Mair 11:2

[Marblehead]

Ts'ui Chu {{A fictional character.}} inquired of Old Longears, saying, "If you do not govern all under heaven, how can you make men's minds good?"  "You must be careful not to disturb men's minds," said Old Longears.  "When constrained, the human mind becomes depressed; when encouraged, it becomes elated.  Whether through depression or through elation, the human mind may be imprisoned or killed.  It is so soft that it can be worn down by what is hard and strong, yet its angles are sharp enough to chisel or carve.  Its heat is like scorching fire, its cold is like solid ice.  The mind may be so agitated that, in an instant, it has twice reached out beyond the four seas.  {{The waters surrounding the continent inhabited by the ancient Chinese.}}  At rest, it is deep-seated and calm.  In action, it is remote as the sky.  Ardently proud, it is not to be tied down.  Such is the human mind!"

[Stosh]

I guess ya gotta say that he has enthusiasm for the human spirit. Though the translation may be glossing over various nuances,or important inferences,  , and could throw in some words like spirit. That one can crush creativity  enthusiasm and imagination. That learning is not considered governance musnt be ! if we are to have these great ideas ,and so forth.  So I take it that governance being spoken of is narrowly meant to be applied reward and punishment with the intent to enthrall. Persons not provoked tempted diminished threatened already have virtue. But notice he isnt against active engagement ,,, some seem to draw a picture where virtue is only being at rest, only nondual apprehension , and think he squashes that idea here, even if the translation is missing some nuance.

[Marblehead]

Yes, I think it can be said that being natural is being virtuous.  Difficult concept to deal with though.

 

[Stosh]

13 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yes, I think it can be said that being natural is being virtuous.  Difficult concept to deal with though.

 

Yeah, the habit is to just keep squeezing virtue into the box of the word as we already use it.  I keep coming back to psychopathology though , if its virtue for lions to kill zebras , isnt it virtue for them to kill people? and if so, then killing people must also be potentially virtue, and if so , there seems no constraint limitation ,on behavior suggested by virtue. So what could it be? 

[Stosh]

Waking up from sleep ,after establishing a regular schedule , is easier. And suddenly some french toast is enough of a temptation to dump that lovely dreamy half wake state unceremoniously. 

[Marblehead]

21 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Yeah, the habit is to just keep squeezing virtue into the box of the word as we already use it.  I keep coming back to psychopathology though , if its virtue for lions to kill zebras , isnt it virtue for them to kill people? and if so, then killing people must also be potentially virtue, and if so , there seems no constraint limitation ,on behavior suggested by virtue. So what could it be? 

Yeah, like I said, s difficult concept.

 

I think likely the concepts of intent and cause are important here.

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

why is the passage cut short? In this rendering the answer is a non-sequitur. The explanation is missing.

 

/Legge/

 

 

Cui Ji asked Lao Dan, saying, 'If you do not govern the world, how can you make men's minds good?' The reply was, 'Take care how you meddle with and disturb men's minds. The mind, if pushed about, gets depressed; if helped forward, it gets exalted. Now exalted, now depressed, here it appears as a prisoner, and there as a wrathful fury. (At one time) it becomes pliable and soft, yielding to what is hard and strong; (at another), it is sharp as the sharpest corner, fit to carve or chisel (stone or jade). Now it is hot as a scorching fire, and anon it is cold as ice. It is so swift that while one is bending down and lifting up his head, it shall twice have put forth a soothing hand beyond the four seas. Resting, it is still as a deep abyss; moving, it is like one of the bodies in the sky; in its resolute haughtiness, it refuses to be bound - such is the mind of man!'

Anciently, Huang-Di was the first to meddle with and disturb the mind of man with his benevolence and righteousness. After him, Yao and Shun wore their thighs bare and the hair off the calves of their legs, in their labours to nourish the bodies of the people. They toiled painfully with all the powers in their five viscera at the practice of their benevolence and righteousness; they tasked their blood and breath to make out a code of laws - and after all they were unsuccessful. On this Yao sent away Huan Dou to Chong hill, and (the Chiefs of) the Three Miao to San-wei, and banished the Minister of Works to the Dark Capital; so unequal had they been to cope with the world. Then we are carried on to the kings of the Three (dynasties), when the world was in a state of great distraction. Of the lowest type of character there were Jie and Zhi; of a higher type there were Zeng (Shen) and Shi (Qiu). At the same time there arose the classes of the Literati and the Mohists.

 

Hereupon, complacency in, and hatred of, one another produced mutual suspicions; the stupid and the wise imposed on one another; the good and the bad condemned one another; the boastful and the sincere interchanged their recriminations - and the world fell into decay. Views as to what was greatly virtuous did not agree, and the nature with its endowments became as if shrivelled by fire or carried away by a flood. All were eager for knowledge, and the people were exhausted with their searchings (after what was good). On this the axe and the saw were brought into play; guilt was determined as by the plumb-line and death inflicted; the hammer and gouge did their work. The world fell into great disorder, and presented the appearance of a jagged mountain ridge. The crime to which all was due was the meddling with and disturbing men's minds.

 

The effect was that men of ability and worth lay concealed at the foot of the crags of mount Tai, and princes of ten thousand chariots were anxious and terrified in their ancestral temples. In the present age those who have been put to death in various ways lie thick as if pillowed on each other; those who are wearing the cangue press on each other (on the roads); those who are suffering the bastinado can see each other (all over the land).

 

And now the Literati and the Mohists begin to stand, on tiptoe and with bare arms, among the fettered and manacled crowd! Ah! extreme is their shamelessness, and their failure to see the disgrace! Strange that we should be slow to recognise their sageness and wisdom in the bars of the cangue, and their benevolence and righteousness in the rivets of the fetters and handcuffs! How do we know that Zeng and Shi are not the whizzing arrows of Jie and Zhi? Therefore it is said, 'Abolish sageness and cast away knowledge, and the world will be brought to a state of great order.'

[Stosh]

9 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, like I said, s difficult concept.

 

I think likely the concepts of intent and cause are important here.

 

 

Ok , how to word it then ?

1  Virtue is not to have any intent to cause anything to happen.

2 Virtue is to cause the  things to happen, that one intends. 

3 Virtue is the intent to cause things to happen, which one doesn't intend. 

4 Virtue is to cause things to happen that one does not intend. 

? got a favorite permutation. ..

I think version  number 2 would be a pretty standard idea. If you agree its a good start , then there would need to be another character in the mix. 

SO ,  Virtue is to cause things to happen which one intends ... by doing the reverse of what normal people would pick? .   

By doing things halfway , by choosing things that society deems good, by doing things which make you least uncomfortable .... ? 

Virtue is to do things which you intend , and not much of what you dont intend , when what you intend is to have no impact based on your own preferences? so you're like some robot or a blameless cog in a machine..? 

add your own modifier . 

Edited August 9, 2017 by Stosh

[mrpasserby]

8 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Ok , how to word it then ?

1  Virtue is not to have any intent to cause anything to happen.

2 Virtue is to cause the  things to happen, that one intends. 

3 Virtue is the intent to cause things to happen, which one doesn't intend. 

4 Virtue is to cause things to happen that one does not intend. 

? got a favorite permutation. ..

I think version  number 2 would be a pretty standard idea. If you agree its a good start , then there would need to be another character in the mix. 

SO ,  Virtue is to cause things to happen which one intends ... by doing the reverse of what normal people would pick? .   

By doing things halfway , by choosing things that society deems good, by doing things which make you least uncomfortable .... ? 

add your own modifier . 

I have enjoyed the deep wisdom of many of your posts, this post has inspired me to post a story.

Edited August 9, 2017 by mrpasserby
attached file problem

[Stosh]

Just now, mrpasserby said:

I have Parable-Intention FINAL.docx the deep wisdom of many of your posts, this post has inspired me to post a story.

I cant read that format.  

[Stosh]

Matthew 21:28-30Tree of Life Version (TLV)

A Parable about Intentions and Actions

28 “Now what do you think? A man had two sons, and he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go work in the vineyard today.’ 29 The son answered, ‘I won’t,’ but afterward he had a change of heart and went. 30 The man went to the second son and said the same thing. But he answered, ‘I will, sir,’ and didn’t go.

[Marblehead]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

why is the passage cut short? In this rendering the answer is a non-sequitur. The explanation is missing.

 

/Legge/

 

Fair question.  First I checked to make sure I didn't leave anything out.  Then I compared Mair with Watson and they are similar.

 

Perhaps Legge added that for emphasis?

 

[Marblehead]

49 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Ok , how to word it then ?

1  Virtue is not to have any intent to cause anything to happen.

2 Virtue is to cause the  things to happen, that one intends. 

 

I think Chuang Tzu would accept this but nothing more, and, in that order.

 

Personally, I would have 2 as number 1 and 1 as the second.

 

[Stosh]

Combined, it reads to me, that virtue is any self directed action or restraint. That would be fine, but then, it covers everything other than compliance from the most antisocial self destructive error , to the unintended natural consequences we dont keep track of. So the lady leaving her dog in the 118 degree vehicle and tried running over the cop giving her a summons, was acting with virtue according to Cz. 

[Marblehead]

I told you this was going to be difficult.

 

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

I told you this was going to be difficult.

 

Yes, you did, but if you stick with your earlier answer , I figure that you feel that what is getting called virtue is just self determination.

The word choice 'virtue' is entirely wrong in its  connotation, and it should never have been used.The TTC is then potentially - the Classic book of self-determination for those who wish to indulge in their feminine side.

And the Cz doesn't teach what virtue is, it is discussing the self-determination which Cz considers a good thing. 

Fine , I'll try to keep that in mind , and everyone else is just wrong.   No biggie, I see it all the time. 

Its really a superb solution to so many issues. The Zz could be renamed the book of Freedom. and the many who have been duped by early western missionaries will finally be freed of their understandable confusion. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Great response Stosh.  I'm not trying to supply any new perspectives regarding the TTC or the Chuang Tzu but you know I will respond to any question asked, if I feel capable of responding, and sometimes it seems I am contradicting myself.  I try to offer my honest opinion and understanding to the individual questions as, as I have said, I have no agenda.

 

Yes, self-determination is a good word/concept.  But we do have guidance from both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu as to what choices would be best for our self and our fellow man (and woman too).

 

 

[Stosh]

41 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Great response Stosh.  I'm not trying to supply any new perspectives regarding the TTC or the Chuang Tzu but you know I will respond to any question asked, if I feel capable of responding, and sometimes it seems I am contradicting myself.  I try to offer my honest opinion and understanding to the individual questions as, as I have said, I have no agenda.

 

Yes, self-determination is a good word/concept.  But we do have guidance from both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu as to what choices would be best for our self and our fellow man (and woman too).

 

 

If you wanted to draw one of those examples out for a look-see, I'm game , but I really do think your perspective neatly encompasses well the perspectives which were being proposed.

Self restraint Good , getting carried away with the indulgence Bad, Why ?, because you're getting carried away by it, just like you can be diverted by silly fears and misconceptions.

Generalized hostility, Bad , Why? because you have to keep looking over your shoulder, and you'd really rather be getting along with folks, its stressful. 

.. its really a very smooth fit, even using natural creatures behaviors as a model. Well done  

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Stosh

[Michael Sternbach]

On 9.8.2017 at 1:09 PM, Stosh said:

Yeah, the habit is to just keep squeezing virtue into the box of the word as we already use it.  I keep coming back to psychopathology though , if its virtue for lions to kill zebras , isnt it virtue for them to kill people? and if so, then killing people must also be potentially virtue, and if so , there seems no constraint limitation ,on behavior suggested by virtue. So what could it be? 

 

It may be virtuous for lions to kill and eat both zebras and humans. It isn't virtuous for them to kill other lions though.

 

It isn't virtuous for humans to kill other humans. However, it is virtuous for humans not to be killed by lions.

 

Not least, it is virtuous for humans to avoid zebra thinking.