Meditation Question

[turtlehermit]

Hi everyone,

I would greatly appreciate any help with this question on Taoist meditation. In my studies I've noticed that the older texts suggest joining the mind and breath at the lower dantian to build the elixir, but in reading some later texts such as The Secret Of The Golden Flower, and Taoist Yoga, they focus more on the third eye and add more complicated techniques such as rolling the eyes. Some of this seems contradictory and unnecessary, although I understand the elixir moves upwards in the body after being vitalized in the dantian. Also, in Zen for instance, they do not stress any complicated techniques. I've heard focusing on the third eye will just give you a headache and focusing on the lower dantian is the classic method. I would be very grateful if you could give me your opinion on this topic. I understand there is a lot of information out there and it takes time to sift through to the essence. Thanks so much!

[Marblehead]

Hello turtlehermit, and welcome.

 

Your membership is approved and we're happy you found your way to us. We look forward to accompanying you on some of the way that you still have to go.

 

Please take the time to read the post pinned at the top of this Welcome page and take a look at the forum terms and rules. This covers all you need to know when getting started.

 

For the first week you will be restricted to ten posts per day but after that you can post as much as you like. Also, until you’ve posted fifteen times in the forums, you’ll be a “Junior Bum” with somewhat restricted access and will be allowed only two private messages per day.

 

Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you,

 

Marblehead and the TDB team

 

 

Hi turtle,

 

I'm an empty-minded meditation guy and we don't concentrate on anything during meditation.  But there are many here who could speak to your questions.

 

You are welcome to jump right in ongoing discussions, revive an older thread, start a new thread of your own, or start a discussion in the "Newcomer Corner" sub-forms to expand on your introduction or ask general questions to help you get started.

 

May you enjoy your time here.

 

Marblehead

[roger]

On July 28, 2017 at 9:00 PM, turtlehermit said:

Hi everyone,

I would greatly appreciate any help with this question on Taoist meditation. In my studies I've noticed that the older texts suggest joining the mind and breath at the lower dantian to build the elixir, but in reading some later texts such as The Secret Of The Golden Flower, and Taoist Yoga, they focus more on the third eye and add more complicated techniques such as rolling the eyes. Some of this seems contradictory and unnecessary, although I understand the elixir moves upwards in the body after being vitalized in the dantian. Also, in Zen for instance, they do not stress any complicated techniques. I've heard focusing on the third eye will just give you a headache and focusing on the lower dantian is the classic method. I would be very grateful if you could give me your opinion on this topic. I understand there is a lot of information out there and it takes time to sift through to the essence. Thanks so much!

 

While I can't speak directly to your question because I'm not learned in the subject, I can give you some pointers in a general and universal sense.

 

Follow your heart and do what gives you peace and happiness. Even if the masters and experts say one thing, YOU are still your own authority and teacher. To put it simply, just do what you want to do.

 

Experiment. Find out what works for you. Don't be afraid to try different things. In time you'll probably find your way, through trying different techniques.

 

No one else can tell you what's right for you. But I can tell you to do what really makes you happy. If that happens to be the techniques taught by the masters, fine. If not, don't sacrifice your joy just because some master tells you what he thinks you should do.

 

I hope this helps.

[Spotless]

It is wise to look at what you are looking at - oddly the classic way is the fastest if you intend to do what is considered regular frequent practice. It appears to be the slowest but most conservative and sure footed - it is easily the fastest - it is the Turtles way. It is not linear, you transcend "there".

 

The slowest way is definitely the engineers way - it is linear and is liberal and experiemental - super fun and jazzy and filled with immediate experiences - it is the Rabbits way - and rarely gets anyone "there" - but they often become popular authors and seminar leaders.

 

Both ways are written in ancient texts -  many techniques are for those that have lost all hope of gaining themselves and many techniques are for those that were talked out of the very real possibility of gaining themselves - relegating it to near fiction or at least a thousand lifetimes before it is even possible.

 

If you are new to this practice - why not start with the classic lower dan Tien work and find your certainty there - if you are in practice frequently wonders will occur in only a few years.

 

For some incredible fast cool experiences and perhaps a psychotic episode or two - go for fast breathing techniques and spinal breathing - it might make you happy until you are not or no longer care.

 

Seriously but in lightness as well - considering what you are considering is very wise - a solid base will make for a very fine journey.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jeff]

On 7/28/2017 at 8:00 PM, turtlehermit said:

Hi everyone,

I would greatly appreciate any help with this question on Taoist meditation. In my studies I've noticed that the older texts suggest joining the mind and breath at the lower dantian to build the elixir, but in reading some later texts such as The Secret Of The Golden Flower, and Taoist Yoga, they focus more on the third eye and add more complicated techniques such as rolling the eyes. Some of this seems contradictory and unnecessary, although I understand the elixir moves upwards in the body after being vitalized in the dantian. Also, in Zen for instance, they do not stress any complicated techniques. I've heard focusing on the third eye will just give you a headache and focusing on the lower dantian is the classic method. I would be very grateful if you could give me your opinion on this topic. I understand there is a lot of information out there and it takes time to sift through to the essence. Thanks so much!

 

Your middle dantien is open and flowing. Hence, you have reached the point where energy will follow your attention (or flow to it).  But, any single location can create an energy buildup that could cause some of the headache stuff that you mention. I would suggest that consider some sort of full body energy movement technique. Something like a micro cosmic orbit, or possibly full body sensing. As you start to open a little more from your current state, you are going to start feeling energy more from other people and your environment. At that level, energy buildups can be a little more challenging.

[phil]

52 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

 As you start to open a little more from your current state, you are going to start feeling energy more from other people and your environment. At that level, energy buildups can be a little more challenging.

Jeff, do you have any tips how to deal with this? Currently I am dealing with this and it's not that enjoyable for me atm

[Jeff]

33 minutes ago, phil48 said:

Jeff, do you have any tips how to deal with this? Currently I am dealing with this and it's not that enjoyable for me atm

 

Ok if I remotely check on you so I can be more specific to your situation? Also, respond here or privately?

[Jetsun]

I would start by using the breath as the object, it is conceptual enough to give you a focus so your mind has something to train itself to, but not concrete enough to lead to any fixation.

 

I wouldn't make it too complicated just use the breath to create a space where you can see the mind weave its tricks without you acting out its impulses

 

After a while of doing that you can become aware of the gaps and pauses in between the breath, then everything can start to unravel and all the secrets reveal themselves.

 

After that you can just rest in the space or rather rest as the space, which is basically the ultimate meditation

[Apech]

On 7/29/2017 at 2:00 AM, turtlehermit said:

Hi everyone,

I would greatly appreciate any help with this question on Taoist meditation. In my studies I've noticed that the older texts suggest joining the mind and breath at the lower dantian to build the elixir, but in reading some later texts such as The Secret Of The Golden Flower, and Taoist Yoga, they focus more on the third eye and add more complicated techniques such as rolling the eyes. Some of this seems contradictory and unnecessary, although I understand the elixir moves upwards in the body after being vitalized in the dantian. Also, in Zen for instance, they do not stress any complicated techniques. I've heard focusing on the third eye will just give you a headache and focusing on the lower dantian is the classic method. I would be very grateful if you could give me your opinion on this topic. I understand there is a lot of information out there and it takes time to sift through to the essence. Thanks so much!

 

Actually unless you are advanced you need to lay the foundations before even thinking about the elixir.  My advice, for what it is worth, is to not do anything forced, but just gently watching the in-out natural breathing, learning to do deep relaxation, and gently focusing on the LDT in a light hearted way without expectations (combined with healthy diet and regular exercise) is the way to go.

 

Better still find a competent teacher.

 

As to the books you mention I would read as much around the subject as you can - with a healthy scepticism as there are some doubtful books out there and also quite a lot is lost in translation.  You could try some of the exercises recommended but without force or expectation just to see what works for you.  Cultivation is a long term task - 'the work' can't and should not be hurried.  So try to slowly build confidence to lay a strong foundation for future success.

 

 

[turtlehermit]

15 hours ago, Spotless said:

It is wise to look at what you are looking at - oddly the classic way is the fastest if you intend to do what is considered regular frequent practice. It appears to be the slowest but most conservative and sure footed - it is easily the fastest - it is the Turtles way. It is not linear, you transcend "there".

 

The slowest way is definitely the engineers way - it is linear and is liberal and experiemental - super fun and jazzy and filled with immediate experiences - it is the Rabbits way - and rarely gets anyone "there" - but they often become popular authors and seminar leaders.

 

Both ways are written in ancient texts -  many techniques are for those that have lost all hope of gaining themselves and many techniques are for those that were talked out of the very real possibility of gaining themselves - relegating it to near fiction or at least a thousand lifetimes before it is even possible.

 

If you are new to this practice - why not start with the classic lower dan Tien work and find your certainty there - if you are in practice frequently wonders will occur in only a few years.

 

For some incredible fast cool experiences and perhaps a psychotic episode or two - go for fast breathing techniques and spinal breathing - it might make you happy until you are not or no longer care.

 

Seriously but in lightness as well - considering what you are considering is very wise - a solid base will make for a very fine journey.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for all the responses! They were very helpful. To clarify on the top response, the lower dan tien way is the classic way of taoist meditation? This seems like the more simple method that makes the most sense to me. Does this method imply that focusing on the lower dan tien builds vitality and then naturally rises up through the body without any effort? The later texts add more techniques like focusing on the third eye, rolling the eyes, and the microcosmic orbit. Would it be right to say that by starting in the lower dan tien, eventually the breath and energy circulate through the body naturally? As opposed to using effort to move the chi? This would explain zen meditation, and empty minded meditation, as the circulation would be natural without effort. I understand both techniques are useful, but would appreciate any further verification on the classic way, vs. the way of more complicated techniques in books such as Toaist Yoga, and The Secret Of The Golden Flower. Thanks so much!

[thelerner]

The other guys are more experienced but I see it this way. 

 

Often (hard to say all) meditation begins and ends at the lower dantien.  It's.. the stabilizer.  Many Daoist schools laud the micro-cosmic orbit, though some let it happen by itself, others have visualizations and movement to get it flowing.

 

From my experience what many consider the MCO is not the full expression, instead its a sensation mantra, whereas the 'Real' thing is closer to a controlled circulating kundalini- very powerful phenomena.  With Daoism taking the power circularly around, whereas Kundalini yoga may take it straight up. 

 

Again since generally you start and end at the lower dan tien that's not a bad place to focus on in early training,  that and breath.  Course, different practices different focuses. 

 

 

Addon> In the beginning, look around, try different things, see what you connect with.  Ultimately you have to marry a practice in order to go deep.  Marry one, flirt with others.. occasionally. 

[Spotless]

On 7/30/2017 at 4:18 PM, turtlehermit said:

Thanks for all the responses! They were very helpful. To clarify on the top response, the lower dan tien way is the classic way of taoist meditation? This seems like the more simple method that makes the most sense to me. Does this method imply that focusing on the lower dan tien builds vitality and then naturally rises up through the body without any effort? The later texts add more techniques like focusing on the third eye, rolling the eyes, and the microcosmic orbit. Would it be right to say that by starting in the lower dan tien, eventually the breath and energy circulate through the body naturally? As opposed to using effort to move the chi? This would explain zen meditation, and empty minded meditation, as the circulation would be natural without effort. I understand both techniques are useful, but would appreciate any further verification on the classic way, vs. the way of more complicated techniques in books such as Toaist Yoga, and The Secret Of The Golden Flower. Thanks so much!

I started with Raja Yoga over 40 years ago and it was about 90% meditation, 10% postures and all about lifestyle. Meditation was feom the center of the head, looking forward, eyes closed. Lotus, breath into the abdomen. I achieved sustained levels without much playing around with engineering my energy. Great care was taken not to push ahead of the necessary patience.

 

Nearly 40 years later I began practicing Qi Gong - the attention is in the lower dan Tien - with zero visualization of energy and no work what so ever on the MCO - just breath into the lower dan Tien and attention there (and frequent practice under the guidance of a very competent grand master).

 

With just this everything will unfold. It is astonishing.

 

It was incredible with Yoga - and the way of Yoga has never left me - it is essentially the same as the Daoist Way (though some may wish to argue that and I am in no position to dispute with them - I follow no "Way" - but it became me long ago however poorly I slammed about.

 

With nothing more than frequent diligent practice all the channels and the MCO and the Dan Tiens and many more things will unfold beyond words. If you happen to Awaken and Be in strong embodiment the LDT will be your center like a rock and a mountain base. The energy levels are far beyond belief. 

 

Yes to your question : this does imply focusing on the lower dan Tien builds and then naturally rises

 

my teacher speaks no English and I speak no Chinese - he taught me the fine points of posture (very important) and I practiced 4-6 days a week with him. The only internal instruction was to breath into the LTD and to keep my attention in the LTD. Then a few years into it he really stressed that I keep my attention in the LTD - be in it - so finally that is what I did. 

 

In both of my main practices very little "doing" was taught or done - the more I gained experience even less "doing" was happening but much more was happening - both practices were incredible. Qi Gong has been astounding and it continues to unfold in massive leaps every week or so - for years now - I can no longer approximate words for what is taking place.

 

The patience is needed and the bodies need time to grow and adjust - all this while life is taking place and hormones run rampant and DNA plots its rails and pecking order. Mind is not needed but here and there - and if you (when) you Awaken to Presence you will see much that held you was invested in Mind - gamed in mind - repeated endlessly in mind. 

 

Simple Awareness, breath and a centering is all that is needed to unforld and gain all. Good guidance will help and incorporating it into the way of your life is of the utmost importance. It is not entering into a "perfect" life - but it is the perfect life in all its sputters and starts and bending and pressure.

 

Mind will label everything and hinder everything it labels - but it is not an enemy - it is just a cabdriver that easily listens to itself rather than the one paying the tab - it must serve the master and otherwise stop babbling.

 

Awakening is far more like a massive instinctual calmness - a full physical, emotional and spiritual explosion of calm grounded Presence. It is very much removed from "doing" so a "doing" practice will bring a certain sense of missing inertia in Awakening experiences and in actual Awakening if that happens (it is less likely that it will).

 

Mind conceptualizes to a much too high pitched picture of perfection - its too clean - antiseptic. It wants cupcake recipes going from point A to point B. It likes mixers and grinders and spices and sugar - it does not like space and quiet and thounderous tasteless flavor.  

 

 

[Marblehead]

Hi Turtle,

 

I see some very good responses here.  Has your question been answered yet?

 

[turtlehermit]

12 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Hi Turtle,

 

I see some very good responses here.  Has your question been answered yet?

 

Yes, these responses are very helpful and appreciated. I think my question will take time to be fully answered, and i'm grateful for all the help!

Would anyone else care to elaborate on this second question?

On 7/30/2017 at 7:18 PM, turtlehermit said:

Thanks for all the responses! They were very helpful. To clarify on the top response, the lower dan tien way is the classic way of taoist meditation? This seems like the more simple method that makes the most sense to me. Does this method imply that focusing on the lower dan tien builds vitality and then naturally rises up through the body without any effort? The later texts add more techniques like focusing on the third eye, rolling the eyes, and the microcosmic orbit. Would it be right to say that by starting in the lower dan tien, eventually the breath and energy circulate through the body naturally? As opposed to using effort to move the chi? This would explain zen meditation, and empty minded meditation, as the circulation would be natural without effort. I understand both techniques are useful, but would appreciate any further verification on the classic way, vs. the way of more complicated techniques in books such as Toaist Yoga, and The Secret Of The Golden Flower. Thanks so much!

 

[Hancock]

 To clarify on the top response, the lower dan tien way is the classic way of taoist meditation?

It is a way to begin deliberately generating internal energy for healing or martial arts or just general maintenance purposes of the body, also spiritual development as well as a way to develop the power to deal with the nonphysical beings who cause mischief at times in our world. 

 

Does this method imply that focusing on the lower dan tien builds vitality and then naturally rises up through the body without any effort?

No, it takes effort and discipline to sit there and focus and allow the chi to flow, direct it, store it, to sense it. No freebie here. It's easier if u sense your lower dantian or LDT then do abdominal breathing til you begin to feel this good sensation, almost like it flows in on the breathe. Then try to allow it to go to your LDT and merge with it. there's a feeling of it blending that's difficult to describe, but you'll know it when you feel it.

 

The later texts add more techniques like focusing on the third eye, rolling the eyes, and the microcosmic orbit. Would it be right to say that by starting in the lower dan tien, eventually the breath and energy circulate through the body naturally?

 

No, it only happens after you deliberately develop chi an deliberately circulate the chi. There's different internal exercises and even external exercises for this. 

Spend a session developing LDT up to 36 breathes, then try this to rapidly develop. tongue to palate of your mouth, breathe thru nose, while sitting relaxed, deliberately sense the chi in your LDT an feel/will it to compress into a very small sphere, next step is to exhale while you send it down to the area between your genitals and anus called the perenium. when it hits the right position, it'll shoot up your spine an top of your head, then you'll feel something drip in the back of your mouth that tastes sweet but kinda like the taste in the air after an electrical storm. Let it drip an let it relax down to your LDT then compress it into a sphere there again by directing it with your feeling/sensing capabilities.

it'll open your pathways the first couple times, an help you developing.

 

Later on you can move this developed chi into filling up your body allthruout, then storing it inside different parts of your body, organs, bones, skin, etc.

 

At least this is the Turtle/Tiger style.

 

 

As opposed to using effort to move the chi?

There's a sense/feeling to dealing with chi, u can sense it and when you feel it you can kind of will it to move that way.

 

 

 

This would explain zen meditation, and empty minded meditation, as the circulation would be natural without effort.

 

these are built on maintaining free chi pathways and allowing the chi to flow naturally so as to allow one to be what we are.with little deviation from our true nature. 

Circulation is semi-natural, except thru life people develop blockages an improper flows of chi. That exercise I gave before will help clear the chi pathways each time you do it.

Zen is about maintaining a stillpoint inside yourself, so as to build your spiritual development on. Cultivating chi and developing a connection to the essence, that pervades the entire being and allows one to mind of return to a true way of being til their form dissipates an they are nonphysical beings flowing and experiencing the universe in a greater way than most people are capable of.  

It sounds hoaky til you develop and it happens. You'll gain expanded perceptions and expanded capacity to experience and act in ways that are limited by society and people simply not knowing we can do, or taking the time to develop our capacity for.

 

 

 

I understand both techniques are useful, but would appreciate any further verification on the classic way, vs. the way of more complicated techniques in books such as Toaist Yoga, and The Secret Of The Golden Flower. Thanks so much!

 

 Taoist Yoga is chi development indirectly with the body then circulating it through the bodywork cause changes in it that help return it to a powerful state of being for spiritual, martial, everyday health development. 

 

Secret of the Golden Flower is using internal things to make your body act like a fuel cell, developing the capacity to generate energy and self sustaining with internal exercises by using and fertilizing the fluids in your body, saliva = jade elixir, etc.

 

[Hancock]

What I typed is only my experiences and point of view from my learning. It's not law nor absolute or the only way of doing things. 

 

Also cause we mentally understand something doesn't always make us have power to do it, this stuff isn't mental, it's bout utilizing the natural forces outside an inside ourselves to harmonise an develop. There's practical formulas that yield practical results. 

 

But unless you do it, then you might not get the benefits of it. Unless you luck out an find a person who bestows you with their years of cultivation an clears your chi pathways, which can happen but is usually done in some lineages to the successor of the head of that particular way of doing things.

 

Alternatively for quick gains in chi sensing, get a free reiki attunement. It helps connect you to a type of heavenly chi that will help clear chi pathways initially. Then you can get used to working with a type of chi, before cultivating. 

Forewarning chi is like water, there's lots of types. But some people with limited sensing depth say that it's all the same thing, blanketing it all together, I suggest not making that mistake.

In fact difference between yang and yin chi is this, yang is like the radiating heat from our body, which is a type of chi.

Yin is like that cool, smooth sensation when you take your bare feet to the ground outside on the grass.

There's basic and as you develop, practical differences.

 

Anyhow lots of people here know more than I do, an can warn you of improperly developing an what not. 

 

Hope it helped, I did what I could.

[Aeran]

The conclusion I've reached over the last few years is that the best way to avoid these apparent contradictions from different texts is to seek out a live teacher who can do what you want to be able to do and has achieved what you want to achieve, and have them teach you the way they achieved it.

[Hancock]

On 8/3/2017 at 0:38 AM, Aeran said:

The conclusion I've reached over the last few years is that the best way to avoid these apparent contradictions from different texts is to seek out a live teacher who can do what you want to be able to do and has achieved what you want to achieve, and have them teach you the way they achieved it.

Aeran is right you'll find lots of contracting things, I've found that these contradictions are resolved as you begin developing experience and practice. They are only contradictory in the mind but when actually utilised, will resolve themselves pretty quickly.

Think in terms of Practicality when cultivating an doing exercises of these types, it'll help.

 

Avoid thinking you understand it completely until you've obtained some experience with it. There is what I call the philosopher's trap, they think they are thinking, an do very little else because they're reflecting only on their ideas of the world an perception of it. But it doesn't affect much other than their self image.

Whereas being practical an testing out what we know, taking the chance is like a launch pad that brings us into new experiences and levels of armchair philosophy. Deep thinking has its place, but it's useless without action. Took years of experience to understand that, time I'm hoping you'll save by understanding that knowledge and action go hand in hand.

 

So for faster gains regardless of your goals, reiki at least level one. The activation exercise of storing chi in Lower DanTian. Personally I've found it works best if I go without masturbating or having sex for 4 days at a time. Then do circulation exercise of compression, then sending it down to the perenium to spark the microcosmic orbit (as I was taught it).

Then golden flower meditation. 

 

These are the only physical parts I recommend in the picture I uploaded. Those exercises help unblock an circulate thru the joints the chi you've developed. They are extremely basic, but affective.

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Hancock

[Spotless]

At this point you may have reached beyond many of the limiting factors xperienced in the beginning levels of meditation. Many of the engineering techniques involved in the various schools are little more than ways and means to get the student "off the addiction" to the frequencies they are accustom to and in trance in and asleep in - the karma which is the sum total of the frequencies they hold themselves in.

 

The various techniques give the student something to "do" and yet it is also in a sense ebbing away at the fixed frequencies / held patterns - and ones mind is occupied in a way that is generally out of the noise it is normally absorbed in.

 

Once the meditators gets past this - generally several years - Being in meditation becomes more and more of the practice and "doing" ceases at some point altogether.

 

It takes more or less time for different people to fully be convinced by experience of the meditation that something is indeed happening.

Some have become convinced enough to have the faith to give it full due diligence simply by the basic processes - others even if fairly convinced need more ornate practices even if it means a more shallow or dangerous route - they must have a recipe and results fairly quickly and without as much dedication.

 

Those going the "faster route" of engineering often become sidelined for the rest of their lives - some because they are infatuated with their new abilities (siddhis) and many because they toast themselves on some level and back off entirely. Some become big fans of engineering and continue the effort as teachers.

 

none of this is wrong or right - but as one arrives at real meditation in the latter stages two things are common:

Some go deep and in no effort

Some go trance and not much occurs

 

The engineering group is accustom to action so trancing out is a way of rising out of "doing" into non-doing - but unfortunately it is little more than sleeping. Years can go by in this practice and the meditator thinks they are in a relatively deep meditation practice whereas they are really not in meditation - they are sitting in trance (which most people do on a long bus ride).

 

Sitting in trance is perhaps better than a sharp stick in the eye - way better in fact - but nothing by comparison to deep meditation out of trance in embodiment.

 

In the latter stages of meditation the main energy channels have begun to open up to the point of a generalized sense of their existence and it is easier and easier to simply be in the increasingly stronger fields and in the enhancement of overall awareness both in meditation and in living in general.

 

It is in this stage that living in the Way becomes increasingly easier and shedding of held frequency takes place more and more often. A general lightness then permeates ones life. Less and less doing - more happening - manifestation simply falls into place more and more.

 

This will take place for often many years - people tend to go in and out of the practice often wondering why they ever quit when they return to it - but the depth quickly comes back and often with more grace. The gentle ebbing of held frequency has become a habit - in the sense that it became obvious that willfulness was a holding pattern but it is hard sometimes not to grab hold full tilt and then crash from it somehow - often years later.

 

In far more advanced general states - actually quite rare - so called subtle energies are no longer subtle. They become the more considerable "body" and the so called "physical body" becomes by far the lesser body. One is IN a state of meditation at this point nearly all the time if not all the time.

 

If one looks at a tree - it could be that a tree really concentrates on its leaves for a time - then later on branch placement for optimal exposure - then branch placement for optimal strength And vitality.

It may decide to work on root depth and then root expansion outward. 

 

At the same time another tree may just radiate in its tree essence and find its best vitality in no effort but rather in utter abandonment to its Being and the great grounding in both the earth and heavens.

 

In the case of the first tree - it may injure itself when spreading its branches for optimal exposure - leaving itself vulnerable to winds.

It may wither and die from expanding its roots without going deep in a drought. In specializing and engineering its growth it isolates various parts from the whole and becomes vulnerable to its innocent play much like the chemists that play with our environment and often disrupt whole ecosystems.

 

The most basic systems do not interrupt and specialize and they lead to a natural balanced unfolding. In that unfolding one will come to see many things - understand many things and find enegineering that is natural in the ever moving scaffolding of Presence. Some of that "engineering" may be to move to patience when trudging through thick energies. To smile when faced with scowls.

 

 

 

 

[CedarTree]

On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 6:00 PM, turtlehermit said:

Hi everyone,

I would greatly appreciate any help with this question on Taoist meditation. In my studies I've noticed that the older texts suggest joining the mind and breath at the lower dantian to build the elixir, but in reading some later texts such as The Secret Of The Golden Flower, and Taoist Yoga, they focus more on the third eye and add more complicated techniques such as rolling the eyes. Some of this seems contradictory and unnecessary, although I understand the elixir moves upwards in the body after being vitalized in the dantian. Also, in Zen for instance, they do not stress any complicated techniques. I've heard focusing on the third eye will just give you a headache and focusing on the lower dantian is the classic method. I would be very grateful if you could give me your opinion on this topic. I understand there is a lot of information out there and it takes time to sift through to the essence. Thanks so much!

 

I will speak from a Theravada/Zen perspective.

 

Joining the breath with your mind sounds to a very classic intermediate to advanced technique that seems to happen naturally in Anapanasati.

 

Although I am not qualified to give you advice past this I would think the references to "Third Eye" is relating to beginning to explore the deeper Jhana's and or Awareness.

 

I will echo what some of the fellow Buddhists have mentioned here which is to consult a qualified meditation specialist   Traditional schools such as Theravada, Tibetan, & Zen are probably your best but you will have to learn the language they speak in or you may not be able to accurately describe yourself or have them accurately guide you.