hardcore meditation as a way out

[Spotless]

Just a few notes:

 

The more you meditate the less sleep you need, the easier it is to wake up in the morning and you will dissipate energy less from fidgeting and worry throughout the day.

 

It is easy to meditate several hours a day and have a young family and run a business - in fact it will be easier to do all of these things with a much greater quality of life.

 

if you are drawn to meditate many hours a day then allow yourself that grace and go with it. It is possible to take a very full load in college 20+ units a quarter and meditate well over 4 hours a day and have a 4.0

 

When one is younger one is less held by the frequencies of ones karma - it is generally easier to sprout in all directions. If the grace has come to meditate and establish the Way in your life more consciously - be with it - nothing will be lost in less social life.

 

We tend to look at meditation as though it is a thing or something like calisthenics - it is not - it takes some time to arrive at "meditating". The immediate benefits of quieting the mind could be said to be meditating but when the deep level of meditation is established (it generally takes a few years) you will come to see that what you set out upon and what you have come to understand are two different things. By this time the Way cannot but be your life - this is not to say you do not lead a full life - it is quite the opposite though it may not be a cookie cutter life.

 

"Hard core" meditation only looks that way from the outside - 4-20 hours a day is pretty hard core - but a life of suffering in the minutiae of fixed frequencies (karma) looks much more hard core. If grace has come to you to move from the abrasion of an unconscious life to Presence, "hard core" will be chewed like peanuts all day long.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Spotless

[rene]

On 08/05/2017 at 3:48 AM, Marblehead said:

But it can lead to it.

 

So can doing the dishes. (-:

[liminal_luke]

On 3/8/2017 at 4:40 PM, Orion said:

It can be done but it's been my observation that people who do formal meditations in this fashion are engaged in a form of spiritual bypassing. Most people feel good when they meditate, as they sink into presence and the extraneous bodymind stimulation ceases; but as soon as they leave the meditation they begin to suffering within minutes as they get annoyed, angry or anything else in relationship to their environment.

 

It seems that true healing can never happen as long as you are bypassing your human level experience. 

 

Who are these people who feel good when they meditate (and where can I get whatever they`re smoking)?  I`ve heard that some people are able to bypass "human level experience" through meditation -- and I believe it -- but it`s never been that way  for me.  My blockages, karma, issues, whatever you want to call it, come sledgehammering down on me as soon as I close my eyes.  

 

This is probably for the best as you`re right -- "true healing can never happen as long as you are bypassing your human level experience."  If I stick with things long enough to get to some sort of inner peace, a big if, then yes, I feel good.    

[thursday]

Feeling good should likely not be a goal (unless it's directly a goal to induce some state of mind), but we can aim to do our best and feel a sense of positive pride arising because of taking the right actions (inside/outside of meditation).. It's tricky. What we don't do right in our daily activities may merge into our meditation and vice versa, perceived as more blockages. I don't think it can be any other way. Stubbornness makes it hard to be soft.. We need to be flexible and go all in to increase our peace. So I hear from more experienced practitioners, I'm not there myself.. But seems like eventually we all have to go with life or otherwise we get frustrated..

[Stosh]

If I have to sit with my eyes closed, I might as well take a nap. Because the cascade of my reactions to my environment ,to the degree I am aware of it, are nothing like what goes on behind my eyelids, it seems. 

Many claim to meditate few claim enlightenment, few appear to be any different from any supposed experience , from the general population. 

I have no idea whatsoever what other people are doing when their eyes close , and so I have no reason to think that what they are doing, is going to lead affirmatively, anywhere., other than to the obvious event of avoiding daily tribulations. 

One is quite entitled to hibernate or engage as they see fit.

[Spotless]

If you set out on a trance meditation practice then in all likelihood you will never get to deep meditation and you will continually find it more as a high / low experience. Sleeping more may actually be a better option. Trance methods are bypassing methods - rabbits "way"

[Orion]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Who are these people who feel good when they meditate (and where can I get whatever they`re smoking)?  I`ve heard that some people are able to bypass "human level experience" through meditation -- and I believe it -- but it`s never been that way  for me.  My blockages, karma, issues, whatever you want to call it, come sledgehammering down on me as soon as I close my eyes.  

 

This is probably for the best as you`re right -- "true healing can never happen as long as you are bypassing your human level experience."  If I stick with things long enough to get to some sort of inner peace, a big if, then yes, I feel good.    

 

Let me rephrase. Formal meditation brings clarity but as soon as you stop the meditation it starts going away. We can use meditation to endlessly look at how the mind operates by bringing us into presence, but the mind is only one component of consciousness.

 

All humans enter the world as a nondual being and this lasts for the first year of life or so, and then we start identifying with the bodymind. The original self begins to take on imprints about reality which later become mindbody-based beliefs. As long as we are only meditating on mind-body identifications, we are not really getting to the root of anything, which is the understanding of where the original self took on a false pattern of dualistic being.

 

This is not the same as dissolving the ego or entering the Absolute. It's an Absolute-as-human experience of bliss without the need to transcend ordinary reality.

 

In short, I'm suggesting that most forms of meditation are not really getting at the root of anything, even though it seems like you are. We know this because even if you can achieve a state of emptiness and inner peace in the meditation, it can be thwarted once the meditation is over. That's because the grounded core that meditation creates is not the true foundation of our being, it's just another temporary state.

 

Realizing the original self is not enough, you have to live from it, as you. It can't be abdicated to the Absolute or bypassed with more bodymind programming.

 

I feel that most seekers of spiritual paths are actually looking for self-reunification and integration, not an Absolute experience, which is why they continue to struggle to find true peace. The way most meditations are proscribed provides no real intimacy with the human level experience. You're just supposed to empty yourself and be content with being an empty vessel, rather than the individuated form that the Absolute came into this world as; a form that has preferences and pathways that make it hum in resonance and others which create dissonance.

 

Any path that tries to homogenize all people rings hollow and it will never bring peace on earth. I have not seen a meditation path yet that addresses the human level core original self. Modern psychology can't do it either.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Orion

[bax44]

16 minutes ago, Orion said:

 

Let me rephrase. Formal meditation brings clarity but as soon as you stop the meditation it starts going away. We can use meditation to endlessly look at how the mind operates by bringing us into presence, but the mind is only one component of consciousness.

 

All humans enter the world as a nondual being and this lasts for the first year of life or so, and then we start identifying with the bodymind. The original self begins to take on imprints about reality which later become mindbody-based beliefs. As long as we are only meditating on mind-body identifications, we are not really getting to the root of anything, which is the understanding of where the original self took on a false pattern of dualistic being.

 

This is not the same as dissolving the ego or entering the Absolute. It's an Absolute-as-human experience of bliss without the need to transcend ordinary reality.

 

In short, I'm suggesting that most forms of meditation are not really getting at the root of anything, even though it seems like you are. We know this because even if you can achieve a state of emptiness and inner peace in the meditation, it can be thwarted once the meditation is over. That's because the grounded core that meditation creates is not the true foundation of our being, it's just another temporary state.

 

Realizing the original self is not enough, you have to live from it, as you. It can't be abdicated to the Absolute or bypassed with more bodymind programming.

 

I feel that most seekers of spiritual paths are actually looking for self-reunification and integration, not an Absolute experience, which is why they continue to struggle to find true peace. The way most meditations are proscribed provides no real intimacy with the human level experience. You're just supposed to empty yourself and be content with being an empty vessel, rather than the individuated form that the Absolute came into this world as; a form that has preferences and pathways that make it hum in resonance and others which create dissonance.

 

Any path that tries to homogenize all people rings hollow and it will never bring peace on earth. I have not seen a meditation path yet that addresses the human level core original self. Modern psychology can't do it either.

 

Youre making a lot of claims in this post as if they are fact, but I question a lot of it,  especially the "all humans enter life in a nondual state that only lasts for a year or so".. no offense but this just sounds like complete BS. Also, if you dont think meditation leads to anything "real" change wise, what do you suggest? You seem to be using these etheral terms such as "original self", what are the methods you use to reach this state that you claim meditation cant bring you? You also claim meditation brings clarity but then when you stop it just goes away. Very untrue in my experience. Of course this is the case in the beginning, but this is why like any other skill, you must continually practice-then the clarity sort of just starts to soak into your everyday experience.

 

Dont take offense as Im genuinely curious, but theres some things in your posts that dont ring true-to me at least.. unless you can explain in a manner that doesnt sound so "new age".

Edited August 6, 2017 by bax44
spellng

[Orion]

45 minutes ago, bax44 said:

 

Youre making a lot of claims in this post as if they are fact, but I question a lot of it,  especially the "all humans enter life in a nondual state that only lasts for a year or so".. no offense but this just sounds like complete BS. Also, if you dont think meditation leads to anything "real" change wise, what do you suggest? You seem to be using these etheral terms such as "original self", what are the methods you use to reach this state that you claim meditation cant bring you? You also claim meditation brings clarity but then when you stop it just goes away. Very untrue in my experience. Of course this is the case in the beginning, but this is why like any other skill, you must continually practice-then the clarity sort of just starts to soak into your everyday experience.

 

Dont take offense as Im genuinely curious, but theres some things in your posts that dont ring true-to me at least.. unless you can explain in a manner that doesnt sound so "new age".

 

It's not new age... but I'm not going to say where some of my ideas come from because it will engage categorical thinking which will obstruct what we're talking about.

 

Infants in their first year of life don't distinguish between themselves and the other. That forms later through bodymind identifications. Infants are pure presence. Whatever's happening is just what's happening. They don't have the cognition to identify with things as we do during the following periods. This is the original self, the real self.

 

All humans then engage in the process of entering duality by beginning to experience the world. If something keeps happening over and over to an infant, which it will, the infant then begins to experience the world as happening to it and thus duality begins.

 

Whether this engagement is under normal, healthy circumstances (i.e. parental support, safety, nourishment) or through trauma/abuse, the real-self mistakenly learns that the experience IS ITSELF. This happens to all of us, it's part of becoming human. The real-self sort of... folds in on itself, though not really. It always remains whole, it's just an illusion. On some level we realize, oh crap, I don't want to do this, I want to be pure presence, but the false reality has already been imprinted. Please note that the real-self is never fragmented, but it has patterns imprinted on it that create dualistic identifications later on.

 

All body-mind beliefs arise from this original imprinting. We then spend our entire lives trying to reunite with that sense of real-self, through the external world.

 

The benefit is, as we get older, we develop cognitive faculties to investigate where the original patterning happened. Unfortunately, most systems are focused on the body-mind mirages that arise from the imprinting of the real-self, rather than teaching methods of realizing the human level self that wants to be whole and seen.

 

The next evolution is human spiritual systems is going to be along those lines. Rather than endlessly trying to detangle bodymind from pure presence, and rather than experiencing pure presence as emptiness, it will be about a return to real-self origination on a human level without spiritually bypassing into the Absolute.

 

Meditation is not pointless, it has many uses. What I'm saying is that you can't dissolve ego until you have one, and ego will never be absolved until the falsely created (but understandable) reality of the original self is rectified. It's the true root.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Orion

[bax44]

25 minutes ago, Orion said:

 

It's not new age... but I'm not going to say where some of my ideas come from because it will engage categorical thinking which will obstruct what we're talking about.

 

Infants in their first year of life don't distinguish between themselves and the other. That forms later through bodymind identifications. Infants are pure presence. Whatever's happening is just what's happening. They don't have the cognition to identify with things as we do during the following periods. This is the original self, the real self.

 

All humans then engage in the process of entering duality by beginning to experience the world. If something keeps happening over and over to an infant, which it will, the infant then begins to experience the world as happening to it and thus duality begins.

 

Whether this engagement is under normal, healthy circumstances (i.e. parental support, safety, nourishment) or through trauma/abuse, the real-self mistakenly learns that the experience IS ITSELF. This happens to all of us, it's part of becoming human. The real-self sort of... folds in on itself, though not really. It always remains whole, it's just an illusion. On some level we realize, oh crap, I don't want to do this, I want to be pure presence, but the false reality has already been imprinted. Please note that the real-self is never fragmented, but it has patterns imprinted on it that create dualistic identifications later on.

 

All body-mind beliefs arise from this original imprinting. We then spend our entire lives trying to reunite with that sense of real-self, through the external world.

 

The benefit is, as we get older, we develop cognitive faculties to investigate where the original patterning happened. Unfortunately, most systems are focused on the body-mind mirages that arise from the imprinting of the real-self, rather than teaching methods of realizing the human level self that wants to be whole and seen.

 

The next evolution is human spiritual systems is going to be along those lines. Rather than endlessly trying to detangle bodymind from pure presence, and rather than experiencing pure presence as emptiness, it will be about a return to real-self origination on a human level without spiritually bypassing into the Absolute.

 

Meditation is not pointless, it has many uses. What I'm saying is that you can't dissolve ego until you have one, and ego will never be absolved until the falsely created (but understandable) reality of the original self is rectified. It's the true root.

 

I think I get better what youre saying now, although I still think youre making it needlessly complicated and throwing around a lot of terms that just add to the confusion. You seem to be implying that its a process of untangling conditioning-you just prefer or think other methods(which you still havent revealed) are more potent than meditating and will be using these in the future..apparently. I can grasp this to some extent but its still a very vague concept your presenting, at least from the mechanical side or methodology youd propose, which to me is the most important part-otherwise it could easily become just another belief system that needs to be discarded.

Anyways thanks for clarifying a bit.

Edited August 6, 2017 by bax44

[Orion]

3 hours ago, bax44 said:

 

I think I get better what youre saying now, although I still think youre making it needlessly complicated and throwing around a lot of terms that just add to the confusion. You seem to be implying that its a process of untangling conditioning-you just prefer or think other methods(which you still havent revealed) are more potent than meditating and will be using these in the future..apparently. I can grasp this to some extent but its still a very vague concept your presenting, at least from the mechanical side or methodology youd propose, which to me is the most important part-otherwise it could easily become just another belief system that needs to be discarded.

Anyways thanks for clarifying a bit.

 

I could provide instructions, a framework, and deeper reasoning... but it would take a long time and the process is very personal, depending on the person. I'm not trying to be intentionally vague.

[ChiForce]

Let's see......for most people, meditation can be a frightening experience by itself because  your mind is free flowing.  Thoughts and unpleasant thoughts would and can emerge.  Beings and entities would appear in your visions.    Yes, if you can overcome that....it won't harm a bit.  You should also need to realize that your meditation result should transfer to your dream visions.  It would defeat the purpose of being mindfulness in your meditation but have your mood and perspective being dictated by your dream visions. 

 

Of course, you can meditate in your dreams too.  Locking your legs in a full lotus position for hours may not be needed.  BTW, how did your room mate meditate? Was he in a full lotus position?  I would be impressed if he could meditate in a full lotus position for hours and hours.   

[johndoe2012]

On 7/8/2017 at 3:19 AM, Orion said:

 

I could provide instructions, a framework, and deeper reasoning... but it would take a long time and the process is very personal, depending on the person. I'm not trying to be intentionally vague.

 

Maybe create a new thread to provide more info. 

 

I would be interested. 

[Orion]

3 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

Maybe create a new thread to provide more info. 

 

I would be interested. 

 

It would take a lot of energy for me to entertain scrutiny at this time and I don't really have the energy. Maybe down the road.

[johndoe2012]

21 minutes ago, Orion said:

 

It would take a lot of energy for me to entertain scrutiny at this time and I don't really have the energy. Maybe down the road.

OK. 

 

I once interacted with a teacher who turned his back to spiritual systems because he found them flawed and anti human. 

 

When I dived into his vibration I had an ability to connect to others on a human level without any self concern and that evoked their essence as well. There was no resistance or struggle to be found. 

 

Also the critical mind completely disappeared. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by johndoe2012

[Orion]

Just now, johndoe2012 said:

OK. 

 

I once interacted with a teacher who turned his back to spiritual systems because he found the flawed and anti human. 

 

When I dived into his vibration I had an ability to connect to others on a human level without any self concern and that evoked their essence as well. There was no resistance or struggle to be found. 

 

Also the critical mind completely disappeared. 

 

The bodymind identifications and defense arise out of the original imprinting... where the real-self - or soul, though people have weird associations with this word - begins to believe it is the bodymind and the hard patterning becomes ingrained.

 

I prefer to talk about it in depth with people who are ready to surrender the mind stuff and get at what is really causing their suffering. Most "spiritual" people won't do it because they are stuck in systems thinking or spiritual bypassing of the very issues they claim are no longer affecting them.

[CedarTree]

Hardcore meditation like a life lived by Zazen as is done at Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery in America,

 

Or dedicating oneself to Anapanasati at an Ajahn Chah monastery for winter retreat.

 

Or living and practicing extreme noting/mindfulness as is done in the Mahasi lineage at Panditãrãma

 

Or delving into unfathomable Jhana at Pa Auk Monastery.

 

These will greatly change you.  Heal, enlighten, there are a lot of outcomes.  Done respectfully and properly speeds up this whole liberation practice.  One life time.

[Aetherous]

I had a period in my life of meditating all day every day. It can lead to peak experiences to go at something that intense. It does not lead to enlightenment.

I think a way of healing that's better is to focus on what you like, think of the life you want and how to create it, and to learn to enjoy the work it takes to make it happen.

[bax44]

18 hours ago, Aetherous said:

I had a period in my life of meditating all day every day. It can lead to peak experiences to go at something that intense. It does not lead to enlightenment.

I think a way of healing that's better is to focus on what you like, think of the life you want and how to create it, and to learn to enjoy the work it takes to make it happen.

 

Good post, but again, people making absolute statements always bothers me. "It does not lead to enlightenment", probably should be followed by..."for me". Also Im guessing since you know it doesnt lead to "enlightenment" you have a working definition of what that word even means, I see it get thrown around an awful lot with usually no understanding or definition of what it entails. I include myself here because I really have no clue what it means or how to define it.

Edited August 9, 2017 by bax44

[Aetherous]

3 hours ago, bax44 said:

Good post, but again, people making absolute statements always bothers me. "It does not lead to enlightenment", probably should be followed by..."for me". Also Im guessing since you know it doesnt lead to "enlightenment" you have a working definition of what that word even means, I see it get thrown around an awful lot with usually no understanding or definition of what it entails. I include myself here because I really have no clue what it means or how to define it.

 

It means omniscience.

[bax44]

6 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

It means omniscience.

 

oh kewl.

[roger]

On August 7, 2017 at 9:08 PM, ChiForce said:

Let's see......for most people, meditation can be a frightening experience by itself because  your mind is free flowing.  Thoughts and unpleasant thoughts would and can emerge.  Beings and entities would appear in your visions.    Yes, if you can overcome that....it won't harm a bit.  You should also need to realize that your meditation result should transfer to your dream visions.  It would defeat the purpose of being mindfulness in your meditation but have your mood and perspective being dictated by your dream visions. 

 

Of course, you can meditate in your dreams too.  Locking your legs in a full lotus position for hours may not be needed.  BTW, how did your room mate meditate? Was he in a full lotus position?  I would be impressed if he could meditate in a full lotus position for hours and hours.   

 

I'm not sure about the techniques he used or the position he sat in.

 

He told me that meditating so much enabled him to get by on only a few hours of sleep. He also said he would meditate as he went throughout the day (like a meditative mind).

 

Basically, for many years he would have these brief euruptions of extreme fear, like short extreme panic attacks. After five years of meditating several hours a day, they went away.

[Gerard]

I like the following two quotes:

 

+ Meditation can happen at any time.
- “Sitting zazen and mobile zazen are two functions equally dynamic and mutually reinforcing. Those who sit devotedly in zazen every day, their minds free of discriminating thoughts, find it easier to relate themselves wholeheartedly to their daily tasks, and those who perform every act with total attention and clear awareness find it less difficult to achieve emptiness of mind during sitting periods.”

 

...to sit regularly in any fashion and to perform all the affairs of daily life with devotion and clear awareness.”

 

Meditation ---> every single moment, anywhere. 

 

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2030043578