Reality vs. Unreality

[3bob]

a catch of returning to the Tao is that who we think we are or have as an individual or particular identity can not go or be taken past the One, for the One keeps all that is within its sphere and which it also owns  (and which is Its due) until even it to returns...    

 

Note:  "...Only Nothing can enter into no-space..." Chapter 43

Edited August 12, 2017 by 3bob

[Jeff]

15 minutes ago, 3bob said:

a catch of returning to the Tao is that who we think we are or have as an individual or particular identity can not go or be taken past the One, for the One keeps all that is within its sphere and which it also owns  (and which is Its due) until even it to returns...    

 

Note:  "...Only Nothing can enter into no-space..." Chapter 43

 

How is this a daoist concept? The One does not own anything or have anything due to it. The one emerges from the Dao, but that is a perception all difference.

[3bob]

Everything that is under The One so to speak is owned by or within its law, thus in that way such everythings also pay their dues to the One per its law, (while the One is under the Tao)  (which is not unlike a "Hindu" teaching that all created beings are under Lord Brahma the creator (which would include and makes the Three by adding aspects of Lords Vishnu and Shiva) - while Lord Brahma is under the Supreme Brahman or "Self"

Edited August 12, 2017 by 3bob

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, 3bob said:

Everything that is under The One so to speak is owned by or within its law, thus in that way such everythings also pay their dues to the One per its law, (while the One is under the Tao)  (which is not unlike a "Hindu" teaching that all created beings are under Lord Brahma the creator (which would include and makes the Three by adding aspects of Lords Vishnu and Shiva) - while Lord Brahma is under the Supreme Brahman or "Self"

 

Got it, so you are describing a Hindu view. I think chapter 21 or the Tao Te Ching more clearly describes the Taoist view on this point regarding your concept of the one and paying it's due...

 

CHAPTER 21  

The greatest virtue is to follow the Dao and only Dao.

Oh unfathomable Dao, ever elusive and intangible.

But yet within, there is substance and form.

It is the essence of the Ten Thousand Things.

This is very real, so here lies a true path to follow.  

It was there at the beginning, as it shall be at the end,

Thus I know the ways of creation.  

 

There is no concept of paying some due to some Lord Brahma or Supreme Brahman (or "One").

[3bob]

if "only Nothing can enter into no space" something was paid, or due or left behind per law (so to speak) before such could happen...

 

 

Edited August 12, 2017 by 3bob

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, 3bob said:

if "only Nothing can enter into no space" something was paid, or due or left behind per law (so to speak) before such could happen...

 

 

 

Could you give some context to your statement? How does this relate to the Dao, or the One? Or where there is any concept of "paying" or "due" in the Tao Te Ching or some Taoist tradition?

 

Again, I see how what you are saying with Hindu views, but just not any Taoist. 

[3bob]

maybe consider chapter 48 in part for the context I'm trying to convey...such is what is due or paid and or left behind.

 

 

[Jeff]

 

CHAPTER 48  

Man's great intelligence is acquired by his ability to learn.

In following the Dao, everyday he must stop learning, and give up whatever he has been taught,

until his mind is open and yielding.

And so, his heart will also be.  

When he becomes full and likened to the Dao, he becomes in tune with the Ten Thousand Things.  

For they are all nearer to the Dao than man.

When man goes back to his natural ways, he will also be in tune with the Dao.  

By doing nothing the World is ruled; everything is left to find its own path.

 

In Daoism, nothing is paid, and no one (or supreme Brahman) to pay. You more let stuff go and flow naturally with the Dao.

[dawei]

6 hours ago, 3bob said:

a catch of returning to the Tao is that who we think we are or have as an individual or particular identity can not go or be taken past the One, for the One keeps all that is within its sphere and which it also owns  (and which is Its due) until even it to returns...    

 

Note:  "...Only Nothing can enter into no-space..." Chapter 43

 

This line goes:

3. 無 有 入 無 間 ，

3. wu2 you3 ru4 wu2 jian1,

 

I have said elsewhere, 6 years ago here:

 

"When you connect to Unity, there is no need to distinguish between the 'have' (you) and 'have not' (wu). There is not form (wu you) and no space (wu jian); there is simply penetrating the source.

 

Following this idea, I came up with a thought which is that once you truly 'Wu Wei', then 'Wu' and 'You' are indistinguishable (無有入無間)."

 

Now, 6 years later, I see this to mean:  "Once indistinguishable, there is nothing [no gate] to enter"

[3bob]

"to win the world one must renounce all"  Chap 48... that is an important part of the payment due (so to speak) and lets face it only an extremely few number of beings are devoted to being re-nunciates, many of us would rather be super-duper,  3rd eye seeing and kundalini empowered masters of the universe. 

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, 3bob said:

"to win the world one must renounce all"  Chap 48... that is an important part of the payment due (so to speak) and lets face it only an extremely few number of beings are devoted to being re-nunciates, many of us would rather be super-duper,  3rd eye seeing and kundalini empowered masters of the universe. 

 

Maybe it is just some translation issue, but there is no "world to win", and through the world may have many power crazed re-nunciates, that has nothing to do with the teachings of Lao Zi and the Tao Te Ching. In his teachings, there is no toll to be paid to some super duper Brahman God type, no due to be given as a tax to the "One" which restricts access to the Dao unless you do. Things like this may exist in various Hindu traditions, but not in the TTC. In returning to the natural state, it is as the Tao Te Ching describes...

 

CHAPTER 16  

Empty the mind of everything, let it reside in peace.  

Being at peace you can watch the Ten Thousand Things rise and fall.  

They follow their natural path and eventually return to the source of all things. This is the way of Nature.  

Returning to the source is stillness, for Nature is unchanging.  

Knowing this constancy is having insight into all things. Not knowing this leads to disaster.  

Knowing the source, the mind is open. When the mind is open the heart will be open too.

Being open hearted, you can act naturally. Acting naturally, you will be at one with the Dao.

Being at one with the Dao, you will be at one with Heaven and Earth.

Being at one with Heaven and Earth, you can become eternal.  

Although the body dies, the Dao will always be eternal. 

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, 3bob said:

"to win the world one must renounce all"  Chap 48... that is an important part of the payment due (so to speak) and lets face it only an extremely few number of beings are devoted to being re-nunciates, many of us would rather be super-duper,  3rd eye seeing and kundalini empowered masters of the universe. 

I have no goal of being super-duper but I would have a serious problem if I attempted to "renounce all".

 

 

[dwai]

6 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I have no goal of being super-duper but I would have a serious problem if I attempted to "renounce all".

 

 

The renunciation that happens from not attaching to mind-stuff is the easiest and best renunciation. That is freedom too

[Marblehead]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

The renunciation that happens from not attaching to mind-stuff is the easiest and best renunciation. That is freedom too

I'm doing pretty good regarding freedom except for governments.  They are so invasive!

 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I'm doing pretty good regarding freedom except for governments.  They are so invasive!

 

When you are truly free, nothing can bind you

[Marblehead]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

When you are truly free, nothing can bind you

I know, I know!

 

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.  But I don't want it to be governments that have caused me to lose everything.

 

But I live in this material world so materialism is a focal point for my life.  Not the only focal point, but important none-the-less.

 

Unreality would be for me to say that it doesn't matter how much of my material worth they take from me.

 

 

[Brian]

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Brian

[Marblehead]

She's not the only one.

 

[neti neti]

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I know, I know!

 

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.  But I don't want it to be governments that have caused me to lose everything.

 

But I live in this material world so materialism is a focal point for my life.  Not the only focal point, but important none-the-less.

 

Unreality would be for me to say that it doesn't matter how much of my material worth they take from me.

 

It's "unreal" to entertain that someone out there can relieve me of anything of true value. Ironically, it isn't until one "loses everything" that freedom is known. Realizing one owns nothing in this world is to shake off the shackles.

 

All is Self alone, fearlessly free. Abiding in Self is to know one has need of nothing, without doubts. Thus one gives all, and all that's required is infallibly provided. Oh Maya!

Edited August 14, 2017 by neti neti

[dwai]

1 minute ago, neti neti said:

 

It's "unreal" to entertain that someone out there can relieve me of anything of true value. Ironically, it isn't until one "loses everything" that freedom is known. Realizing one owns nothing in this world is to shake off the shackles.

 

All is Self alone...the fearlessness of freedom inherent. Abiding in Self is to know one has need of nothing, without doubts. Thus one gives all, and all that's required is infallibly provided. Oh Maya!

Maya or Lila...same thing but one is half-empty and the other half-full perspective 

 

[neti neti]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Maya or Lila...same thing but one is half-empty and the other half-full perspective 

 

 

There is no Maya. Oh Lila!

[neti neti]

 

Quote

Ramana Maharshi on Creation

Sri Ramana adopted three different standpoints when he spoke about the nature of the physical world. He advocated all of them at different times but it is clear from his general comments on the subject that he only considered the first two theories given below to be either true or useful.

 

1. Ajata vada or the theory of non-causality. This is an ancient Hindu doctrine which states that the creation of the world never happened at all. It is a complete denial of all causality in the physical world.

Sri Ramana endorsed this view by saying that it is the jnani's (Man who is Self-realised) experience that nothing ever comes into existence or ceases to be because the Self alone exists as the sole unchanging reality. It is a corollary of this theory that time, space, cause and effect, essential components of all creation theories, exist only in the minds of ajnanis (ignorant) and that the experience of the Self reveals their non-existence.

 

This theory is not a denial of the reality of the world, only of the creative process which brought it into existence. Speaking from his own experience Sri Ramana said that the jnani is aware that the world is real, not as an assemblage of interacting matter and energy, but as an uncaused appearance in the Self. He enlarged on this by saying that because the real nature or substratum of this appearance is identical with the beingness of the Self, it necessarily partakes of its reality. That is to say, the world is not real to the jnani simply because it appears, but only because the real nature of the appearance is inseparable from the Self.

 

The ajnani on the other hand, is totally unaware of the unitary nature and source of the world and, as a consequence, his mind constructs an illusory world of separate interacting objects by persistently misinterpreting the sense-impressions it receives. Sri Ramana pointed out that this view of the world has no more reality than a dream since it superimposes a creation of the mind on the reality of the Self. He summarised the difference between the jnani's and the ajnani's standpoint by saying that the world is unreal if it is perceived by the mind as a collection of discrete objects and real when it is directly experienced as an appearance in the Self.

 

2. Drishti-srishti vada. If his questioners found the idea of ajata or non-causality impossible to assimilate, he would teach them that the world comes into existence simultaneously with the appearance of the `I' –thought and that it ceases to exist when the `I' –thought is absent. This theory is known as drishti-srishti, or simultaneous creation, and it says, in effect, that the world which appears to an ajnani is a product of the mind that perceives it, and that in the absence of that mind it ceases to exist. The theory is true in so far as the mind does create an imaginary world for itself, but from the standpoint of the Self, an imaginary `I' creating an imaginary world is no creation at all, and so the doctrine of ajata is not subverted.

Although Sri Ramana sometimes said that drishti-srishti was not the ultimate truth about creation he encouraged his followers to accept it as a working hypothesis. He justified this approach by saying that if one can consistently regard the world as an unreal creation of the mind then it loses its attraction and it becomes easier to maintain an undistracted awareness of the `I'-thought.

 

3. Srishti-drishti vada (gradual creation). This is the common-sense view which holds that the world is an objective reality governed by laws of cause and effect which can be traced back to a single act of creation. It includes virtually all western ideas on the subject from `big bang' theory to the biblical account in Genesis. Sri Ramana invoked theories of this nature when he was talking to questioners who were unwilling to accept the implications of the ajata and drishti-srishti theories. Even then, he would usually point out that such theories should not be taken too seriously as they were only promulgated to satisfy intellectual curiosity.

 

Literally, drishti-srishti means that the world only exists when it is perceived whereas srishti-drishti means that the world existed prior to anyone's perception of it. Although the former theory sounds perverse, Sri Ramana insisted that serious seekers should be satisfied with it, partly because it is a close approximation to the truth and partly because it is the most beneficial attitude to adopt if one is seriously interested in realising the Self.

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by neti neti

[neti neti]

Quote

Question: How has srishti (creation) come about? Some say it is predestined. Others say it the Lord's leela or sport. What is the truth?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Various accounts are given in books. But is there creation? Only if there is creation do we have to explain how it came about. We may not know about all these theories but we certainly know that we exist. Why not know the '`I'' and then see if there is a creation?

 

Question: In the Vedanta of Sri Sankaracharya the principle of the creation of the world has been accepted for the sake of beginners, but for the advanced the principle of non-creation is put forward. What is your view on this matter?

Maharshi: "There is no dissolution or creation, no one in bondage, nor anyone pursuing spiritual practices. There is no one desiring liberation nor anyone liberated. This is the absolute truth."

This sloka (verse) appears in the second chapter of Gaudapada's Karika. One who is established in the Self sees this by his knowledge of reality.

 

Question: Is not the Self the cause of this world we see around us?

Maharshi: Self itself appears as the world of diverse names and forms. However, Self does not act as the efficient cause (nimitta karana), creating, sustaining and destroying it.

Do not ask `Why does the confusion of Self, not knowing the truth that it itself appears as the world arise?' If instead you enquire `To whom does this confusion occur?', it will be discovered that no such confusion ever existed for Self.

 

Questioner: You seem to be an exponent of ajata doctrine of advaita Vedanta.

Maharshi: I do not teach only the ajata doctrine. I approve of all schools. The same truth has to be expressed in different ways to suit the capacity of the hearer.

The Ajata doctrine says, `Nothing exists except the one reality. There is no birth or death, no projection or drawing in, no seeker, no bondage, no liberation. The one unity alone exists.'

To such as find it difficult to grasp this truth and who ask, `How can we ignore this solid world we see all around us?', the dream experience is pointed out and they are told, `All that you see depends on the seer. Apart from the seer, there is no seen.'

This is called the drishti-srishti vada or the argument that one first creates out of one's mind and then sees what one's mind itself has created. Some people cannot grasp even this and they continue to argue in the following terms:

`The dream experience is so short, while the world always exists. The dream experience was limited to me. But the world is felt and seen not only by me, but by so many others. We cannot call such a world non-existent.'

When people argue in this way they can be given a srishti-drishti theory, for example, `God first created such and such a thing, out of such and such an element, and then something else was created, and so on.' That alone will satisfy this class. Their minds are otherwise not satisfied and they ask themselves, `How can all geography, all maps, all sciences, stars, planets and the rules governing or relating to them and all knowledge be totally untrue?' To such it is best to say, `Yes, God created all this and so you see it.'

 

Question: But all these cannot be true. Only one doctrine can be true.

Sri Ramana Maharshi: All these theories are only to suit the capacity of the learner. The absolute can only be one.

The Vedanta says that the cosmos springs into view simultaneously with the seer and that there is no detailed process of creation. This is said to be yugapat-srishti (instantaneous creation). It is quite similar to the creations in dream where the experiencer springs up simultaneously with the objects of experience.

When this is told, some people are not satisfied for they are deeply rooted in objective knowledge. They seek to find out how there can be sudden creation. They argue that an effect must be preceded by a cause. In short, they desire an explanation for the existence of the world which they see around them. Then the srutis (scriptures) try to satisfy their curiosity by theories of creation.

This method of dealing with the subject of creation is called krama-srishti (gradual creation). But the true seeker can be content with yugapat-srishti, instantaneous creation.

 

There may be any number of theories of creation. All of them extend outwardly. There will be no limit to them because time and space are unlimited. They are however only in the mind. If you see the mind, time and space are transcended and the Self is realised.

Creation is explained scientifically or logically to one's own satisfaction. But is there any finality about it? Such explanations are called krama-srishti (gradual creation). On the other hand, drishti-srishti (simultaneous creation) is yugapat-srishti. Without the seer there are no objects seen. Find the seer and the creation is comprised in him. Why look outward and go on explaining the phenomena which are endless?

 

Where are you now? Are you in the world or is the world within you? You must admit that the world is not perceived in your sleep although you cannot deny your existence then. The world appears when you wake up. So where is it? Clearly the world is your thought. Thoughts are your projections. The "I" is first created and then the world. The world is created by the "I" which in its turn rises up from the Self. The riddle of the creation of the world is thus solved if you solve the creation of the "I". So I say, find your Self.

 

Again, does the world come and ask you `Why do "I" exist? How was "I" created?' It is you who ask the question. The questioner must establish the relationship between the world and himself. He must admit that the world is his own imagination. Who imagines it? Let him again find the "I" and then the Self.

Moreover, all the scientific and theological explanations do not harmonise. The diversities in such theories clearly show the uselessness of seeking such explanations. Such explanations are purely mental and intellectual and nothing more. Still, all of them are true according to the standpoint of the individual.

There is no creation in the state of realisation. When one sees the world, one does not see oneself. When one sees the Self, the world is not seen. So see the Self and realise that there has been no creation.

 

Question: "Brahman is real. The world is illusion" is the stock phrase of Sri Sankaracharya. Yet others say, "The world is reality." Which is true?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Both statements are true. They refer to different stages of development and are spoken from different points of view. The aspirant starts with the definition, that which is real exists always. Then he eliminates the world as unreal because it is changing. The seeker ultimately reaches the Self and there finds unity as the prevailing note. Then, that which was originally rejected as being unreal is found to be a part of the unity. Being absorbed in the reality, the world also is real. There is only being in Self-realisation, and nothing but being.

 

Question: Sri Bhagavan (Ramana Maharshi) often says that Maya (illusion) and reality are the same. How can that be?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Sankara was criticised for his views on Maya without being understood. He said that

1. Brahman is real, 2. The universe is unreal, and 3. The universe is Brahman.

He did not stop at the second, because the third explains the other two. It signifies that the universe is real if perceived as the Self, and unreal if perceived apart from the Self. Hence Maya and reality are one and the same.

 

Question: So the world is not really illusory?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: At the level of the spiritual seeker you have got to say that the world is an illusion. There is no other way. When a man forgets that he is a Brahman, who is real, permanent and omnipresent, and deludes himself into thinking that he is a body in the universe which is filled with bodies that are transitory, and labours under that delusion, you have got to remind him that the world is unreal and a delusion. Why? Because his vision which has forgotten its own Self is dwelling in the external, material universe. It will not turn inwards into introspection unless you impress on him that all this external material universe is unreal. When once he realises his own Self he will know that there is nothing other than his own Self and he will come to look upon the whole universe as Brahman.

There is no universe without the Self. So long as a man does not see the Self which is the origin of all, but looks only at the external world as real and permanent, you have to tell him that all this external universe is an illusion. You cannot help it. Take a paper. We see only the script, and nobody notices the paper on which the script is written. The paper is there whether the script on it is there or not. To those who look upon the script as real, you have to say that it is unreal, an illusion, since it rests upon the paper. The wise man looks upon both the paper and script as one. So also with Brahman and the universe.

 

Question: So the world is real when it is experienced as the Self and unreal when it is seen as separate names and forms?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Just as fire is obscured by smoke, the shining light of consciousness is obscured by the assemblage of names and forms, the world. When by compassionate divine grace the mind becomes clear, the nature of the world will be known to be not the illusory forms but only the reality.

Only those people whose minds are devoid of the evil power of Maya, having given up the knowledge of the world and being unattached to it, and having thereby attained the knowledge of the self-shining Supreme Reality, can correctly know the meaning of the statement "The world is real." If one's outlook has been transformed to the nature of real knowledge, the world of the five elements beginning with space (akasha) will be real, being the Supreme Reality, which is the nature of knowledge.

The original state of this empty world, which is bewildering and crowded with many names and forms, is bliss, which is one, just as the egg-yolk of a multi-coloured peacock is only one. Know this truth by abiding in the state of Self.

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by neti neti

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, neti neti said:

 

It's "unreal" to entertain that someone out there can relieve me of anything of true value. Ironically, it isn't until one "loses everything" that freedom is known. Realizing one owns nothing in this world is to shake off the shackles.

 

All is Self alone, fearlessly free. Abiding in Self is to know one has need of nothing, without doubts. Thus one gives all, and all that's required is infallibly provided. Oh Maya!

Oh My is right.

 

I have worked too hard for the things I have.  We can even say that they are a part of me because I gave a part of me in order to attain those things in an honest way.

 

Sure, if one has already attained the spirit realm then one needs nothing.  I'm not there yet.  I still live on planet Earth where few are concerned with my welfare so it is up to me to make sure my physical welfare is attended to.

 

 

[neti neti]

18 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Oh My is right.

 

I have worked too hard for the things I have.  We can even say that they are a part of me because I gave a part of me in order to attain those things in an honest way.

 

Sure, if one has already attained the spirit realm then one needs nothing.  I'm not there yet.  I still live on planet Earth where few are concerned with my welfare so it is up to me to make sure my physical welfare is attended to.

 

Surely, our sense of accomplishment or attainments may seem to give us meaning and purpose. One could even argue that the living of life righteously is gain in and of itself.

 

But really, the boons of your labor were always yours. Gain or loss, the ebb and flow of this world comes and goes. You are the constant, already "there", wherever that is.

 

As one persistently concerns themselves with That, one discovers their concerns are miraculously taken care of.