. There are books about female cultivation.

 

of old, it were those shamans that had found a real balance between the male and the female that were the most powerful. 

[gj551]

On 7/23/2017 at 3:31 AM, Drifting_Through_Infinity said:

So I just realized that if you take that literally it means "have sex with guys and identify as a girl".

no it doesnt

 

i read it as "have guy friends but stick to your girlfriend (in the end)" (assuming the reader is male). sorry for being rude, but in my estimation the whole point of daoist yoga is about not having intercourse

Edited November 9, 2017 by gj551

[gj551]

On 9/3/2017 at 0:26 AM, Hancock said:

surgically trans individuals

uhh, i dont dare to disclose it to such a person, but.. doesnt the removal of the testicles "kill" your ability to practise alchemy?

 

i mean, fire and water have to mingle with each other, and water is the kidneys (which in turn "are" the (external) testicles)

Edited November 10, 2017 by gj551