The limits of free speech

[Brian]

Just now, liminal_luke said:

 

Those test questions are hilarious!

I wish I could find the skit because Garrett Morris's body language and facial expressions were the kicker!

[liminal_luke]

13 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Well, I will add to the fire, if there is one.  This morning there was a black man on my property helping me work in my gardens.  Of course, I paid him fair wages.

 

And it so happened that a black lady called me while I was outside working and I returned her call and we spoke for a while.  We are friends, Her husband and daughter are friends of mine as well.

 

 

 

Marblehead, you scoundrel! 

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Marblehead, you scoundrel! 

I do my best.

 

[Brian]

7 minutes ago, Hancock said:

It's obvious what you're doing, why you're doing it, an your claim of racism goggles is just your narrow viewpoint because you've not comprehended the larger picture of what I've discussed.

 

Racism Is bad. It doesn't promote harmony, unity, growth as a species. It keeps us separate. A barrier to our capacity to sense our interconnectivity.

 

 

Astounding!  Please, tell us more about what I am doing and why I am doing it.  Please tell us more about who those racists are and what they believe and how they act.

 

You seriously "don't know much about those people in the video"???  Really?!?  Perhaps you need to take a little time and educate yourself on the very topic about which you are pontificating.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Brian

[Hancock]

2 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I will ask you the question in reverse:  Why do many Blacks differentiate between Black people and White people?

 

It is a fact that our skin color is different and it is also a fact that many have very different cultures.

 

As you are arguing, until we look at a person and make no prejudgments there will the differences that are point out.  This is human nature and it applies to nearly all aspects of life.

 

 

 

I'm not arguing anything. I'm tapping on my tablet while watching how I met your mother. Ask yourself why do you differentiate between black and white, and why not say people til  you have to describe skin color? 

Not speak making for all black, just my self. We define ourselves because we don't have another name for our culture. If you say All American, people think a white guy, football star, etc because it's how society has conditioned things to be.

So being black an saying we're black is a way to say we are who we are. A white person doesn't understand our viewpoint because unless they get makeup allover an go out into the world and live as a black person, they don't understand the treatment we receive for being not white. It is how this country is although many would deny it, but those who deny it are usually if not almost always white or white mixed but they appear more Caucasian than what they're mixed with.

 

The answers aren't always pretty.

 

 

[Brian]

4 minutes ago, Hancock said:

 

 

I'm not arguing anything. I'm tapping on my tablet while watching how I met your mother. Ask yourself why do you differentiate between black and white, and why not say people til  you have to describe skin color? 

Not speak making for all black, just my self. We define ourselves because we don't have another name for our culture. If you say All American, people think a white guy, football star, etc because it's how society has conditioned things to be.

So being black an saying we're black is a way to say we are who we are. A white person doesn't understand our viewpoint because unless they get makeup allover an go out into the world and live as a black person, they don't understand the treatment we receive for being not white. It is how this country is although many would deny it, but those who deny it are usually if not almost always white or white mixed but they appear more Caucasian than what they're mixed with.

 

The answers aren't always pretty.

 

 

The people you associate with think "white guy, football star, etc." when you say "All American"?

 

Have you actually tested that hypothesis or is that really just what you think?

 

Perhaps you should consider associating with different people (or try talking to someone about this...)

 

BTW, I'm not arguing, either, I'm just tapping on a keyboard.

[Hancock]

6 minutes ago, Brian said:

Astounding!  Please, tell us more about what I am doing and why I am doing it.  Please tell us more about who those racists are and what they believe and how they act.

 

You seriously "don't know much about those people in the video"???  Really?!?  Perhaps you need to take a little time and educate yourself on the very topic about which you are pontificating.

Ok, you got butthurt cause I mentioned in a post where you said you didn't want to talk on the forums cause you think in play the victim. An posted to me on here in this thread bout it, even saying my response would decide what you do next.

I replied, but because I dont want drama, I erased it.

Then you deliberately began asking questions directly to me in attempts to get reactions to feed your hurt ego. Things you thought I would find offensive, an you even try taunting by calling me a tool.

When nothing worked, you ask me to explain it so you can pick apart "my view" an further your ego drama.

I play along cause it helps me develop thru dealing with idiocracy.

 

No I wasn't taught bout civil rights in school. We didn't celebrate black history month. It's the south.

[Marblehead]

4 minutes ago, Hancock said:

 

 

I'm not arguing anything. I'm tapping on my tablet while watching how I met your mother. Ask yourself why do you differentiate between black and white, and why not say people til  you have to describe skin color? 

Not speak making for all black, just my self. We define ourselves because we don't have another name for our culture. If you say All American, people think a white guy, football star, etc because it's how society has conditioned things to be.

So being black an saying we're black is a way to say we are who we are. A white person doesn't understand our viewpoint because unless they get makeup allover an go out into the world and live as a black person, they don't understand the treatment we receive for being not white. It is how this country is although many would deny it, but those who deny it are usually if not almost always white or white mixed but they appear more Caucasian than what they're mixed with.

 

The answers aren't always pretty.

 

 

Well, I don't feel I have a problem.  People who speak Spanish I normally call Hispanic, people who speak French I normally call Cajun, people with white skin I normally call Caucasian and people with Black skin I normally call Black.  All Americans, by the way, which is how I sometimes refer to them all.

 

I always try to keep it respectful as long as respect is due.  When respect isn't due then there are different words I use.

 

And I do respect the Hispanics, Blacks and Cajuns for holding to their mother cultures.  It's one of the  things that makes America so great a place to live.

 

[Hancock]

Just now, Brian said:

The people you associate with think "white guy, football star, etc." when you say "All American"?

 

Have you actually tested that hypothesis or is that really just what you think?

 

Perhaps you should consider associating with different people (or try talking to someone about this...)

 

BTW, I'm not arguing, either, I'm just tapping on a keyboard.

Dude I called it lol. I said you'd pick things apart that you asked me about in the post right before you posted this. Lmao

 

I've associated with lots of types of people.

 

tested what hypothesis? Dude your grasping for straws.

 

I mean look at television, an if you were an actor I'd tell you to look at casting call sheets where they have stereotypes of characters. The idea of American even overseas is mainly a Caucasian person.

 

Again you insinuate things are mental, gotta love your consistency. I know your trick is simple as hell, try to discredit what I say with opinion bias, then discrediting sanity thru inferences of needing a psychologist. It's great to see the effort you waste on me. I really am not worth it.

 

How come no one commented on racism being bad and how I said it creates separation in humanity an should be done away with so we can grow as a species?

 

Instead I'm getting questions on being black. Y'all people are trippin.

[Brian]

Just now, Hancock said:

Ok, you got butthurt cause I mentioned in a post where you said you didn't want to talk on the forums cause you think in play the victim. An posted to me on here in this thread bout it, even saying my response would decide what you do next.

I replied, but because I dont want drama, I erased it.

Then you deliberately began asking questions directly to me in attempts to get reactions to feed your hurt ego. Things you thought I would find offensive, an you even try taunting by calling me a tool.

When nothing worked, you ask me to explain it so you can pick apart "my view" an further your ego drama.

I play along cause it helps me develop thru dealing with idiocracy.

 

No I wasn't taught bout civil rights in school. We didn't celebrate black history month. It's the south.

I've lived in the South my entire life and I learned all about civil rights AND celebrated Black History Month.  I then went much further than that and took it upon myself to research race relations in the US going back to well prior to the founding of the union.  Do you know, for instance, who was the slave owner in the first legal case in the US regarding slavery?  You should find out...

 

This really has nothing to do with my ego, Hancock, but with yours.  You are projecting your own deep-seated racial prejudices onto those around you, are thinly veiling implications that those who disagree with your worldview are necessarily bigoted oppressors, and you are passive-aggressively dodging questions which would reveal your own racist ideas.

 

I'll stop for now...

[Hancock]

8 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Well, I don't feel I have a problem.  People who speak Spanish I normally call Hispanic, people who speak French I normally call Cajun, people with white skin I normally call Caucasian and people with Black skin I normally call Black.  All Americans, by the way, which is how I sometimes refer to them all.

 

I always try to keep it respectful as long as respect is due.  When respect isn't due then there are different words I use.

 

And I do respect the Hispanics, Blacks and Cajuns for holding to their mother cultures.  It's one of the  things that makes America so great a place to live.

 

Your views are a bit culturally prejudice, however that you respect people of another way of thought is key. That's what's go I g to help people stop this racism stuff in the long run.

 

I was at a bank an a little boy jumped out the car and put on music an said, "Hey I'm like you." An began to dance. I asked him if he made any dances of his own, an he said he would try. I felt when bond with this kid who reached out to a total stranger an made a connection.

Yes it was racist on his part, but it also showed a breaking of racist programming. Defying an old way. It gives me hope.

[Hancock]

4 minutes ago, Brian said:

I've lived in the South my entire life and I learned all about civil rights AND celebrated Black History Month.  I then went much further than that and took it upon myself to research race relations in the US going back to well prior to the founding of the union.  Do you know, for instance, who was the slave owner in the first legal case in the US regarding slavery?  You should find out...

 

This really has nothing to do with my ego, Hancock, but with yours.  You are projecting your own deep-seated racial prejudices onto those around you, are thinly veiling implications that those who disagree with your worldview are necessarily bigoted oppressors, and you are passive-aggressively dodging questions which would reveal your own racist ideas.

 

I'll stop for now...

Lmao, I've only spoken by my experiences with racism to prove that people can go beyond them an see each other as human beings.

 

Again your stoic desire to put me down for some reason or another is obvious.

 

I answered your questions in a post while back.

 

No one has answered why they support white supremacist having the moral right to free speech.

 

If you feel I've dodged something, ask it again. But for someone who claimed to not want to talk on the forum with me again, you've invested quite a few posts in doing it. 

 

I never said anyone here was a racist, an I've pointed out racist behavior doesn't necessarily make one racist. It's people who deliberately uphold racist views that's racist. Someone who doesn't consciously try to be racist or consciously choose to be racist, but behaves in a racist way unknowingly is not really racist just a product of social programming that can be unlearned in time.

 

An I've not in any way said that people who disagree with my worldview are bigoted oppressors. I think I understand your butthurt now.

 

My ego is bigger than yours, an I keep it in check. What's your excuse?

[Hancock]

Seriously anybody got an answer for why people protect the freedom of speech for a group that openly hates?

 

Or why I suddenly became the expert of blackness here? Not that I don't mind edumacating someone y'all on what it means to be serious a person of color. But the point  I try to get across is racism is bad because it causes separateness, an stops humanity from unifying to do awesome things like world peace or exploring the stars, or solving homeless an food issues globally. When I mention that people drop out the conversation, like they're isn't anything to argue with so they disappear. I'm not here to argue. I'm not being sarcastic with my questions. I'm asking for the truth. 

[Brian]

6 minutes ago, Hancock said:

Lmao, I've only spoken by my experiences with racism to prove that people can go beyond them an see each other as human beings.

 

Again your stoic desire to put me down for some reason or another is obvious.

 

I answered your questions in a post while back.

 

No one has answered why they support white supremacist having the moral right to free speech.

 

If you feel I've dodged something, ask it again. But for someone who claimed to not want to talk on the forum with me again, you've invested quite a few posts in doing it. 

 

I never said anyone here was a racist, an I've pointed out racist behavior doesn't necessarily make one racist. It's people who deliberately uphold racist views that's racist. Someone who doesn't consciously try to be racist or consciously choose to be racist, but behaves in a racist way unknowingly is not really racist just a product of social programming that can be unlearned in time.

 

An I've not in any way said that people who disagree with my worldview are bigoted oppressors. I think I understand your butthurt now.

 

My ego is bigger than yours, an I keep it in check. What's your excuse?

If people who don't consciously choose to be racists aren't really racists then why did you make a point of explaining to me what it is that "the subconscious white racist" tried to do?  Why the "subconscious" adjective, and particularly why the "white" adjective?  That's quite curious...

 

I absolutely gave you a straight on why I "support white supremacist having the moral right to free speech." Everyone has the moral right to free speech, regardless of whether I find them offensive.  That you somehow find within yourself the moral authority to determine who is allowed to speak and who deserves to be oppressed is something for YOU to examine on your own -- when and if you are someday ready to look in that painful mirror.

 

[Hancock]

5 minutes ago, Brian said:

If people who don't consciously choose to be racists aren't really racists then why did you make a point of explaining to me what it is that "the subconscious white racist" tried to do?  Why the "subconscious" adjective, and particularly why the "white" adjective?  That's quite curious...

 

I absolutely gave you a straight on why I "support white supremacist having the moral right to free speech." Everyone has the moral right to free speech, regardless of whether I find them offensive.  That you somehow find within yourself the moral authority to determine who is allowed to speak and who deserves to be oppressed is something for YOU to examine on your own -- when and if you are someday ready to look in that painful mirror.

 

I've been discussing white racists cause they were in the rally. You keep attempting to get me to defend the African-American views or keep insinuating I've got antiwhite racist views. I've said racism itself is the ensuing our humanity, our unifying an being what we can be as a collective.

 

Why am I a moral authority? I'm just me, I'm voicing my views. I point out what is clear to me from life experiences an just my personal views, I don't hold any office of moral judge. If it hits home an there's stuff in yourself you feel isn't right, then it doesn't have to do much with me, so the attempts at projecting are self denial.

 

You support free speech, yet keep picking apart and attacking what I'm saying because I don't agree with your views, then you even claim that's what I'm doing, when it's apparent your the one with the chip on his shoulder with anything i post on this thread. 

 

Again dude you're grasping at straws to insult me. The issue is bigger than us. I dont feel racist groups should be legal, they should be treated like a lot of gang members an sent to jail. Just because they use the legal system an stay within inches of the law, doesn't mean it is morally right. Check your conscience if you agree or disagree, but you know where im at with it.

[Brian]

34 minutes ago, Hancock said:

Seriously anybody got an answer for why people protect the freedom of speech for a group that openly hates?

 

Or why I suddenly became the expert of blackness here? Not that I don't mind edumacating someone y'all on what it means to be serious a person of color. But the point  I try to get across is racism is bad because it causes separateness, an stops humanity from unifying to do awesome things like world peace or exploring the stars, or solving homeless an food issues globally. When I mention that people drop out the conversation, like they're isn't anything to argue with so they disappear. I'm not here to argue. I'm not being sarcastic with my questions. I'm asking for the truth. 

I'm not expecting you to be an expert on "blackness", just asking you to examine your own beliefs.  That's why I ask you questions which begin with a phrase like "What do you think..." or "What do you believe..."

 

See how that works?  I am repeatedly and consistently asking YOU to examine your own thoughts and beliefs on an issue about which you understandably have strong emotions and about which you apparently have unrecognized baggage.  This is why, you may recall, I explicitly told you that you are not currently in a frame of mind in which you can have an honest and rational discussion, and I told you I would leave you alone on the topic -- out of kindness to you.  You responded with a rant about my inability to understand reality.

 

<shrug>

Edited August 24, 2017 by Brian

[Brian]

2 minutes ago, Hancock said:

I've been discussing white racists cause they were in the rally. You keep attempting to get me to defend the African-American views or keep insinuating I've got antiwhite racist views. I've said racism itself is the ensuing our humanity, our unifying an being what we can be as a collective.

 

Why am I a moral authority? I'm just me, I'm voicing my views. I point out what is clear to me from life experiences an just my personal views, I don't hold any office of moral judge. If it hits home an there's stuff in yourself you feel isn't right, then it doesn't have to do much with me, so the attempts at projecting are self denial.

 

You support free speech, yet keep picking apart and attacking what I'm saying because I don't agree with your views, then you even claim that's what I'm doing, when it's apparent your the one with the chip on his shoulder with anything i post on this thread. 

 

Again dude you're grasping at straws to insult me. The issue is bigger than us. I dont feel racist groups should be legal, they should be treated like a lot of gang members an sent to jail. Just because they use the legal system an stay within inches of the law, doesn't mean it is morally right. Check your conscience if you agree or disagree, but you know where im at with it.

Oh, yes -- I most certainly know where you're at with it.  The question is, do you?

 

[Hancock]

Just now, Brian said:

I'm not expecting you to be an expert on "blackness", just asking you to examine your own beliefs.  That's why I ask you questions which begin with a phrase like "What do you think..." or "What do you believe..."

 

See how that works?  I am repeatedly and consistently asking YOU to examine your own thoughts and beliefs on an issue about which you understandably have strong emotions and about which you apparently have unrecognized baggage.  This is why, you may recall, I explicitly told you that you are not currently a frame of mind in which you can have an honest and rational discussion, and I told you I would leave you alone on the topic -- out of kindness to you.  You responded with a rant about my inability to understand reality.

 

<shrug>

Lmao I mentioned your doing this in an earlier post in this thread. That you ask me my opinions to then pick them apart an attempt to use against me. You literally admitted it. Wow

 

Your attempts to get me mentally caught up are failing. An on top of gigabits obvious your trying to demean me, even inferring bout my mental state to cast doubt on what I say.

 

Dude you like me or something? I'm not interested, quit trying to ride my junk. Lol

 

 

[Hancock]

8 minutes ago, Brian said:

Oh, yes -- I most certainly know where you're at with it.  The question is, do you?

 

Again with games. You must really have problems to be coming at me so much, with the same busted bullcrap.

 

What happened to you not talking to me? I removed my reply to your post an edited your name out if that other one. Is your pride hurt that much you try to mess with me? 

For whatever you feel I did to you, I apologize. I mean you no harm, nor disrespect. We good now ?

Edited August 24, 2017 by Hancock

[Hancock]

To Brian, on reflecting on your behavior towards me I feel I should add that I understand my viewpoint. I can disagree with others an still be friends. It's a skill I developed because people to me are more than their views of the world.

If you truly misunderstand that I'm consciously aware an know where I'm coming from, I do.  I even understand your views. I just do not agree.

 

Anyhow here's a great song

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Hancock said:

Seriously anybody got an answer for why people protect the freedom of speech for a group that openly hates?

 

Or why I suddenly became the expert of blackness here? Not that I don't mind edumacating someone y'all on what it means to be serious a person of color. But the point  I try to get across is racism is bad because it causes separateness, an stops humanity from unifying to do awesome things like world peace or exploring the stars, or solving homeless an food issues globally. When I mention that people drop out the conversation, like they're isn't anything to argue with so they disappear. I'm not here to argue. I'm not being sarcastic with my questions. I'm asking for the truth. 

 

Hancock,

 

Free speech is fundamental.  If we take it away because we don`t agree with someone or some group (like the KKK) then freedom for all people is at risk.  Supporting free speech for white supremacists is not the same as supporting white supremacists.  I believe all people should be able to speak freely, even those whose opinions I abhor the most.

 

In your first reply back to me in this thread you said "your kind of idealism is the worst there is."  In a subsequent thread you claimed I did something racist by mentioning that the poet, Claudia Rankine, is black.  Let`s just say we weren`t off to a very good start as potential Daobums friends.  Honestly, I felt a little hurt by your comments.  But here`s the point: even though I didn`t like what you said, I don`t think anybody should try to shut you up.  I believe in Free Speech for Hancock, and I`d even carry a sign.  You have a right to be here, and to voice whatever opinions you care to.  Everybody does.  

 

I don`t think, by the way, that anybody considers you an expert on blackness here.  You are an expert on your own experience, as we all are.  We are all educating each other. If you are black (you haven`t exactly said, or maybe I just missed it) that certainly gives you a valuable perspective on the question of racism.  Still, most of us have experiences and opinions around this issue and everybody deserves to be heard.  

 

I do agree with you that many people, including myself, make "subconscious" judgments about people based on appearances, including race.  If I may be so bold, I`d wager that you do it too.  We need to become aware of these tendencies within ourselves if we`re going to have any luck in treating people fairly.  

 

As an aside, I also like your emphasis on personal story as opposed to philosophical argument.  You point out that sometimes philosophical argument can get a little "dry" and sometimes lacks "soul."  I agree.  Not everyone is comfortable sharing personal stories over the internet, and that choice is a personal matter.  Anyway, I love personal stories and appreciate it when people do share.

 

LL 

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by liminal_luke

[dawei]

19 minutes ago, Hancock said:

Again with games.

 

But two pages later... you still did not answer Brian's question... 

 

added:  Or did I miss it.

[Hancock]

Just now, dawei said:

 

But two pages later... you still did not answer Brian's question... 

 

added:  Or did I miss it.

You missed them.

[dawei]

8 minutes ago, Hancock said:

You missed them.

 

where did you answer this

 

'What does the subconscious black racist try to do?'

 

[liminal_luke]

39 minutes ago, Hancock said:

 

Dude you like me or something? I'm not interested, quit trying to ride my junk. Lol

 

 

The above is the best argument for the suppression of free speech we`ve heard yet. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by liminal_luke