Daoism - beginnings

[Miroku]

Hi
There has always been something that has bothered me concerning daoism (except for the fact that you can also spell it with T). And that is the importance of a master. How much is master actually important?

You see I am coming from a tibetan buddhist view point where you are basically screwed without a master or atleast some form of guide. How does this work in Daoism? How do new people get into the real doist stuff? Only through books, or are there some well known masters and organisations that one can trust? Are daoist masters always associated with taichi and qigong and other chinese arts so if one wants to meet a doist master one has to search for a taichi masters, etc? Would you mind sharing your story of meeting your daoist master?

I have always been kinda interested in daoism, however totall lack of teachers around me has prevented me from exploring this tradition. Don't take it like I wanna change anything I am just simply curious, how one can begin.

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu is my Master.  I've never met him but I have determined he was a pretty neat guy.

 

The best advice I can offer is to first understand the philosophy.  Read many different translations of the TTC.  Read at least one translation of the Chuang Tzu.  Then, with a firm appreciation of the philosophy see how it reflects your "feelings"; how you view life and how it relates to the philosophy.

 

From that point you have full choice of which path you wish to wander.

 

[silent thunder]

I find the world is a magnificent teacher.  Teachers everywhere really.  Birds, bones, beaches, trees, stones.

There is also the teacher within...

 

 

But to me, there requires nothing to connect to tao.  Indeed the only impossible thing to me, is to ever be separate from tao for even a halfmoment by even a hairs width.

 

You are tao/dao.

 

Walk outside and then sit in the sun.  Listen and feel the wind.  Get thirsty. 

Stand up and go take some water.  Drink your fill.

Sleep in the shade.  Wake when rested. 

 

Tao.

 

 

[Rara]

All of the above. I too and a bit of a Chuang Tzu fan but I think that boils down to my slightly cheeky nature, and I love good literature with imagery and metaphors

 

I actually spent so much time seeking some sort of master-figure, and was let down time and time again. I wouldn't go to someone just because they advertise Daoist teachings, Tai Chi, Qigong etc etc. Sometimes I look at the guys on Youtube at Wudang and think that would be an awesome life. Other times I think they look too organised and ritualistic and that it probably wouldn't work out well if I ever went.

 

I've found a happy medium in reading a few pages of my books every day, and having a good Tai Chi class to go to once a week, then practice that daily. Interestingly, the teacher doesn't call herself a master, and doesn't really talk about Daoism (she has only mentioned it once when talking about some contextual stuff) She is lovely, and a great teacher, but has no interest in being anything else for her students. After all, we all just end up having to leave the class and get back to life afterwards, and that life is Dao anyway.

 

 

[Stosh]

This may be the first time I have said the following, , Having a teacher is paramount IF you want the whole kit and kaboodle of tradition. I dont have one , and because of that I can never have the sense that I belong involved. 

I read lots of text and have my impressions, this in not the same. I see many differing mindsets, disagreements confusions uncertainties. 

It is easy to arrive at crazy conclusions, especially with these complex works. 

Its paradoxical that one wouldnt be able to pick the true masters ,unless you understood the material already. 

There is real value in the considerations presented which requires no tradition to validate, however, it is buried under thousands of years of change.  Tradition can keep you on track, make you feel certainty, feel belonging and achievement.  Dao, ,, well,,  the truth of it is formless. ,, does that matter ? :-)

[Rara]

@Stosh Thank you for your always-two-sides-of-the-coin response haha.

 

One question. How do we know that Daoist teachers haven't interpreted things wrong too? And with Tai Chi...this was developed fairly recently, considering how old Daoism is. To me, it's merely a physical interpretation in itself, but surely can only be a component of Daoist practice as a result, right? From what I've read in The Chuang Tzu, we know very little about the actual practice of the ancients...

[morning dew]

Good question/thread.  

 

I'm not 'A Daoist', although I'm certainly interested in Daoism. Personally, I don't like the whole idea of having a 'master'. To me that has implications of life guidance and a father figure and some kind of 'power relationship', etc. 

 

I would say I really enjoy training with my current Tai Chi teacher, because he's a good guy and we have a laugh and get down to training and the advice is minimal and always on point with the training.

 

I had a Qigong teacher before him, who was a nice enough guy. He would, however, keep giving life advice and having 'thought of the week' readings after meditation at the end of the class, etc. Personally, I can come in here for all that kind of stuff (or just read up on it myself) and chat to people as equals, etc. whenever I feel like it.

Edited August 15, 2017 by morning dew

[Stosh]

3 hours ago, Rara said:

@Stosh Thank you for your always-two-sides-of-the-coin response haha.

 

One question. How do we know that Daoist teachers haven't interpreted things wrong too? And with Tai Chi...this was developed fairly recently, considering how old Daoism is. To me, it's merely a physical interpretation in itself, but surely can only be a component of Daoist practice as a result, right? From what I've read in The Chuang Tzu, we know very little about the actual practice of the ancients...

You, I , don't and can't know that the teacher has it right , He can transfer a tradition , and you can feel accepted , part of things, validated.

You can know that... eventually.

And this is what people usually want. They want Tai Chi and Qi Gong , they want stories of immortals,  retreats ,and good times.

There's nothing wrong with any of that.

There's nothing wrong either , with being primarily interested in the linguistics , philosophy ,  history poetry and culture.

These are all , what I am calling 'forms', they are the flip side of the formless. (The formless, being a path you take toward your spiritual growth ). 

To exercise your spirit ,  you really need to do - physical things in the real world.

It takes real personal power to quit bad habits , operate in , both ,  your own self interest , and others.

But we can imagine literally anything , and do forget it just as easily.

You can meditate till the cows come home , but as soon as you start moving again , meeting real resistance ,

that's when the tests begin and you find out if you have been learning anything when your eyes were closed.

If your teacher , or text ,  is good , the world will start to fit you differently. Believing that , is called faith. 

 in the mean time ,, we have entertainment  

 

[Stosh]

3 hours ago, morning dew said:

Good question/thread.  

 

I'm not 'A Daoist', although I'm certainly interested in Daoism. Personally, I don't like the whole idea of having a 'master'. To me that has implications of life guidance and a father figure and some kind of 'power relationship', etc. 

 

I would say I really enjoy training with my current Tai Chi teacher, because he's a good guy and we have a laugh and get down to training and the advice is minimal and always on point with the training.

 

I had a Qigong teacher before him, who was a nice enough guy. He would, however, keep giving life advice and having 'thought of the week' readings after meditation at the end of the class, etc. Personally, I can come in here for all that kind of stuff (or just read up on it myself) and chat to people as equals, etc. whenever I feel like it.

Everyone will usually say that its your right to be self sufficient , to not follow , to not trust in another more than onesself.  

There's a problem though , and that is .. one will tend to do and think tomorrow , what they did and thought yesterday,  when they are left to their own judgement.

The equal you can dismiss , simply for being an equal , Will be dismissed... 'whenever you feel like it' , and you will always feel like it. 

[Rara]

13 hours ago, Stosh said:

You, I , don't and can't know that the teacher has it right , He can transfer a tradition , and you can feel accepted , part of things, validated.

You can know that... eventually.

And this is what people usually want. They want Tai Chi and Qi Gong , they want stories of immortals,  retreats ,and good times.

There's nothing wrong with any of that.

There's nothing wrong either , with being primarily interested in the linguistics , philosophy ,  history poetry and culture.

These are all , what I am calling 'forms', they are the flip side of the formless. (The formless, being a path you take toward your spiritual growth ). 

To exercise your spirit ,  you really need to do - physical things in the real world.

It takes real personal power to quit bad habits , operate in , both ,  your own self interest , and others.

But we can imagine literally anything , and do forget it just as easily.

You can meditate till the cows come home , but as soon as you start moving again , meeting real resistance ,

that's when the tests begin and you find out if you have been learning anything when your eyes were closed.

If your teacher , or text ,  is good , the world will start to fit you differently. Believing that , is called faith. 

 in the mean time ,, we have entertainment  

 

 

Maybe you should be a teacher Very nice response.

 

Yes, I said to my fiancée that the tea she was drinking would make her immortal if she drank it every day. Of course, I was just dressing it up with flowers and mysticism. She is a Wiccan after all, and she will take that probably more seriously than I do.

 

You are right though. I belonged to a mindfulness forum as well and around 6 or so years ago, I went in with a particular problem of getting constant anxiety outside of meditation and when meditating, I was constantly worrying about the things I needed to get done. A Tai Chi teacher said two things to me. 1) Why am I sitting down and worrying if I have other things to do. Why not do them and meditate when I'm able and 2) The meditation is almost useless if I then get up afterwards and continue to run around mindlessly.

 

6 years later, and I am still training myself to change my habits and mindset. A huge improvement has been made, don't get me wrong, but it's amazing how that in itself is a daily task.

 

One thing I am grateful for though, in relation to the OP, is having some form of teacher that I can learn from passively. I kept getting into martial art classes where I was surrounded by other "broken" youngsters and a "broken" teacher. Now I have a teacher that is a chilled, happy middle-aged lady - the environment reminds me that there's an entire different world out there, should I choose to enter it.

 

But you are also saying that either way, the teacher or guide will give you the discipline to learn something without you being able to do things "your own way"...which people often misunderstand with Daoism. I will elaborate in my next post....

Edited August 16, 2017 by Rara

[Rara]

12 hours ago, Stosh said:

Everyone will usually say that its your right to be self sufficient , to not follow , to not trust in another more than onesself.  

There's a problem though , and that is .. one will tend to do and think tomorrow , what they did and thought yesterday,  when they are left to their own judgement.

The equal you can dismiss , simply for being an equal , Will be dismissed... 'whenever you feel like it' , and you will always feel like it. 

 

When I began reading and practicing around 2009, I liked it because "yeah man, free spirit stuff, be yourself, do what you want, find your own path man, your own waaaaaay". This is all fine, but too much of this attitude led to a complete lack of discipline and arrogance. It was around two years ago when I realised "oh, I've gone virtually nowhere", when I shut up and seeked people that could teach me another way of life.

 

Maybe I would like all the trimmings after all. If only there was a Taoist community or temple around where I live.

[morning dew]

13 hours ago, Stosh said:

Everyone will usually say that its your right to be self sufficient , to not follow , to not trust in another more than onesself.  

There's a problem though , and that is .. one will tend to do and think tomorrow , what they did and thought yesterday,  when they are left to their own judgement.

The equal you can dismiss , simply for being an equal , Will be dismissed... 'whenever you feel like it' , and you will always feel like it. 

 

That's not my experience, personally. I guess we operate in different ways, which is fair enough.  

[Stosh]

See, ,

you just dismissed the point I was making, because you think the view you hold , is the one you should stick with, and therefore the one that should rule your actions and future thoughts. 

[Marblehead]

And here I sit, just as hard-headed as ever.

 

But I do entertain alternate perspectives.  I even submit some now and again.

 

[morning dew]

2 hours ago, Stosh said:

See, ,

you just dismissed the point I was making, because you think the view you hold , is the one you should stick with, and therefore the one that should rule your actions and future thoughts. 

 

I disagree with this as well. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on 'masters' and things such as the method of authority.  

Edited August 16, 2017 by morning dew

[dawei]

On 8/15/2017 at 6:06 AM, Stosh said:

This may be the first time I have said the following, , Having a teacher is paramount IF you want the whole kit and kaboodle of tradition.

 

That is a very interesting point

 

I might similarly say, it depends on the 'layer' of Oneness that one is progressing through and next on to.   As long as it seems [perceived] layers, a leader (teacher, master, guru, etc) helps provide the path in a way we may not be able to work through as easily.   While we are a part of Unity, it is like our soul seeks Unity due to feelings of disunity. 

 

I mentioned this in another recent thread but I also see it like someone who is more on the surface of Oneness where there is like a gravitational pull to Duality;  The innermost core is the highest region/layer of Oneness and a master is closer to that core and thus can help one with that layer.

 

I talk in layers only because it seems a picture that is easier to understand but there are no layers really.  

[Marblehead]

I still live in "yu".  But I rest in "wu".

 

Where's my teacher?  Oh, never mind.

 

[rene]

32 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I still live in "yu".  But I rest in "wu".

 

Where's my teacher?  Oh, never mind.

 

 

Here...

:tosses MH a copy of F/E's TTC:

...if you need words.

 

Otherwise, go sit by your pond. (-:

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, morning dew said:

 

I disagree with this as well. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on 'masters' and things such as the method of authority.  

I predicted that

[rene]

On 08/14/2017 at 10:28 AM, Miroku said:

Hi
There has always been something that has bothered me concerning daoism (except for the fact that you can also spell it with T). And that is the importance of a master. How much is master actually important?

You see I am coming from a tibetan buddhist view point where you are basically screwed without a master or atleast some form of guide. How does this work in Daoism? How do new people get into the real doist stuff? Only through books, or are there some well known masters and organisations that one can trust? Are daoist masters always associated with taichi and qigong and other chinese arts so if one wants to meet a doist master one has to search for a taichi masters, etc? Would you mind sharing your story of meeting your daoist master?

I have always been kinda interested in daoism, however totall lack of teachers around me has prevented me from exploring this tradition. Don't take it like I wanna change anything I am just simply curious, how one can begin.

 

Depends on what you mean by 'real daoist' stuff.

If you mean the true old rituals, you'll need a real teacher and good luck with finding one.

If you mean something somewhat close to the true old - you might find guidance somewhere.

If you mean something modern, created with good intentions (out of necessity) you might even find that here.

If you mean ideas about living in the flow of tao, you'll definately find it here.

If you mean finding tao, quit looking. You already have it.

 

Warm greetings!

[Stosh]

5 hours ago, Rara said:

 

When I began reading and practicing around 2009, I liked it because "yeah man, free spirit stuff, be yourself, do what you want, find your own path man, your own waaaaaay". This is all fine, but too much of this attitude led to a complete lack of discipline and arrogance. It was around two years ago when I realised "oh, I've gone virtually nowhere", when I shut up and seeked people that could teach me another way of life.

 

Maybe I would like all the trimmings after all. If only there was a Taoist community or temple around where I live.

That would be nice , wouldn't it?  

I forget who I heard it from , but they made a point , that discipline and freedom are two sides of the same coin,

I think it was related to learning to oil paint,,,  knowing the skills and lessons of the great masters,  helps a person eventually develop a style which isn't just a randomly acquired mess. And even then , when one has this new style , there are the rules of the style itself. 

Its OK either way ,whichever way you go, there is no plan you have to fulfill ,, no finish line you have to reach , and so you can never 'fail' to meet these ..( nothing left un-done since there is nothing needing to be done ) but still  living and breathing ,, , you Can set goals like these, try things out , or just skip stuff , that literally is- You living. 

but Do  recognize that these were options you set for yourself -so whatever comes of them ,,  well ,, Thats just how things went with Rara this go-round.

Its Your ball game Sir.  

Edited August 16, 2017 by Stosh