Need some guidance with semen retention, full body orgasm / the microcosmic orbit

[seby223]

Hello Everybody!

 

Wow am I every glad i found this forum! from what i've read so far it is a beautiful resource filled with beautiful helpful people. Nice to see after spending a little to much time on reddit lol.

 

A bit about me: I have always been "spiritual" lets say. Never bought into my catholic upbringing and the such. After a few experiences with psychedelic drugs I became interested in meditation, yoga and generally eastern religions and their mentalities and views on life and existence (mostly buddhism and jainism). I now have a daily yoga and meditation practice. Nothing huge, just 2 sets of sun salutations followed by 20 minutes or so of isha kriya meditation.

 

I am posting today because I have been practicing the material from mantak chia's book on sexuality. My motivations for this in the beginning were very ego driven: i simply was jealous of the orgasms my girlfriends were having, and wanted more from my 3-5 second burst of an ejaculation. Now after 2 months or so of (not to successful) practice, I realize it is not solely about the pleasure of an orgasm, but the deeper understanding of ones of sexuality, and a more healthy control over it (eg, not ogling every nice girl that walks by).

 

I have been doing the cool draw daily, but not too sure if I am getting anywhere. I don't really feel a tingling or energy like described, only like, a "fullness" or presence, imagine molasses travelling around the body. It seems i can kinda tell where the energy is, but its not a real sensation so I am not really sure if it is what I feel, or placebo. Im not sure what I am supposed to feel, or if what I am feeling is correct, but that's just my bodies own expression of sexual energy (were all different!).

 

I have also been doing the big draw, and seem to be making a little progress there. I definitely feel more when self cultivating, but when thing start feeling nice they do not really travel up the spine at all, and it crest over into ejaculation. Albeit the ejaculation is a little more pleasurable, it is just as short and underwhelming. I keep reading in many places of these incredible, energetic whole body orgasms, and would like to get there, but I seem to need a little more guidance than mantak chia's books are offering.

 

Also I am unsure when I should put my tongue to the roof of my mouth, throughout a sexual experience (with my self or otherwise) or only afterwards to bring the energy back down from my head?

 

Have any of you achieved this? Any tips or experiences you would like to share? Anything at all is well appreciated  thanks!

[Marblehead]

Hello seby223, and welcome.

 

Your membership is approved and we're happy you found your way to us. We look forward to accompanying you on some of the way that you still have to go.

 

Please take the time to read the post pinned at the top of this Welcome page and take a look at the forum Terms and Rules.   This covers all you need to know when getting started.

 

For the first week you will be restricted to ten posts per day but after that you can post as much as you like. Also, until you’ve posted fifteen times in the forums, you’ll be a “Junior Bum” with somewhat restricted access and will be allowed only two private messages per day.

 

Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you,

 

Marblehead and the TDB team

 

 

Hi seby,

 

I don't talk about that stuff you mentioned as being of interest to you but there are many here who do.  I'm sure you will find many threads/conversations of interest.

 

You are welcome to jump right in ongoing discussions, revive an older thread, start a new thread of your own, or start a discussion in the "Newcomer Corner" sub-forms to expand on your introduction or ask general questions to help you get started.

 

May you enjoy your time here.

 

Marblehead

[RiverSnake]

Welcome to TDB. Would recommend you stay away from Mantak Chia. His techniques can be harmful. Karezza may be a good place to start if your looking into sacred sex. Diana Richardson also has some good books on tantra. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by WayofChi

[Hancock]

Welcome bud

 

 

Tongue to palate after your sexual practice with help things flow. Sex aggravates energy and at the moment of release, it expells a unified portion of all your energy channeled through your genitals. Tongue to palate afterwards helps to circulate an restore the bits of agitated energy that's been stirred up.

 

There are different types of body energies. That molasses like, dense energy needs refining more but you're on the right tract, it's jing essence in an unrefined state. 

 

I suggest you try this experiment, look at the outside edge where your hand and space meet. Should relax the eyes. There should be a kind of glow. 

Now feel that glow the same way you feel energy. Most everything has that glow.

 

Another piece of advice is to put your hands two inches apart an feel the space between them, then move your consciousness from one hand to the other just outside where it meets the air. Should be warmth or magnetic feeling,this is bioenergy that the body gives off. A type of yang chi.

That molasses like energy you feel, it might be cool, or kind of have a depth to it similar to a pool, that's typed of yin chi.

 

Differentiating early on can help in some cultivation practices. Not sure bout mantak chia methods, but it doesn't hurt to explore different ways of doing things an it might help you understand mantak better.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Hancock

[seby223]

@hancock

Thanks for the response. I'm just a little confused, what are Jing and yang/yin chi? Google isn't being to helpful. Also you said the molasses is the jing, but also it's yang chi??

 

Can you recommend any other cultivation techniques? I am not aware of any. Have you had any success with this practice?

[seby223]

@Hancock I forgot to mention, every now and then I get a fleeting tingling sensation in my testicles, but as I try to focus it to the perenium it seems to enter my body and dissipate, or disappear. Is this the energy I should be moving?

[Kar3n]

1 hour ago, seby223 said:

@hancock

Thanks for the response. I'm just a little confused, what are Jing and yang/yin chi? Google isn't being to helpful. Also you said the molasses is the jing, but also it's yang chi??

 

Can you recommend any other cultivation techniques? I am not aware of any. Have you had any success with this practice?

You've seen the circle, a waved line down the center? One side is black with a white dot, the other side white the black dot. Yin is female, yang is male, and it's all about you.

 

Jing

Qi/ch

Shen

 

The three treasures is a worthy search on the dao bums.

[Hancock]

3 hours ago, seby223 said:

@hancock

Thanks for the response. I'm just a little confused, what are Jing and yang/yin chi? Google isn't being to helpful. Also you said the molasses is the jing, but also it's yang chi??

 

Can you recommend any other cultivation techniques? I am not aware of any. Have you had any success with this practice?

 

 

There's different types of Jing, the kind I was talking bout is the Essence Jing. As we have sex,  the body looses it an they become diminished over time.  There's techniques an practices to preserve an rebuild sexual energy.

 

Yang chi and Yin chi, are kind of like 2 sides of a coin. There's lots of different types of chi, in our bodies, in nature, and the type we can cultivate. So there's no easy answer, just a general rule of thumb. Yang has an expansive quality, while Yin has a sort of steady quality. Yin is like the Earth, solid and dense. While Yang is like the Sun, radiating.

A Cultivator stabilizes their energy, then refine it over time, rebuilding it an undoing years of misuse while furthering personal growth in several areas.

 

 

There's lots of cultivation methods depending on what you're after. An to be honest, I've pretty much tapped what I know on sexual cultivation. So I suggest asking the others in the forums post questions, there's a men's cultivation part here somewhere. Just do to be afraid to ask what you want to know an do t be afraid to research. Sorry I couldn't be of more help

 

3 hours ago, seby223 said:

@Hancock I forgot to mention, every now and then I get a fleeting tingling sensation in my testicles, but as I try to focus it to the perenium it seems to enter my body and dissipate, or disappear. Is this the energy I should be moving?

That's a form of bodily energy, I've found in my personal practice that tingling usually occurs when things are blocked or there's stagnating, but the energy is trying to flow anyways. Over time as you clear it though, it becomes different, clearer, with an u defined substance.

 

Kar3n made a good point, look into the 3 treasures. It's where lots of people start. I suggest getting g quality ready to take notes because some of the words have multiple meanings or there's more than one type of meaning. An to be honest, from what I know some of here will be glad to answer your questions to the best of their knowledge.

The only thing left for me to say is Welcome to Daobums, go on an start this journey of a thousand miles because you've definitely taken your first steps coming here.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Hancock

[dawei]

Practicing to improve sex seems... a bad motivation for a practice.   I like Mantak Chia's materials but I don't agree with an attempt to follow his sexual practices.  Forget them.

 

If you have a partner, feel your heart and her heart connection... all the time... and in particular it can be combined with a gaze.

 

You should be practicing to just improve your energy level in general; in basic-speak; your connection to the universe.   So the small pictures need to simply be  apart of the larger picture. 

 

Don't put your tongue somewhere special during some event... the great secret is:  Put your tongue under the roof of your mouth 24x7..   let it sit there all day and all night...  Isn't that easier ?   That's my tip.   

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

Practicing to improve sex seems... a bad motivation for a practice

 

Hi dawei,

 

I was waiting for a senior like you to come on-line. Thank you.

 

Not a bad motivation if the motives are good.

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

3 hours ago, dawei said:

If you have a partner, feel your heart and her heart connection... all the time... and in particular it can be combined with a gaze.

 

Hi dawei,

 

Poetic. Melt into the moment? Yes/no? Now I am in a daze with nothing to gaze. Amazing.

 

 

3 hours ago, dawei said:

You should be practicing to just improve your energy level in general; in basic-speak; your connection to the universe.

 

As in learning the alphabets and aim to be a good poet/writer?

 

 

3 hours ago, dawei said:

So the small pictures need to simply be  apart of the larger picture.

 

The alphabets are the elements of words.

 

 

3 hours ago, dawei said:

Don't put your tongue somewhere special during some event

 

Somwhere special ... some event? Question not asked with tongue in cheek.  Asked in anticipation.

 

 

3 hours ago, dawei said:

The great secret is:  Put your tongue under the roof of your mouth 24x7..   let it sit there all day and all night...  Isn't that easier ?

 

You are telling me. Hated it at first. Now it is second nature. Nothing is that easy.

 

 

3 hours ago, dawei said:

That's my tip.

 

Tip of the iceberg? More to come?

 

A great weekend

 

- LimA

Edited August 19, 2017 by Limahong
Enhancement of sentence.

[dawei]

On 8/13/2017 at 3:58 AM, seby223 said:

@Hancock I forgot to mention, every now and then I get a fleeting tingling sensation in my testicles, but as I try to focus it to the perenium it seems to enter my body and dissipate, or disappear. Is this the energy I should be moving?

 

My take is that may mean your perineum is active, which is good.   I've had this for a long time due to MCO practices.

 

My big issues with what you describe are:

1.  jealous of the orgasms my girlfriends were having

2.  wanted more from my 3-5 second burst of an ejaculation.

3. Seeking something more for yourself... maybe you mean a kundalini experience ?

 

Your focus is on yourself and not your partner (or is it partners, as you said, 'girlfriends') ?   I'm not a moralist who will speak against having more than one sexual partner, but what you have created is a diametrically opposed problem:   You have a few partners but focus on yourself.

 

my previous post was likely not clear enough but I'd simply recommend you figure out how to focus on a partner and how you can attain closeness with one partner in such a way that it is not just sex and ejaculation issues.  There is a partnership of energy being shared and you should focus more on her than yourself.  If she is happy... you should be very happy.

 

That being said, you follow your heart and practice and where you are going.  I see something better for you in the future.  

[seby223]

@dawei

Sorry, I should explain more. I only have one girlfriend, I believe I should have written "girlfriend's" rather than "girlfriend".

 

On the point of the jealousy, that was simply what got me started on this practice. Now I'm in it to be able to have more connected, worry free sex. I realize my original motivations were heavily ego driven. Right now during I'm constantly worrying about when I'll finish, if I last long enough... The standard stuff.  I'd like to get past that and be able to fully emerse myself in the experience and feel every drop of love I have for this woman, without worrying. Also, I feel like limiting myself to the 3-5 second ejaculation is only letting myself feel 1/10th of what I am capable of, and why not enjoy everything to the fullest?

 

I also feel that with a deeper orgasm, the connection with my girl itself will be allowed to be deeper and more powerful than if I just let myself go within 4-7 minutes with such a peripheral experience. I feel such a deep, powerful experience of energy flow would make the connection even deeper. Not that I don't feel one now, I definitely do spend time gazing in her eyes and matching her breath to mine.

 

On a side note, I am able to feel the energy 100x better with much more control when I consume cannabis, as well as achieve multiple orgasms. I've yet to get there sober but I think I'm getting closer everyday, I feel I just need some direction, as I'm kinda shooting in the dark here.

 

Thanks for your assistance everybody !

[Limahong]

 

5 minutes ago, seby223 said:

I am able to feel the energy 100x better with much more control when I consume cannabis, as well as achieve multiple orgasms. I've yet to get there sober but I think I'm getting closer everyday, I feel I just need some direction, as I'm kinda shooting in the dark here

 

Hi seby223,

 

Please do not be offended - I feel you are full of expectations.

Yes you are kinda shooting in the dark as you are eperimenting your expectations in the dark.

 

I am very glad that dawei is responding. Take this opportunity to engage him. Try and understand him with a free mind. Cast your expectations to the wind.

 

Personally I am touched by this from dawei:

3 hours ago, dawei said:

I'd simply recommend you figure out how to focus on a partner and how you can attain closeness with one partner in such a way that it is not just sex and ejaculation issues. 

 

 

Be altruistic, unselfish, humane, selfless, noble, self-sacrificing … (as advised by Thesuarus) and dawei thus:

 

4 hours ago, dawei said:

 There is a partnership of energy being shared and you should focus more on her than yourself.  If she is happy... you should be very happy.

 

This is definitely out for a good sexual partnership to develop:

50 minutes ago, seby223 said:

.... I consume cannabis.

 

Cannabis? A BIG no no. You are insulting and hurting your partner/mind

 

55 minutes ago, seby223 said:

I've yet to get there sober but I think I'm getting closer everyday

 

Good for you. You already knew cannabis is not the way. 

 

 

As from me (still very much a new kid on the semen retention), can I suggest these?

(i) Go back to basics by recalling/reliving the moments of your first orgasm/ejaculation and your first nocturnal emission.

(ii) These are blessed moments from ...

(iii) Such moments are not expected or pre-conditioned.

(iv) Work on your mind - it is the all encompassing sex organ.

(v) Incorporate wei wu into sex. I am serious.

 

 

I think it is humbling to read this from dawei:

 

4 hours ago, dawei said:

That being said, you follow your heart and practice and where you are going.  I see something better for you in the future.

 

 

Mind over body.

 

- LimA

[seby223]

Might I ask why cannabis is a big no no? I find it helpful to feeling my energy, and it acts as a sort of "preview" of what's to come. I find if I use it once, or twice a week, I can notice more about the nature of how the energy acts, and it gives me a better idea of what's happening that I can take into my sober meditation and yoga in the following few day's. Obviously I don't know anything about this so I may be completely wrong, and I recognize it is not "the way", but as of now I would view it as sort of like training wheels.

 

@limahong you are completely correct. I am full of expectations. I should release those and enjoy the experienced I have. I love sex with my girlfriend, I love the connection I feel with her and the love we share. I should release my ejaculatory worries and Basque in those feelings. We are long distance at the moment, but in September we will be back together and I will be sure to try and stay in the feeling of connection.

 

 @Limahong @dawei the sad thing is I have no memory of my first ejaculation, neither of night emmisions or wet dreams. The most was I found my pijamas a little less dry than they should be!  But I understand your sentiment. These events were not expected, not forced to happen. They just came, were experienced, enjoyed and then moved on from. The weird thing is I understand I am going at this all wrong full of expectations, but I feel my ego is very much in control of this area of my life. I may need to meditate on my motivations, and practices to better understand myself and why I am so worried about this.

[seby223]

@dawei

 

Is kundalini more along the lines of what I'm looking at/for?

 

I will try and focus on connection next time I am with my girl. I can see what your saying, ive read somewhere about a tantra idea of being in a complete state of "receiving" and "giving" in sex, and have already tried to incorporate this. I feel that is along the same lines as what you are suggesting.

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, seby223 said:

I feel that is along the same lines as what you are suggesting.

 

HI seby223,

 

I will reply to your above posts another time.

It is 12 noon at my end.

Going for Sunday lunch with family.

 

dawei has paved a path for you.

The ball is in your court now.

 

Sex as nature intended is beautiful.

Love yourself as part of nature.

 

Be kind to yourself.

Don't be one kind - the wrong kind.

 

A beautiful weekend.

 

- LimA

Edited August 20, 2017 by Limahong
Correct typo error.

[Limahong]

7 hours ago, seby223 said:

Might I ask why cannabis is a big no no?

 

Hi seby223,

 

Cannabis is banned in Singapore. If caught with it the penalities are extremely high as such:

 

Cannabis is classified as a Class A drug under the Misuse of Drugs Act.

(i) Possession or consumption of cannabis:

- Up to 10 years of imprisonment or S$20,000 fine or BOTH

(ii) Illegal traffic, import or export of:

- Cannabis of more than 500 grams > May face the death penalty

- Cannabis resin of more than 200 grams > May face the death penalty

- Cannabis mixture of more than 1,000 grams > May face the death penalty.

 

 

7 hours ago, seby223 said:

I find it helpful to feeling my energy, and it acts as a sort of "preview" of what's to come. I find if I use it once, or twice a week, I can notice more about the nature of how the energy acts, and it gives me a better idea of what's happening that I can take into my sober meditation and yoga in the following few day's.

 

WHAT? YOU ARE DESTROYING YOURSELF!

Per those words highlghted red, you are justiying and FOOLING yourself.

 

 

7 hours ago, seby223 said:

Obviously I don't know anything about this so I may be completely wrong, and I recognize it is not "the way"

 

You ARE completely wrong. Now that you recognise "it is not the way", WHAT are you going to do?

 

 

7 hours ago, seby223 said:

As of now I would view it as sort of like training wheels.

 

STOP IT! You have come across as a very intelligent person. PLEASE use you intelligence to help/save yourself.

 

 

7 hours ago, seby223 said:

 

@limahong you are completely correct.

 

And you are completely wrong.

 

 

7 hours ago, seby223 said:

I am full of expectations.

 

You are full of WRONG expectations.

 

 

7 hours ago, seby223 said:

I should release those and enjoy the experienced I have. I love sex with my girlfriend, I love the connection I feel with her and the love we share.

 

You SHOULD! Real love? If so, be a real man - protect her.

 

 

7 hours ago, seby223 said:

I should release my ejaculatory worries and Basque in those feelings.

 

Again you SHOULD! Learn a new a new from you - Basque. Thank you.

 

 

7 hours ago, seby223 said:

We are long distance at the moment, but in September we will be back together and I will be sure to try and stay in the feeling of connection.

 

Not "try". You "must".

 

 

7 hours ago, seby223 said:

The sad thing is I have no memory ...

 

Nothing to be sad about. Create new memories. You surely can - what with your "training wheels".

 

 

7 hours ago, seby223 said:

The weird thing is I understand I am going at this all wrong full of expectations, but I feel my ego is very much in control of this area of my life.

 

Then change EGO to ECO. Google "Presencing".

 

 

7 hours ago, seby223 said:

I may need to meditate on my motivations, and practices to better understand myself and why I am so worried about this

 

Make sure you meditate properly - unaided by cannabis.

 

How old are you seby223?  Stop the follies of youth - RIGHT NOW!

 

- LimA

Edited August 20, 2017 by Limahong
Correct typo error.

[Limahong]

On 8/20/2017 at 10:33 AM, seby223 said:

Might I ask why cannabis is a big no no? I find it helpful to feeling my energy, and it acts as a sort of "preview" of what's to come.

 

Hi seby223,

 

Please stop the cannabis. Don't destroy yourself.

If you think that it is going to be difficult to stop - you are right.

But you are not alone with your struggles to go drug free.

I like to believe that there is sense of brotherhood support at TDB.

 

Just think of the great guy within you trying to get out.

To walk in the sunshine and rain.

 

Please stop.

 

- LimA

 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Limahong
Correct typo error.

[phil]

Cannabis can be a great teacher. It's not good or bad per se. What makes it a helpful or damaging substance is your usage of it. 

As long as it helps you to be more sensitive to energies, to feel more aspects or yourself and the world it is a great tool. Just don't rely on it. There may be a time when you don't need it anymore and it's important to let go. It's the same with every teacher, when they taught you everything they can you have to let go of them and move foreward

Edited August 21, 2017 by phil48

[Limahong]

14 minutes ago, phil48 said:

Cannabis can be a great teacher.

 

Hi phil48,

 

When you go travelling please check out first which country is cannibis tolerant and which is not.

Please get on the wrong side of a host country's laws.

 

14 minutes ago, phil48 said:

It's the same with every teacher ...

 

I like to believe most teachers have within each a human heart.

 

- LimA

Edited August 21, 2017 by Limahong
Correct typo error.

[Limahong]

On 8/20/2017 at 10:33 AM, seby223 said:

Obviously I don't know anything about this so I may be completely wrong, and I recognize it is not "the way", but as of now I would view it as sort of like training wheels.

 

Hi seby223,

 

You are your own best teacher.

Your openness - your strength.

I sense your lightness of being.

Get to know yourself more.

 

- LimA

[seby223]

@Limahong I feel you are prejudiced against cannabis. The only reasoning you've given me to stop using it is that it's illegal in Singapore. Where I am I have a medical prescription and am allowed to use it. I don't use it every day, and I have no problem taking extended breaks of not using it. I don't think it's the issue here

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, seby223 said:

I feel you are prejudiced against cannabis. The only reasoning you've given me to stop using it is that it's illegal in Singapore

 

Hi seby223,

 

You are correct I am "prejudiced against cannabis".

 

But my reasons are (i) not only because "it's illegal in Singapore" but (ii) there is a wider legal perspective when it comes to cannabis.

 

This is an excerpt from Wikipedia on - Legality of cannabis by country:

The legality of cannabis for general or recreational use varies from country to country. Possession of cannabis is illegal in most countries as a result of the agreement about Indian hemp, also known as hashish, in the International Opium Convention (1925). However, many countries have decriminalized the possession of small quantities of cannabis;

In the United States, medical cannabis is allowed by some state, territorial, Indian reservation, and District of Columbia law, but medical and recreation use is illegal by federal law. While federal law is controlling, the government has chosen not to prosecute users operating in compliance with local medical and recreational marijuana laws.

As of 2017, Australia, Bangladesh, Cambodia, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, the Czech Republic, Germany, India, Jamaica, Mexico, the Netherlands, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, Uruguay, and some U.S. jurisdictions have the least restrictive cannabis laws, while China, Egypt, France,^[5] Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Nigeria, Norway, the Philippines, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, South Korea, Thailand, Turkey, Ukraine, the United Arab Emirates and Vietnam have the strictest cannabis laws.

(Please read in-depth at Wikipedia).

 

Besides the legal aspects of cannabis, I am also concerned about its chemical effects. I am a chemist by training. 

 

This is an excerpt from Wikipedia on - Effects of cannabis:

The primary effects of cannabis are caused by the chemical compounds in the plant, including cannabinoids, such as tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), which is only one of more than 100 different cannabinoids present in the plant.

Cannabis has various psychological and physiological effects on the human body.

Different plants of the genus Cannabis contain different and often unpredictable concentrations of THC and other cannabinoids and hundreds of other molecules that have a pharmacological effect,so that the final net effect cannot reliably be foreseen.

Acute effects while under the influence can include euphoria and anxiety. Cannabidiol (CBD), another cannabinoid found in cannabis in varying amounts, has been shown to alleviate the adverse effects of THC that some consumers experience. With very high doses, THC can induce auditory and visual hallucinations.

Research about medical benefits of cannabis has been hindered by United States federal law. Smoking any substance will carry the same risk as smoking tobacco due to carcinogens in all smoke,^[8][9] and the ultimate conclusions on these factors are disputed.

Cannabis "use disorder" is defined as a medical diagnosis in the fifth revision of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders(DSM-5).

 

 

1 hour ago, seby223 said:

Where I am I have a medical prescription and am allowed to use it. I don't use it every day, and I have no problem taking extended breaks of not using it. I don't think it's the issue here

 

Please review "where I am" through more reading.

 

Please read very carefully and take very good care of yourself.

 

I like your openness.

 

- LimA

Edited August 21, 2017 by Limahong
Correct typo error.

[blue eyed snake]

err...I've been using weed and it's derivatives for about twenty years, in copious amounts ( and that in itself is more then that time ago)

 

When used regularly it is a way to disassociate yourself from feelings that you do not want to feel/ that you do not feel able to feel. Those are mostly subconscious processes. Further more it gets your balance of neurotransmitters ( further) out of whack. In these two aspects it is just like alcohol.

 

Cultivation  should lead one through their old emotions and attachments so to become free of them. ( among other things)

 

I can imagine that using weed once in a while can have a different effect. But people who tend to disassociate from their feelings also tend to get hooked on the stuff.  Life feels unhappy to them and they're after nice experiences to blunt the pain.

 

I'm not trying to be harsh here, just recounting my own life-experiences. 

 

I've no moral ideas about it either way.