Forced Mind-Intention

[Louis]

Greetings,

 

I am wondering if anyone can point me to some essay, source, book or to whomever concerning forced mind-intention in terms of Qigong practice. I feel I am having problems with this. I put too much attention on for example, breathing or doing the form, etc. It is a habit, but causes problems. I know there is relaxation-not flaccid. There is sung. There is effortless effort, but these terms have no meaning to me. (I know the theory, but can't actualize them) I could give up, but I would rather not. Any thoughts? Thanks!

[Marblehead]

Hi Louis,

 

I know what you are talking about.  That is why I opted for empty-minded meditation.

 

 

[qicat]

Just now, Louis said:

concerning forced mind-intention

 

1. Qi moves faster than thought. You are "cooking" yourself. Try to put your intention in LD ASAP and keep it there for as long as you can. ( to bring energy down from the head).

 

2. JAJ Vol 2, ch 18. Mental Dao Yin page 474 and further. ( on theory and practice)

 

p 489 Obstacles in Mental Concentration:

Quote

Excessive Visions

Spiritual Crises

Strong Feelings of Sensuality

Sudden Illness

Disillusionment

Over-Sensitivity

 

 

p.s. hope you are not having one of those... 

 

[oak]

Mimicking my tense movements or breath or whatever usually works for me. When you can reproduce what you're doing wrong what follows is that you naturally start doing it right.

Edited August 6, 2017 by oak

[voidisyinyang]

3 hours ago, oak said:

Mimicking my tense movements or breath or whatever usually works for me. When you can reproduce what you're doing wrong what follows is that you naturally start doing it right.

 

I have a free pdf that goes into details about this.

 

Focus is left brain dominant. Visualization is right brain dominant.

 

Intention is awareness that is dominant as internal listening via the vagus nerve and the back of the brain.

 

I have images and science citations and Taoist book sources on this topic.

 

https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/04/10/idiot-s-guide-to-taoist-alchemy/

 

That's the link  to download the pdf.

 

Also it's posted online as scribd and on someone's tumblr - and on this website.

 

So basically you want relaxation of the muscles but the qi builds up via the collagen and nervous system - through piezoelectric resonance - along with visualization.

 

If you do sitting meditation that is visualization dominant.

 

If you do standing active meditation that is "internal listening" or intention dominant.

 

These two are not mutually exclusive - the pdf goes into that more.

 

The two biggest muscles in the body are the diaphragm and the glutes.

 

So sitting meditation also works those muscles through reverse breathing.

 

But the nervous system connections are crucial along with visualization. The pdf gives more details.

 

 

[Louis]

7 hours ago, oak said:

Mimicking my tense movements or breath or whatever usually works for me. When you can reproduce what you're doing wrong what follows is that you naturally start doing it right.

 

7 hours ago, oak said:

 

 This is interesting Oak. Could you elaborate?

[Louis]

7 hours ago, qicat said:

 

1. Qi moves faster than thought. You are "cooking" yourself. Try to put your intention in LD ASAP and keep it there for as long as you can. ( to bring energy down from the head).

 

2. JAJ Vol 2, ch 18. Mental Dao Yin page 474 and further. ( on theory and practice)

 

p 489 Obstacles in Mental Concentration:

 

 

p.s. hope you are not having one of those... 

Thanks Qicat, I don't think my situation is that severe yet. I think it is hard to explain. For example, I did one Tai chi Qigong form to build Qi, but after two attempts, I started feeling dizzy for two days, so i stopped. I want to be able to "listen" or "observe" my muscles, tendons, fascia etc, but I put too much focus on observing. When I focus, my breathing becomes erratic. Thus, I am not sure how to build Qi at this point. Thanks.

 

[Louis]

Thanks Voidisyinyang. I will take a look at this link, as well as the link to Qi deviations mentioned also. I think it is ironic that Qigong is supposed to be good for relaxing (and health in general), yet you must relax first before you can do Qigong properly!

 

Thanks 

[Hancock]

9 hours ago, Louis said:

Greetings,

 

I am wondering if anyone can point me to some essay, source, book or to whomever concerning forced mind-intention in terms of Qigong practice. I feel I am having problems with this. I put too much attention on for example, breathing or doing the form, etc. It is a habit, but causes problems. I know there is relaxation-not flaccid. There is sung. There is effortless effort, but these terms have no meaning to me. (I know the theory, but can't actualize them) I could give up, but I would rather not. Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

 

It's good to pay attention to the form, just try purposely alternating between what you know is wrong that flaccid an what you think is right, relaxed movement. You'll find that sweet spot where its almost effortless. I had the same difficulty but with experimentation I've found the proper personal Way.

 

The theories are great but expectations get in the way sometimes. That's why I suggest you try a few exercises.

 

Look at the tip of your finger where your hand meets the empty space. If you relax your eyes youll see a whitish or almost mirage like thing around your finger tip. If not your finger, trees have healthy chi usually so the top of them would do just find. 

  

 

Another good beginner tip that has develop Internal senses is to feel inside yourself if you're hungry, then feel his your back is feeling, then feel your breath in your mouth, then allow yourself to let yourself feel something outside of your body, a table, a plant, an animal. This develops internal and external capacity to sense Chi/Qi.

  This internal sense can be applied to Taichi an other martial arts. It's something many of us naturally do but was I was personally asked how I did it, so I broke it down to help others.

 

 

After you see the glow and can sense things, it's time to combine them by seeing someone's glow/chi field, then sense inside of it. You'll get impressions and if you try to sense their memories you'll most likely pick things up from their subconscious, or their thoughts, emotions, or moods, if you try to see them you might get stuff from their atmosphere but it's best to get in and get out. I suggest this only for assisting others with healing or clearing negativity from their atmosphere, or reading them for their benefit.

 

It works on video and YouTube videos too. The theory is because vids are links to certain points in time/space, an connection to that allows you to connect to the individual in their current state of being, or see into their energy levels at the time the video was played.

 

I caution against using this on the deceased. You get bad smells and spirits following you a bit. Anyhow. Lots of information that I know will help you actualize the benefits of most any type of practice.

 

Sensing chi by the way, you allow yourself to sense it but do not try to hold it with your senses. When peoplehold chi Minh city their senses, they are absorbing it. Sensing is about witnessing, discerning without judging. 

 

Hope it helped Louis

 

 

 

 

[oak]

3 hours ago, Louis said:

 

 This is interesting Oak. Could you elaborate?

There's not much to elaborate but here goes... for example I tend to carry much tension in my eyes and face even doing tai chi so sometimes when I don't seem to be able to stop it I just exagerate it for awhile (some seconds to a minute). After letting it go what follows is a feeling of natural relaxation. Imagine someone who has the bad habit of walking with the back bent. If someone made him do it deliberately what do you think it would happen afterwards? Trying to find a good article that may help you too. When I do I'll send it to you via pm.

[Hancock]

17 minutes ago, oak said:

There's not much to elaborate but here goes... for example I tend to carry much tension in my eyes and face even doing tai chi so sometimes when I don't seem to be able to stop it I just exagerate it for awhile (some seconds to a minute). After letting it go what follows is a feeling of natural relaxation. Imagine someone who has the bad habit of walking with the back bent. If someone made him do it deliberately what do you think it would happen afterwards? Trying to find a good article that may help you too. When I do I'll send it to you via pm.

Would you send that article to me too Oak, I'd appreciate it.

 

Louis, sometimes the best way to relax especially when you have tense areas is to just pay attention to them without trying to alter them in any way. It sounds weird and counter intuitive but it works sometimes. I no scientist so I don't know the reason, I've just found when I'm tense sometimes, especially in my shoulders, I just focus on them in an things start loosening up.

 

 

Also since you're starting out, I highly recommend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX-RzuaQI78 one of the best exercises to learn regardless of style, it's a fundamental to every kind of cultivation and internal development I've been involved in. Plus it might help you with your other issues you are having difficulty with.

[oak]

1 hour ago, Zenmode said:

Would you send that article to me too Oak, I'd appreciate it.

 

 

Sure. Sending it by pm because I think it can't be found online. I receive it by email. Also, some people don't need more advertising than what they already have.

Edited August 7, 2017 by oak
spelling

[Hancock]

3 minutes ago, oak said:

Sure. Sending it by pm because I think it can't be found online. I receive it by email. Also, some people don't need more advertisment than what they already have.

Not sure what you're meaning by advertising, but yeah if you could clarify that via pm I appreciate it bud.  Did I offend someone by suggesting something? I didn't mean to, have that person message me.

 

Also Thanks for the article ill be glad to have it sent to my pm. I'm excited.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Zenmode

[oak]

24 minutes ago, Zenmode said:

Not sure what you're meaning by advertising, but yeah if you could clarify that via pm I appreciate it bud.  Did I offend someone by suggesting something? I didn't mean to, have that person message me.

 

Also Thanks for the article ill be glad to have it sent to my pm. I'm excited.

 

Not referring to you, at all, just the article mentioned.

[Hancock]

14 hours ago, oak said:

 

Not referring to you, at all, just the article mentioned.

 Not sure i follow completely what you meant bout the article and advertising, but no harm, no foul.

 

An it was so a great article, very helpful. thanks

Edited August 8, 2017 by Zenmode

[Louis]

58 minutes ago, oak said:

There's not much to elaborate but here goes... for example I tend to carry much tension in my eyes and face even doing tai chi so sometimes when I don't seem to be able to stop it I just exagerate it for awhile (some seconds to a minute). After letting it go what follows is a feeling of natural relaxation. Imagine someone who has the bad habit of walking with the back bent. If someone made him do it deliberately what do you think it would happen afterwards? Trying to find a good article that may help you too. When I do I'll send it to you via pm.

Ah.... It's kind of like tensing a tense muscle even more, then letting it go. Maybe then we end up some where in between. Do I got it?

[oak]

21 minutes ago, Louis said:

Ah.... It's kind of like tensing a tense muscle even more, then letting it go. Maybe then we end up some where in between. Do I got it?

 

Pretty much 

[doc benway]

13 hours ago, Louis said:

Greetings,

 

I am wondering if anyone can point me to some essay, source, book or to whomever concerning forced mind-intention in terms of Qigong practice. I feel I am having problems with this. I put too much attention on for example, breathing or doing the form, etc. It is a habit, but causes problems. I know there is relaxation-not flaccid. There is sung. There is effortless effort, but these terms have no meaning to me. (I know the theory, but can't actualize them) I could give up, but I would rather not. Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

A few thoughts -

My approach to qigong/taijiquan/neigong is not to force but to feel.

When we first learn a routine, whatever it is, there is a process of just learning the movement.

That can feel forced certainly, that is natural until we are comfortable with the external movement.

 

Once we have a handle on the external movement, it is time to let go a little.

It is a matter of simply inhabiting the body as it goes through the motions.

Similarly, it is enough to inhabit the breath - allow the body to breath and simply be there.

The most important fundamental principle, IMO, is to remain connected to the body and breath.

That connection is simply feeling what is happening in the body, breath, and mind as it happens.

Connection is not forcing, connection is not daydreaming, connection is not being in a trance.

 

If it is difficult what moving, try connecting in a simply and comfortable standing posture.

I always recommend becoming familiar with standing before moving. 

Once you are able to stand and rest, and simply be in the body, and feel the body without excessive distraction; then it is time to begin moving the body and maintaining that connection.

 

Relaxation can be felt by first tensing the muscles - very tight, then letting go - that is relaxation.

Song can be felt by first allowing the body to totally collapse - completely flaccid, then assume a posture, any posture.

Finding the balance between tension and flaccidity, structure with minimal tension - that is song.

 

Effortless effort is not a term I find terribly useful. There is effort, there is less effort, there is no effort. 

In the beginning, it is fine and necessary to experience effort. Don't struggle with it.

Do what it is your intention to do with whatever effort is necessary.

Be aware of the effort involved. Can it be lessened?

Gradually, the degree of effort can become less.

Over time, we can find a place where we are exerting very little, if any effort (consciously) and yet the state we are in (meditation) or the motion we are in (qigong, taijiquan) simply goes on and we inhabit it.

 

I've got to get to work but I hope that is of some value to you. 

Good luck!

[oak]

22 minutes ago, steve said:

 

A few thoughts -

My approach to qigong/taijiquan/neigong is not to force but to feel.

When we first learn a routine, whatever it is, there is a process of just learning the movement.

That can feel forced certainly, that is natural until we are comfortable with the external movement.

 

Once we have a handle on the external movement, it is time to let go a little.

It is a matter of simply inhabiting the body as it goes through the motions.

Similarly, it is enough to inhabit the breath - allow the body to breath and simply be there.

The most important fundamental principle, IMO, is to remain connected to the body and breath.

That connection is simply feeling what is happening in the body, breath, and mind as it happens.

Connection is not forcing, connection is not daydreaming, connection is not being in a trance.

 

If it is difficult what moving, try connecting in a simply and comfortable standing posture.

I always recommend becoming familiar with standing before moving. 

Once you are able to stand and rest, and simply be in the body, and feel the body without excessive distraction; then it is time to begin moving the body and maintaining that connection.

 

Relaxation can be felt by first tensing the muscles - very tight, then letting go - that is relaxation.

Song can be felt by first allowing the body to totally collapse - completely flaccid, then assume a posture, any posture.

Finding the balance between tension and flaccidity, structure with minimal tension - that is song.

 

Effortless effort is not a term I find terribly useful. There is effort, there is less effort, there is no effort. 

In the beginning, it is fine and necessary to experience effort. Don't struggle with it.

Do what it is your intention to do with whatever effort is necessary.

Be aware of the effort involved. Can it be lessened?

Gradually, the degree of effort can become less.

Over time, we can find a place where we are exerting very little, if any effort (consciously) and yet the state we are in (meditation) or the motion we are in (qigong, taijiquan) simply goes on and we inhabit it.

 

I've got to get to work but I hope that is of some value to you. 

Good luck!

 

You are a great teacher steve.

[voidisyinyang]

6 hours ago, Louis said:

Thanks Voidisyinyang. I will take a look at this link, as well as the link to Qi deviations mentioned also. I think it is ironic that Qigong is supposed to be good for relaxing (and health in general), yet you must relax first before you can do Qigong properly!

 

Thanks 

 

Right - the standing active exercise builds up the qi or "cultivates" it and the sitting meditation "gathers" or "harvests" the qi. So if a person is too tired to do standing meditation, then you can first do sitting meditation or if you have lots of energy, then do standing meditation first.

 

But it's best to do sitting meditation in full lotus.

 

So it is a kind of tensegrity - whereby the tension builds up into a deeper vagus nerve bliss that stores up the qi energy.

 

So for example if the legs go numb - the qi has gone to the top of the head - but then if in full lotus when the sensation comes back to the legs - that means that more qi has built up, along with more bliss.

 

But it takes mental focus to break through the legs going numb. If not possible, then do standing active exercise and that will open up the leg channels more, etc.

 

But it is with the eyes closed and deep relaxation that really builds up the energy and this is what Western culture doesn't understand.

 

So we think sitting in our rooms with eyes closed is being lazy. Hey if a person needs to check up on their sleep than by all means! haha.

 

But how many can sit in full lotus? So doing the visualization while in full lotus then combines sitting and standing meditations.

 

Also it's better to have the left leg on top while in full lotus.

 

https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/04/10/idiot-s-guide-to-taoist-alchemy/

[doc benway]

Thanks oak, very kind of you to say that.

[Louis]

Steve, that was very useful. I guess Im impatient, then I place a strong judgment on what I sense. Therefore things like relaxation and sung are quite challenging, but your approach is quite reasonable. Thanks again.

[dawei]

On 8/6/2017 at 6:54 PM, Louis said:

Greetings,

 

I am wondering if anyone can point me to some essay, source, book or to whomever concerning forced mind-intention in terms of Qigong practice. I feel I am having problems with this. I put too much attention on for example, breathing or doing the form, etc. It is a habit, but causes problems. I know there is relaxation-not flaccid. There is sung. There is effortless effort, but these terms have no meaning to me. (I know the theory, but can't actualize them) I could give up, but I would rather not. Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

There are recommendations on Dr. Yang's books here:

 

Yi leads Qi

 

Dr. Yang Best Books

 

 

On 8/7/2017 at 6:51 AM, oak said:

There's not much to elaborate but here goes... for example I tend to carry much tension in my eyes and face even doing tai chi so sometimes when I don't seem to be able to stop it I just exagerate it for awhile (some seconds to a minute). After letting it go what follows is a feeling of natural relaxation. Imagine someone who has the bad habit of walking with the back bent. If someone made him do it deliberately what do you think it would happen afterwards? Trying to find a good article that may help you too. When I do I'll send it to you via pm.

 

Let go to let go... there are various levels, not limited to: Physical, Emotional, Psychological, Energetic, Spiritual.

 

You can let go of one but not be letting go of another.  Realize these are all connected as One.

 

As long as you are treating them discretely then they are separate items to let go of.

[Kar3n]

45 minutes ago, dawei said:

...

 

Let go to let go... there are various levels, not limited to: Physical, Emotional, Psychological, Energetic, Spiritual.

 

You can let go of one but not be letting go of another.  Realize these are all connected as One.

 

As long as you are treating them discretely then they are separate items to let go of.

Wow!

 

Thank you.

[RiverSnake]

OP, sounds like you got a lot of body tension that's inhibiting you from "loosening up" and thus being able to apply "relaxed force". There are many techniques to help you work through these things...it always takes many years of daily practice to do so.