Reality vs. Unreality

[liminal_luke]

Some things are more real than others.  Bums who insist on the solid physical existence of the material universe are just a passing dream.

[Marblehead]

I could ramble on about that but instead I will just agree with you.

 

[dwai]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

On this point, both the Tao Te Ching and I disagree with you (which is why it is differentiated in the TTC).  But, I would agree that your view is consistent with the normal Hindu view, and since I just noticed this is a Hindu forum discussion, I will now bow out...

 

Thanks for the discussion.

It's your choice Jeff and I respect that. But I don't agree that TTC disagrees with me. Your interpretation of the TTC does, of course.

Lao Tzu is saying pretty much exactly what Advaita Vedanta is saying, in the TTC (according to my understanding of the TTC. It is really very simple). But as we have observed before, it's cool to have differences of opinions and understanding. 

 

MH, we will all find out how real or unreal this world is sooner or later. Till then we have our own realizations and experiences to inform us.

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by dwai

[neti neti]

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I think we are perhaps putting too much reliance on our individual mind.  

 

Me thinks you're thinking too hard. But I suppose the 10,000 wouldn't be the 10,000 without a bit of irony.

 

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Doesn't really matter.  Had you been then you would have been just as incorrect as he is.

 

 

Whether short and to the point or long and drawn out, nothing much gets through to a mind that's made up.

 

In the absence of mind, nothing much matters at all.

Edited August 9, 2017 by neti neti

[neti neti]

10 hours ago, phil48 said:

If I zoomed really close on my table I would realize that it isn't stable at all. Just some electrons, protons and neutrons moving really fast giving me the perception of a stable table. I see it stable, because that's the way my senses are designed to perceive it. But no matter how I perceive it, both sides are valid and true, aren't they?

To find truth it's more a perception of "this and that" instead of "this or that" I guess.

 

Or perhaps the only valid and true perception is, no perception. Zoom in, zoom out... whatever. Maybe, there is only the zoomer?

 

Perhaps the zoomer, is "this" and "that."

Edited August 9, 2017 by neti neti

[neti neti]

9 hours ago, phil48 said:

So, but is there really a difference between my self and the world? 

 

How would your Self see your Self?

[wstein]

18 hours ago, neti neti said:

I believe this illustrates well the nuanced meaning behind a statement like, "the world is unreal." This leaves too much room for assumptions, the limitations of language strike again. A more accurate one-line expression would be something like... "The world's appearance has no reality unto itself apart from whom it appears to."

I don't think the quoted paragraph explains the nuances of "the world is unreal". The quote explains quite well that the world as perceived is not the actual world.

 

What is missing is that ALL the aspects like 'ornament', 'gold', 'dog' and 'stone' are also constructs YOU create and do not reflect the actuality of anything. So to see the dog or the stone is still not to see reality.

[Marblehead]

7 hours ago, dwai said:

MH, we will all find out how real or unreal this world is sooner or later. Till then we have our own realizations and experiences to inform us.

 

Well, if you are still alive after I die then you will know that you are real and not just a figment of my imagination.

 

My Mom thought she gave birth to a wonderful little boy and gave him a name.  My Mom psassed on many years ago but the little boy grew up to be a man and is still here.  My Mom wasn't delusional.

 

[Marblehead]

6 hours ago, neti neti said:

 

Me thinks you're thinking too hard. But I suppose the 10,000 wouldn't be the 10,000 without a bit of irony.

Oh, I don't think.  I just respond intuitively.

 

And if you don't have an irony board you will have to do your irony on the floor or dinning room table.

 

6 hours ago, neti neti said:

Whether short and to the point or long and drawn out, nothing much gets through to a mind that's made up.

 

In the absence of mind, nothing much matters at all.

My mind isn't made up (too much).  I am open to alternate perspectives.  But I will confess that if these alternate perspectives cannot be supported in reality as I perceive it they really have little chance of being adopted by me.

 

Yes, I agree, no mind, no life.  (And BTW, there are a lot of zombies walking around on this planet.)

[Marblehead]

6 hours ago, neti neti said:

 

How would your Self see your Self?

This is called ego, isn't it?

 

[Marblehead]

I actually agree with Dwai that at the philosophical level there is little difference between Taoism and Hinduism.  It is when we talk about the Hindu religion is where we find the differences.

 

[3bob]

The One is the first "born" of Tao, and also the last to "return"...so we might ask if the One and everything under it is "real" if such is born and also returns? (born or returns how and to what?)  I submit that a further definition of real should be added along these lines namely that all "things" born are in flux yet also connected to Tao,  thus there is nowhere or nothing that is ultimately unreal for only an incomplete perception attempts to separate a real from an unreal... (like trying to say or proclaim on the manifest scale that only light energy is real while dense matter is unreal) 

Edited August 9, 2017 by 3bob

[neti neti]

10 hours ago, wstein said:

I don't think the quoted paragraph explains the nuances of "the world is unreal". The quote explains quite well that the world as perceived is not the actual world.

 

What is missing is that ALL the aspects like 'ornament', 'gold', 'dog' and 'stone' are also constructs YOU create and do not reflect the actuality of anything. So to see the dog or the stone is still not to see reality.

Very good, and yet again, the key point fails to be addressed: The world as perceived and its perceiver are without difference. Unfailingly, the seer insists on pointing, "look, can't you see?", but refuses to reverse his gaze.

 

This is the crux of the subtle nuance drawing one's focus toward... the finger pointing, the moon or the starry night sky... and completely misses the backdrop's substratum in which that wondrous scene is made manifest. "That" is the only "Real", which requires no focus or perception.

 

What is MISSING, is that YOU, the ACTUALITY, focus on reflections between two mirrors rather than the light which makes reflections possible.

 

To say, "I see" anything, is to Not see your Self.

Edited August 9, 2017 by neti neti

[neti neti]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

And if you don't have an irony board you will have to do your irony on the floor or dinning room table.

 

Lol. Well since the Great Way is easy for those without preferences, I may just throw on an old t-shirt and head for the door.

Edited August 9, 2017 by neti neti

[neti neti]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

This is called ego, isn't it?

 

 

Excellent! Now, if you would my good sir, please point out where this fabricated I is located that I may shake his hand and thank him for all he's done. 

Edited August 9, 2017 by neti neti

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, neti neti said:

 

Excellent! Now, if you would my good sir, please point out where this fabricated I is located that I may shake his hand and thank him for all he's done. 

I have been down that road before.  The "I" that I refer to as Marblehead is an accumulation of all that I have ever experienced as well as all things I have ingested and especially all the thoughts I have ever had.  But generally speaking, it is this body and all its attachments.  I guess Hindus are allowed to have attachments? 

 

 

[dwai]

4 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Well, if you are still alive after I die then you will know that you are real and not just a figment of my imagination.

 

My Mom thought she gave birth to a wonderful little boy and gave him a name.  My Mom psassed on many years ago but the little boy grew up to be a man and is still here.  My Mom wasn't delusional.

 

Not at all. I'm not calling your mom delusional of course. All I'm suggesting is that your mom, my mom, you and me are not different and separate at all. We appear to be individuals who are born in different parts of the world (or even universe). But it's the same consciousness that animates our apparent separate existence

 

And if I die before you, all you will know is that an object in your own consciousness rose and then disappeared. It informs nothing about me, the apparently separate individual or my realness.  

Edited August 9, 2017 by dwai

[dwai]

4 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I actually agree with Dwai that at the philosophical level there is little difference between Taoism and Hinduism.  It is when we talk about the Hindu religion is where we find the differences.

 

Actually what we've been discussing is practical philosophy. Eastern philosophy is not merely intellectual. It's entire purpose is to deal with existential questions in the most practical manner. 

[3bob]

Hi MH,  I'm no expert but I've studied that "Hinduism" covers a great variety of teachings like almost anything from A-Z...in concepts, beliefs, practices and experiences which btw. don't all agree....although there are key precepts (for instance non-violence, soul, reincarnation, certain scriptures, the commonly recognized god Ganesh, levels of dharma's, karma's, etc.) that all Hindus by the broadest definition collectively and basically or mostly agree upon or about.  (and of course there is so much more that has been written (or said) in  thousands of volumes over thousands of years by thousands of teachers and members of its various sects!)

Edited August 10, 2017 by 3bob

[rene]

4 hours ago, neti neti said:

 

Excellent! Now, if you would my good sir, please point out where this fabricated I is located that I may shake his hand and thank him for all he's done. 

 

neti neti, hello

I just started a topic (titled: Both, same time) and would very much like your input on it, if you are so inclined. If not that's fine; no harm no foul. (-:

warm greetings

[neti neti]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I have been down that road before.  The "I" that I refer to as Marblehead is an accumulation of all that I have ever experienced as well as all things I have ingested and especially all the thoughts I have ever had.  But generally speaking, it is this body and all its attachments.  I guess Hindus are allowed to have attachments? 

 

 

 

Thanks for responding. As you strolled along the beaten path, have you ever paused and admired the flowers? Since you're familiar with where this is going, let's try an alternate route and see where it leads us.

 

This "I" which you claim, this story of the bundle of body/mind with its memories and experiences...

 

Is it You, or... is it Yours?

Edited August 9, 2017 by neti neti

[cold]

Strolling along the beaten path one should keep ones awareness / wits about them less the proverbial tree fall on them

[Marblehead]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

 But it's the same consciousness that animates our apparent separate existence

 

Wait a minute!  Are you suggesting that supreme consciousness is such that it wants us all to feel as if we are separate individuals?

 

Maybe, just maybe, if that is true then it is actually true that we are indeed separate individuals.

 

I know that the moon and the Earth are different and separate existences.

 

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, 3bob said:

Hi MH,  I'm no expert ...

Hey, we all know that I'm no expert.  I'm just having a nice conversation with a couple Hindu members here of a subject I have some personal understandings and opinions of.

 

I enjoy these discussions whenever my Hindu and Buddhist friends allow me to express my understandings openly.

 

I learn from them even though I would likely never admit it.

 

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, neti neti said:

 

Thanks for responding. As you strolled along the beaten path, have you ever paused and admired the flowers? Since you're familiar with where this is going, let's try an alternate route and see where it leads us.

I have been working my butt of in my front gardens so that I can admire the flowers and other plant (my choice of plants) growth.

 

4 hours ago, neti neti said:

 

This "I" which you claim, this story of the bundle of body/mind with its memories and experiences...

Yes, all the stuff that has become "I am".

 

4 hours ago, neti neti said:

 

Is it You, or... is it Yours?

It's not mine.  I am only the caretaker.  (Chuang Tzu told me that and I believe him.)  It all returns or goes to wherever it goes as I live and after I die.