Reality vs. Unreality

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, cold said:

Strolling along the beaten path one should keep ones awareness / wits about them less the proverbial tree fall on them

Ironically, in the news during the past week two different incidents of a tree falling on someone and killing them.

 

And I agree:  Awareness, Awareness, Awareness!

 

[neti neti]

24 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

It's not mine.  I am only the caretaker.  (Chuang Tzu told me that and I believe him.)  It all returns or goes to wherever it goes as I live and after I die.

 

 

 

Most interesting! Who is the caretaker?

 

Have you come and, will you go? Who lives and dies? You? Who is this, you?

Edited August 9, 2017 by neti neti

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

Who is the caretaker?

 

Have you come and, will you go? Who lives and dies? You? Who is this, you?

You didn't waste any time getting to this point.  Hehehe.

 

The awareness my mind posses is the caretaker.  I cannot accept the concept of universal consciousness.  We each have our own level of awareness and consciousness.

 

 

My physical essence (I) was born.  I will die.  So yes, I came into yu (the manifest) out of wu (mystery, potential) and what is this "I" will transmutate and/or return to potential.

 

Again, the totality of what I presently am and have ever been is the who that lives and will die.

 

[neti neti]

1 minute ago, Marblehead said:

You didn't waste any time getting to this point.  Hehehe.

 

The awareness my mind posses is the caretaker.  I cannot accept the concept of universal consciousness.  We each have our own level of awareness and consciousness.

 

 

Then, who is this "I" who is aware of the awareness your mind possesses?

 

Are there two Marbleheads here?

 

Quote

My physical essence (I) was born.  I will die.  So yes, I came into yu (the manifest) out of wu (mystery, potential) and what is this "I" will transmutate and/or return to potential.

 

Again, the totality of what I presently am and have ever been is the who that lives and will die.

 

Perhaps the totality of this sensed 'I-amness' lives and dies, in You.

 

Perhaps, the real You as Pure Absolute Consciousness, cannot even say "I".

[Marblehead]

15 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

Then, who is this "I" who is aware of the awareness your mind possesses?

And who, may I ask, am I having this conversation with?

 

15 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

Are there two Marbleheads here?

Thankfully only one.  And some think it is one too many.

 

15 minutes ago, neti neti said:

Perhaps the totality of this sensed 'I-amness' lives and dies, in You.

No, it's all your fault. It is you who reified me.  If you remember me after I die then I still live on.

 

15 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

Perhaps, the real You as Pure Absolute Consciousness, cannot even say "I".

Pure?  Me?  You gotta' be kidding.  I am muddier than muddy water.  Too mixed to be defined.

 

 

[neti neti]

9 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

And who, may I ask, am I having this conversation with?

 

There's no one else here.

 

Quote

No, it's all your fault. It is you who reified me.  If you remember me after I die then I still live on.

 

I confess. You were never even born.

 

Quote

Pure?  Me?  You gotta' be kidding.  I am muddier than muddy water.  Too mixed to be defined.

 

The potter plays with clay.

Edited August 9, 2017 by neti neti

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Ironically, in the news during the past week two different incidents of a tree falling on someone and killing them.

 

And I agree:  Awareness, Awareness, Awareness!

 

If a tree falls in the woods and the person it falls on didn't hear it fall, do I exist?

[Marblehead]

12 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

There's no one else here.

 

I confess. You were never even born.

 

The potter plays with clay.

What could I possibly say to that response?

 

[Brian]

1 minute ago, Marblehead said:

What could I possibly say to that response?

 

Talking to yourself again?

[neti neti]

Just now, Marblehead said:

What could I possibly say to that response?

 

 

Nothing has ever been spoken.

 

/thread

[liminal_luke]

15 minutes ago, Brian said:

If a tree falls in the woods and the person it falls on didn't hear it fall, do I exist?

 

Yes, you still exist.  The person the tree fell on?  Maybe not.  

[dwai]

6 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Wait a minute!  Are you suggesting that supreme consciousness is such that it wants us all to feel as if we are separate individuals?

 

Maybe, just maybe, if that is true then it is actually true that we are indeed separate individuals.

 

I know that the moon and the Earth are different and separate existences.

 

The feeling of separation is the illusion

why it happens? I don't know. Different theories are abound. But once the separation is  gone, need to answer these questions are gone too. Lao Tzu pretty much said the same thing too...

[wstein]

18 hours ago, neti neti said:

Very good, and yet again, the key point fails to be addressed: The world as perceived and its perceiver are without difference. Unfailingly, the seer insists on pointing, "look, can't you see?", but refuses to reverse his gaze.

 

This is the crux of the subtle nuance drawing one's focus toward... the finger pointing, the moon or the starry night sky... and completely misses the backdrop's substratum in which that wondrous scene is made manifest. "That" is the only "Real", which requires no focus or perception.

 

What is MISSING, is that YOU, the ACTUALITY, focus on reflections between two mirrors rather than the light which makes reflections possible.

 

To say, "I see" anything, is to Not see your Self.

Seems the original quote fails to illuminate much.

 

Indeed the perceiver and the perceived are the same. Direction of the gaze makes no difference.

 

Yet for those who are spirit, neither is 'them'. Spirit has no actuality, actuality is strictly something in the manifest (illusion).

 

In my experience, though one can not 'see' themselves, one can 'know' themselves by reflecting on themselves. What is my nature that I acted that way?

 

[wstein]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

The feeling of separation is the illusion

why it happens? I don't know. Different theories are abound. But once the separation is  gone, need to answer these questions are gone too. Lao Tzu pretty much said the same thing too...

Separation didn't happen, just your misunderstanding.

[neti neti]

11 minutes ago, wstein said:

Seems the original quote fails to illuminate much.

 

Indeed the perceiver and the perceived are the same. Direction of the gaze makes no difference.

 

Yet for those who are spirit, neither is 'them'. Spirit has no actuality, actuality is strictly something in the manifest (illusion).

 

In my experience, though one can not 'see' themselves, one can 'know' themselves by reflecting on themselves. What is my nature that I acted that way?

 

 

It clarifies the pointer for a perceiver's mistaken identity as separate from the perceived. In such a one's case, the direction in which the mind turns is of import. That it lluminates this much, we should agree.

 

Self is without qualities or distinctions. One knows oneself by being oneself.

[neti neti]

23 minutes ago, wstein said:

Separation didn't happen, just your misunderstanding.

 

That's why he said the feeling of separation.

[Marblehead]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

The feeling of separation is the illusion

why it happens? I don't know. Different theories are abound. But once the separation is  gone, need to answer these questions are gone too. Lao Tzu pretty much said the same thing too...

Yeah, but I just can't accept the thought that Hitler is my elder brother.  Sorry, there is a very large separation there.

 

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, wstein said:

Separation didn't happen, just your misunderstanding.

WoW!  So our moon is still attached to Earth?

 

I understand what you are saying, it's just that I disagree.

 

Why else would we be called "The Ten Thousand Things"?

 

[dwai]

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, but I just can't accept the thought that Hitler is my elder brother.  Sorry, there is a very large separation there.

 

Yes this knowledge is hard to accept. So be it.

 

However, it is not merely an intellectual thing. It is a direct knowing, after knowing which, one doesn't need to know anything else or do anything else or go anywhere else. The dropping of the "separation" is also the basis of love (and advise such as "love thy neighbor" and "love thy enemy"). 

 

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Yes this knowledge is hard to accept. So be it.

 

However, it is not merely an intellectual thing. It is a direct knowing, after knowing which, one doesn't need to know anything else or do anything else or go anywhere else. The dropping of the "separation" is also the basis of love (and advise such as "love thy neighbor" and "love thy enemy"). 

 

Hardly anything for me to respond to here.  Well, except for "love thy enemy".  I prefer "know thy enemy".

 

Yeah, if I love my self I should be able to love every one else too.  Right?

 

[wstein]

15 hours ago, Marblehead said:

WoW!  So our moon is still attached to Earth?

 

I understand what you are saying, it's just that I disagree.

 

Don't think you understand. Our Moon is not attached to the Earth. They are one and the same thing (as are you pointing to them as not attached).

Feel free to disagree whether or not you understand.

15 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Why else would we be called "The Ten Thousand Things"?

 

As said, misunderstanding. Even in ordinary situations, things are drastically mislabeled for many reasons: misunderstanding, political gain, lying, ignorance, etc...

[Marblehead]

7 hours ago, wstein said:

 

Don't think you understand. Our Moon is not attached to the Earth. They are one and the same thing (as are you pointing to them as not attached).

Feel free to disagree whether or not you understand.

 

 

As said, misunderstanding. Even in ordinary situations, things are drastically mislabeled for many reasons: misunderstanding, political gain, lying, ignorance, etc...

Well, I have to give you credit for your efforts and feeling that what I said was worth responding to.

 

You are almost correct.  But no, it's not that I don't understand, it is that I don't accept.  There is a difference.

 

And I am aware that this thread is in the "Hindu Discussions" sub-forum, so in all fairness, all of my posts here should be ignored by anyone who feels my comments are out of place.

 

In Christianity some people try to get the lion and the lamb to lie down together in peace and harmony.  The lamb gets eaten every time.

 

Your view is idealistic.  There is value in it.  However, I don't see reality anywhere close to your idealism.  Reality sometimes sucks.

 

[silent thunder]

I don't understand and that's a boon, since it no longer troubles me, or brings tension to not understand.

 

whether I understand or not, things are as they are... (to me, unified beyond meaningful distinctions)

 

Being the path is not knowing it, or understanding it.

[wstein]

10 hours ago, Marblehead said:

You are almost correct.  But no, it's not that I don't understand, it is that I don't accept.  There is a difference.

I stand corrected. I know the difference.
I would never try to force you to accept any answer, even my own.

There is no reason to accept. In this context amidst the separation, there is no 'right' answer.

 

10 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Reality sometimes sucks.

 

You are more of an optimist than I.

 

[wstein]

6 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Being the path is not knowing it, or understanding it.

There is no path other than the steps you took.