Zen Stories - Daowu Won't Say

[Stonehouse]

The Case

Priest Jianyuan of Tan once accompanied his teacher, Daowu, on a condolence call to a family funeral. When they arrived, he tapped the coffin and said, “Is this life, or is this death?” 
 

Daowu said, “I won’t say life, I won’t say death.” 
 

Jianyuan said, “Why won’t you say?” 
 

Daowu said, “I won’t say, I won’t say.” 

On their way back Jianyuan said, “You should say it quickly for me, teacher, or I will hit you.” 
 

Daowu said, “Hit me if you will, but I will not say.” Jianyuan hit him.
 

After returning to the monastery Daowu said to Jianyuan, “You should take leave for a while; I’m afraid if the head monk finds out about this he will make trouble for you.”

After Daowu passed away, Jianyuan went to see Daowu’s successor Shishuang, told him the story, and asked for guidance.Shishuang said, “I won’t say life, I won’t say death.” 

Jianyuan said, “Why won’t you say it?” 

Shishuang said, “I won’t say, I won’t say.” 

Jianyuan immediately realized it. 

 

From Master Dogen's 300 Koan Shobogenzo, Case 29

 

Verse

 

In arriving not an atom is added,
Thus life is called “the unborn.”
In departing not a particle is lost,
Thus death is called “the unextinguished.”

 

Commentary by Stonehouse

 

Life and death are nothing but movement within the vast and inconceivable flow of the Way. Like Sunlight and Cloud Shadow. Like a flame that burns in the night. Phenomenon are  always changing, always between one state and another. It’s not the same little flame in every moment, nor is it necessarily a different flame. To say it is the same flame is wrong. To say it is a different flame is also wrong.

In the same way, we’re born and we die, but we also persist and continue. This paradox underlies all  human experience. Everything is impermanent and subject to constant change. From this impermanence all suffering arises. Yet everything is also unchanging and undying, springing from the Unborn.

 

There is not an atom or molecule in your body right now that is the same as it was at the moment of your birth, and yet these atoms and molecules in your blood and bones were present to witness the creation of the universe. The Heart-mind is in constant, dynamic equilibrium with the universe. The universe passes through us and is us. So what do you call the self? What is Jianyuan calling the self?

Alive or Dead? 

Will you dare say? 

Edited August 2, 2017 by Stonehouse

[Mark Foote]

Is it possible to survive the outhouse after such as these (can't say, can't say!)?

 

[kbe]

 "It is.  It isn't. It both is and isn't. It neither is nor isn't." With that in mind did Daowu say far more than a simple refusal to choose? 

 

Edited August 12, 2017 by kbe

[Hancock]

On 8/2/2017 at 2:22 PM, Stonehouse said:

The Case

Priest Jianyuan of Tan once accompanied his teacher, Daowu, on a condolence call to a family funeral. When they arrived, he tapped the coffin and said, “Is this life, or is this death?” 
 

Daowu said, “I won’t say life, I won’t say death.” 
 

Jianyuan said, “Why won’t you say?” 
 

Daowu said, “I won’t say, I won’t say.” 

On their way back Jianyuan said, “You should say it quickly for me, teacher, or I will hit you.” 
 

Daowu said, “Hit me if you will, but I will not say.” Jianyuan hit him.
 

After returning to the monastery Daowu said to Jianyuan, “You should take leave for a while; I’m afraid if the head monk finds out about this he will make trouble for you.”

After Daowu passed away, Jianyuan went to see Daowu’s successor Shishuang, told him the story, and asked for guidance.Shishuang said, “I won’t say life, I won’t say death.” 

Jianyuan said, “Why won’t you say it?” 

Shishuang said, “I won’t say, I won’t say.” 

Jianyuan immediately realized it. 

 

From Master Dogen's 300 Koan Shobogenzo, Case 29

 

Verse

 

In arriving not an atom is added,
Thus life is called “the unborn.”
In departing not a particle is lost,
Thus death is called “the unextinguished.”

 

Commentary by Stonehouse

 

Life and death are nothing but movement within the vast and inconceivable flow of the Way. Like Sunlight and Cloud Shadow. Like a flame that burns in the night. Phenomenon are  always changing, always between one state and another. It’s not the same little flame in every moment, nor is it necessarily a different flame. To say it is the same flame is wrong. To say it is a different flame is also wrong.

In the same way, we’re born and we die, but we also persist and continue. This paradox underlies all  human experience. Everything is impermanent and subject to constant change. From this impermanence all suffering arises. Yet everything is also unchanging and undying, springing from the Unborn.

 

There is not an atom or molecule in your body right now that is the same as it was at the moment of your birth, and yet these atoms and molecules in your blood and bones were present to witness the creation of the universe. The Heart-mind is in constant, dynamic equilibrium with the universe. The universe passes through us and is us. So what do you call the self? What is Jianyuan calling the self?

Alive or Dead? 

Will you dare say? 

Amazing. 

There's no word for the real self as I experience it, only descriptive and referencing words like me or I or mine. It looks like juanyuan is pointing to the real essential self beyond words an maintaining that consciousness by fighting his own ego with what appears to be nonsensical words an behavior.

His struggle even reaches outside an helps someone have a realization of their own.