Reality vs. Unreality

[wstein]

8 hours ago, Nothingness said:

If you faint now, became unconscious into a 'deep sleep state' and you (that mind-personality) never wake up again, you will never be able to say 'things remained'. Only if you (that personality-mind) wakes up again, can you say 'I think things remained while I was unconscious'. 

If by 'say' you mean speak through the body, then yes, correct.

If by 'say' you mean communicate, then yes correct.

Saying is not relevant to existence, it is only valuable for communication to others.

Similarly, thinking things is not relevant to existence.

Ditto for knowing.

 

Tell me how do you know you remain if you are unaware?

To know you remain you have to be aware that you remain, else you wouldn't know you remained. 

Also, how do you know that 'other things' are also able to remain when you are unaware of them? 

You say that because the mind, at a later time, rises up again (as in waking) and you say 'things existed when I was unaware of them'.

You don't know if you are unaware. Well technically you might still know but are unaware that you know (unable to access that knowledge). That does not mean you don't remain, It just means you don't 'know'. You can still experience, live, exist, create. Its those experiences that awareness takes and turns into knowing when you 'wake up'.

 

Its really hard to explain being in the parts of reality where experience is not possible (thus no knowing). It feels very mental (though in actuality is consciousness). Its a sea of concepts and potentials, all 'possibilities' yet nothing actually 'happens'. There is no need to actually know anything as the possibilities are simply there (at once). Why know something when the original 'it' is there?

That would be like looking at the brochure of Disneyland while standing in Disneyland. One could stand around reading the marketing material or one could simply go on the rides. The brochure is like the knowing, you can know all that Disneyland offers. Still, you can enjoy Disneyland (which remains) without the brochure. What remains independent of awareness or knowing is the enjoyment. Still true that without awareness you don't know that you enjoyed Disneyland. However there is no need, that enjoyment is simply present with you.

 

[silent thunder]

reality and unreality has been a cornerstone topic for much of the seeking in my life.  probably because my first memory in this life was a dream... a nightmare really.  a nightmare so profoundly terrifying it brought about my second memory of an out of body experience...

 

due to the nature of this first memory of my life, i've always been rather obsessed with the variety of conscious states and the nature of what we call reality.

 

and dreaming is always at the center of my suspicion about the fluidity of reality.  dreaming, lucid dreaming and waking dreaming and the nature of awareness and self awareness always hover near when its on my mind.  bear with me as i try and share my obsessive suspicion about the nature of the reality of dreams, or the relative unreality of the 'manifest' waking world... or just skip my words, but know no matter what, i'm not stating facts here, this wonderful conversation has motivated me to try and share this one more time, because it seems to fit the topic.

 

 

one aspect i've always found exceptionally intriguing and of vital importance to the nature of reality cornerstones on the seeming fact that my memories of dream experiences can be just as vivid as those i form in the waking world.  and my ability to learn about myself through my reactions to scenarios in dreams can teach me just as much about my essential nature, as lessons learned in the waking world.  because of this, there is quite a bit of reality to me in dreams... when they can reveal truth about my nature and impact me in memory.  not to mention the fact that dreams are often not recognized as dreams until i waken in them, or until i wake physically, but when in the dream, it's always real.

 

second aspect is that my method of becoming consciously aware in this life, my earliest conscious memories of becoming aware of myself, mirrors exactly the manner in which i become lucid in dreams. 

 

when i become lucid in a dream, the dream is already in motion, the setting of the dream, the scenario and the players are in mid action, as was i moments before becoming lucid... when something triggers my awareness and i 'wake up' in the dream, only then do i realize the nature of that level of reality... but my lucidity does not start as the dream starts, i become aware in mid dream when something triggers my personal awareness.  the tibetans talk about the layers of dreaming.  the san bushmen talk about it.  the australian aboriginal people still carry a vivid connection to the Dream Time and all speak openly about the dream like nature of our shared waking life dream.

 

coming to consciousness in my 'real' waking life was the same as coming to lucidity in dreams.  my first recollections in this life were several years into my body's presence and my conscious awareness came online one evening while asleep ironically enough. 

 

ok so with that set up, here are my first three memories in this life:

 

my first memory in this life is a dream. 

i did not know it was a dream, nor did i know there was such a thing as dreaming.  i simply became aware i was doing something i loved.  i was sliding down our carpeted stairs on my bum... diggity diggity diggity, flump to the bottom.  then scamper up and do it again. 

 

so the memory starts as i'm in mid falump, already going down the stairs.  as i reached the bottom landing the dream and looked into the washroom, the dream turned instantly into a nightmare so profoundly terrifying that it spawned my second memory in life, which is that of an out of body experience.

 

i was 3-4 when i dreamt it.  my mother said we moved out of that house a couple months after my 4th birthday.

 

the stairs ended in a hallway that went right and left.  right was the den, left was the washroom.

 

from shadows behind the water heater, in the far corner of the room stepped a black hooded man holding a two handed axe.  he began walking toward me with intense, loud footfalls.

 

i turned in horror and began to clamber up the steps.  and as i approached the top step... i slipped and begane to slide backward on my belly.  hands outstretched, scrambling to stop myself... i could feel and smell the musty carpet sliding under my hands.

 

the footfalls of the headsman growing louder as i slid down toward the landing.  in my mind i knew that the moment i hit the landing, he would arrive and swing the axe.

 

as i approached the landing... in pure, raw desperation... with the full focus of awareness on 'getting out of this'.  

 

i shifted

 

there was a moment of reorientation.  the stairs were gone.  the headsman was gone

and i was hovering, massless over the bed of a small boy with a mass of red hair.

this is my second memory.  looking down at my own sleeping body but not knowing it for a few lingering moments.

 

all traces of fear were gone.  there was simply a bit of shock and a processing of what was being 'seen'.

 

i looked down at a sleeping boy with big red hair.  something struck... conversations about red hair and praise from adults...

 

"is that me?" i asked silently and pop!

 

i opened my eyes and was looking up at the ceiling at the spot i had just been peering down on my body from moments before.

 

my third memory was 'what was that?'

 

for a long while this memory was relegated to the non essential disregarded portion of memory but something triggered me to recall it in my teen years and from then on... my obsession with exploring the myriad varieties of conscious states was born, and thus began my lifelong pursuit of entheogens, breathing methods, mild self asphyxiation, meditation and, on occasion, street drugs.

 

reality versus unreality

 

what neti neti and many of you have shared in this conversation resonates... but particularly neti neti's two quotes, as well as much of the dream philosophy i've read from the tibetans, resonate with my experience of awareness and the nature of reality/unreality.

 

the i thought and the experience of reality/Self/Brahman co-arise simultaneously and that is why any notion of a creator of clay models and the universe as an automated machine made by some grand architect have never passed my gut/taste test. 

 

anyway, enough rambling, i'll wrap this up... ever since that recall in my teen years, all through the countless lucid dreams i've had my entire conscious life, and often in my waking life i have this incessant presence in my mind, this nagging suspicion that all awareness of self.other.yin.yang.the ten thousand... is very dreamlike.

 

it has given rise to the following notion

 

I feel inherently

that one moment

I will awaken within the 'real world'

in the same manner

                                                                              
that I become lucid

during the dream state

a multitude of times.

[Marblehead]

If something disappears when we regain consciousness it wasn't real.

 

[neti neti]

32 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

If something disappears when we regain consciousness it wasn't real.

 

 

Night of the Living... Thread? 

 

Hey Marblehead! I can do that too.

 

If the waking world disappears when we lose consciousness it wasn't real.

[Marblehead]

5 minutes ago, neti neti said:

If the waking world disappears when we lose consciousness it wasn't real.

You done good.

 

However,

 

Just because it disappeared for you doesn't mean it disappeared for anyone else.  They see you when you are unconscious even though you can't see them.

 

[neti neti]

16 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

You done good.

 

However,

 

Just because it disappeared for you doesn't mean it disappeared for anyone else.  They see you when you are unconscious even though you can't see them.

 

But what if there is no real loss or gain of consciousness? What if I neither wake nor dream, nor sleep? What if consciousness just happens to me?

 

What if, I'm aware throughout all of its changing states? If consciousness seems to appear and disappear in me... is it "unreal"?

Edited August 23, 2018 by neti neti

[Marblehead]

4 minutes ago, neti neti said:

But what if there is no real loss or gain of consciousness? What if I neither wake nor dream, nor sleep? What if consciousness just happens to me?

In a case such as this I would say you are taking too many drugs.  Leave the freakin' drugs alone!

 

[Marblehead]

5 minutes ago, neti neti said:

What if, I'm aware throughout all of its changing states? If consciousness seems to appear and disappear in me... is it "unreal"?

Again, might be a drug induced state.

 

Then too, perhaps there is something about your sleep in that you don't lose total consciousness into sleep.  I don't know if this is possible in humans but it is in some other animals on the planet.

 

 

But then, I can go back to something I said before in that our dreams, while dreaming, are real for us even though they are not real for anyone else.

 

 

Consciousness (and its reality) is a tricky concept to discuss.  This is because I know that it is possible to be totally awake but yet be unconscious of anything that is going on around us.  Some natural, some drug induced.

 

 

[neti neti]

What if I'm just high on consciousness? 

[neti neti]

Consciousness is one helluva drug. 

[Marblehead]

9 minutes ago, neti neti said:

What if I'm just high on consciousness? 

Then repeat it as often as you can.

 

[Marblehead]

7 minutes ago, neti neti said:

Consciousness is one helluva drug. 

Indeed it is.  We get to see the true reality of life.  Not always a pretty picture.  Sometimes worse than our worst dreams.

 

[neti neti]

Consider how one appears in a dream. The dream world was already happening.

 

If I'm convinced the waking world does not disappear for "others" as I dream, is it unreasonable to assume the dream world also persists when I'm "awake"? Do "they" of the dream world see me as "unconscious" once I've "awoken?"

 

If when I'm "awake" the world appears as if it were a dream, is there any difference between their appearances?

 

If I perceive no differences, what does real or unreal even mean?

Edited August 23, 2018 by neti neti

[3bob]

Om is a two way street.

[dwai]

Because of our everyday experiences we assume that the waking body is the "real" one, the dream body only in our imagination and the body rests (mind hibernates) in deep sleep. But what if there is a deep sleep body (Causal body) that is merged into nescience, and from it arises a subtle body (dream world) and subsequently it solidifies further into a physical body (waking world)?

 

What if what we consider to be the primary envelope of living/experiencing is actually just a side-effect of a larger envelope of reality in a much vaster dimension?

 

[rideforever]

There is no such thing as not real or illusion or non existent.   

 

If someone says "time is not real", well it sounds very impressive but what does it actually mean ?   It takes time to go to the bathroom; are you saying that you are not going to go to the bathroom any more ?   Well of course you are.   So your actions bear no relation to your mouth.

 

Time is the degeneration of matter that we all witness.   And you can explore it more as well.   Don't stop there.   Using the "not real"words just means you are not interested or perhaps you don't understand you can be interested.

 

Often when somebody uses these expressions what it means is that they are experiences something deeper : something beyond time for instance.   But they do not experience it very well, so can only talk about it in a negative way.    If they experience it well they would say "I experience my soul that exists outside space-time".

 

Also the relationship between conceptual intelligence and existence can be explored.

 

For instance, if you have learnt a route up a mountain and memorised it (concept) then you walk up the mountain .... this is the right way to use your conceptual intelligence.    

Problem > Conceptual Solution > Action > Conclusion

 

You might conclude that your concepts were not very good, and improve them.   Therefore you learn and your intelligence grows.

 

In this era concepts are often not used for action, people talk and talk like spraying sperm around.   It is masturbation.   It feels really good to talk, but then it does not really feel very good afterwards because you did nothing.   In fact it is a serious leak of energy to be like this and it weakens your spirit.   Masturbation is a kind of hopeless suicide.

 

Two people might talk about "I Am That".   One person in this deep state and his words carry on them the feeling of deep reality.   Another is a donkey-parrot who repeats them from a book.   And is like the empty pouring into the void, and it can be painful to hear the nothing.

 

So :

- be interested, investigate, enjoy learning, challenge yourself

- problem > solution > action > conclusion

- speak-real, of things you know and are

- don't masturbate your thinking and bleed energy

- take the risk to decide on something, take a stand, and make conclusions -(working conclusions,) and go from there - it is the only way to learn

 

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by rideforever

[wstein]

When a world (dreaming or awake) disappears, it is really hard to know if it is gone or you are merely failing to perceive it. Perhaps it is YOU that no longer exists.

[neti neti]

7 hours ago, wstein said:

When a world (dreaming or awake) disappears, it is really hard to know if it is gone or you are merely failing to perceive it. Perhaps it is YOU that no longer exists.

In all worlds, nothing truly comes or goes. The very desire to know acts as a veil upon true perception( no perceiving ).

 

One has never existed as one imagines, for what one is is simply unimaginable.

[neti neti]

On 8/23/2018 at 11:20 AM, rideforever said:

Problem > Conceptual Solution > Action > Conclusion

 

Maybe it's more like:

 

Conceptualizing causes one to conclude they are the doer of actions, and that's the Problem.

 

Perhaps there was never any problem whatsoever.

Edited August 24, 2018 by neti neti

[rideforever]

20 minutes ago, neti neti said:

Conceptualizing causes one to conclude they are the doer of actions, and that's the Problem.

 

That is the problem.
And the other problem is that it's true.

 

I can see !

... No you can't
I am thinking in my head, I can do thinking !
.... No, you don't exist.
I can shake my hips, look they shake !
... No, it's arising dependently.
I can fly a plane like the birds.
... No, it's the skandas.
I can stuff my face with tacos !
... No, you must crush your individuality..
I can compute quadratic equations !
... No, I am not here and neither are you.
I can groove like Little Richard !

... Noooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!

 

 

 

[rideforever]

Ordinary Ego vs Spiritual Ego

 

I am not good enough.
They are better than me.
I will never measure up.
I am not good enough.

 

I don't ego.
I never existed.
I can't exist.
Nobody exists.

[3bob]

if one accepts that various forms of energy are real although in flux or going through changes yet are all ultimately from and connected through and to the Source of energy then there can be no unreality per-se, including any profound thoughts or shut down of thoughts about it which are also forms of energy bouncing around in someone's brain/mind which is also a form of energy etc...

Edited August 24, 2018 by 3bob

[rideforever]

From the point of view of the individuated-soul-that-has-its-own-intelligence .... he might conclude that a concept does not correspond to how he experiences reality, nor how others report their experience of reality.   That concept is "not real" meaning does not correspond to my reality.  And that is all fine, and above board.

 

However a second case is where you meet someone with "loosh" energy who emits an unpleasant energy whilst using concepts.   Their concepts and reasoning smells bad and feels bad, because that person is being used by dark energy to spread that dark energy like a disease.   Creating emotional tethers, negativity, hopelessness, division, hatred and so on.   Their ideas are "not real" meaning something below board is happening when he uses concepts.

 

Sometimes this happens when a person is trying to use their mind and has had little intellectual training.  That person my try to take a position, or make big claims, and so on.   And it's all reasonably innocent and a learning process.

 

At school the correct use of the mind is replaced with hammering rubbish into people's heads, whilst telling the students what good little robots they are.   This mixes emotional energy with the wrong use of the mind.

 

The mass media has created in many people a very stinking type of reasoning, for instance often sexual energy is redirected into the mind, in order to make exciting thinking ... which internally is an extreme malfunction.   Many people have tremendous mental chaos because of this re-routing of other energies into the mind.   The result is mental trauma and fragmentation leading to splits of personality that often go completely unnoticed.   A society suffering PTSD.

And, people who are damaged tend to damage others, and they seek out vulnerable people and young people to find an easy place to make-themselves-feel-better-by-unloading-on-someone-else.    Hence many groups in the world want to influence the young people, and talk proudly of it at the UN.

 

Eventually society cannot agree on simple things, or determine their own gender, or whether they exist or not.

 

The re-routing of sexual or emotional (or other) energies .... is a sugared pill to influence you to accept the wrong use of the mind into you, and the leeching of your energy.   A pill you must refuse if you wish to continue to exist.

 

Simple activities in the natural environment are very grounding for the mind.

 

Values are often talking about today and I think it is strangely related.   A good mind is that which can do, can reason, can accomplish practical tasks, can achieve goals, can create solutions, can help the being.   The damaged minds in today's culture can not.   Conservative values are based on pro-active and principled confident action, which is a hallmark of a good mind.   Leftist values are based on a fearful view of life and are possibly the result of a damaged mind.   A mind that is damaged cannot do things, cannot make things work, cannot comprehend what to do, therefore seeks the shelter of an imagined collective utopia that never seems to materialize.   But what about the "love" aspect of the leftists ?  Well, perhaps the unhappy conclusion is that the Hollywood love that is shoved in our face is really just more parasiting of the emotional or sexual energy, and is not love at all.

Edited August 24, 2018 by rideforever

[3bob]

the '4th way" really screws people up, as if they and such are profound...

Edited August 24, 2018 by 3bob

[neti neti]

The "individual" is the primal concept, identical to the reflection that is "mind." However our common identity is prior to that mind which imagines itself split, thus even self-discovery is as a mirage in the desert of the notional. Consciousness is an illusion.

 

Disdain for self-perpetrated fraud is irony epitomized, but it sure makes for an exceptionally comical plot twist.

 

"You" are what you think "they" are.

 

Edited August 25, 2018 by neti neti