The limits of free speech

[Hancock]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Hancock,

 

Free speech is fundamental.  If we take it away because we don`t agree with someone or some group (like the KKK) then freedom for all people is at risk.  Supporting free speech for white supremacists is not the same as supporting white supremacists.  I believe all people should be able to speak freely, even those whose opinions I abhor the most.

 

In your first reply back to me in this thread you said "your kind of idealism is the worst there is."  In a subsequent thread you claimed I did something racist by mentioning that the poet, Claudia Rankine, is black.  Let`s just say we weren`t off to a very good start as potential Daobums friends.  Honestly, I felt a little hurt by your comments.  But here`s the point: even though I didn`t like what you said, I don`t think anybody should try to shut you up.  I believe in Free Speech for Hancock, and I`d even carry a sign.  You have a right to be here, and to voice whatever opinions you care to.  Everybody does.  

 

I don`t think, by the way, that anybody consider you an expert on blackness here.  You are an expert on your own experience, as we all are.  We are all educating each other. If you are black (you haven`t exactly said, or maybe I just missed it) that certainly gives you a valuable perspective on the question of racism.  Still, most of us have experiences and opinions around this issue and everybody deserves to be heard.  

 

I do agree with you that many people, including myself, make "subconscious" judgments about people based on appearances, including race.  If I may be so bold, I`d wager that you do it too.  We need to become aware of these tendencies within ourselves if we`re going to have any luck in treating people fairly.  

 

As an aside, I also like your emphasis on personal story as opposed to philosophical argument.  You point out that sometimes philosophical argument can get a little "dry" and sometimes lacks "soul."  I agree.  Not everyone is comfortable sharing personal stories over the internet, and that choice is a personal matter.  Anyway, I love personal stories and appreciate it when people share.

 

LL 

 

 

I don't believe hate groups should be able to speak freely. My view is my view. What you say you'll protect a racist freedom of speech, is like hearing someone say they'll protect a pedophile's right to being released after a jail sentence. To me, those are wrong. I think those monsters should be jailed for life, regardless of their rehabilitation but people wanting to have things equal, say they do their time they get out freely.

That idealism that we are all equal is just not how it is in the world as it is today. People like hate groups, an criminals hide in the legal clauses of our society. It shows we'd rather feel good about ourselves than actually do the proper thing, as a country.

 

I called what you did racist, I did not say you are racist. I just called it out.

 

I dont make subconscious judgements but that's from my training when dealing with people.

 

An buddy, I didn't mean to injure you in any way. I sincerely apologize. We cool?

 

[Hancock]

2 hours ago, Hancock said:

 

To add, most black racists I've met, hate white people because of the indignities forced on them in the present. Things are different now, but still not equal.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Hancock

[liminal_luke]

We`re cool, Hancock.  It`s understandable that you`d have strong feelings and views about white supremacist groups.

[Hancock]

2 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

We`re cool, Hancock.  It`s understandable that you`d have strong feelings and views about white supremacist groups.

It's bout all racism.

 

I'm beyond the point of white, Asian, black, Hispanic, etc racism is something I just disagree with.

 

I've discussed white racism most because I was speaking from my experiences. I've mentioned this several times throughout that it's racism that's the enemy. Not any particular side.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Hancock

[dawei]

2 minutes ago, Hancock said:

It's bout all racism.

 

I'm beyond the point of white, Asian, black, Hispanic, etc racism is something I just disagree with.

 

I've discussed white racism most because I was speaking from my experiences. I've mentioned this several times throughout that it's racism that's the enemy. Not any particular side.

 

Ok... thanks for pointing out where you slipped that in.  And I agree.

 

But hate groups can speak if the courts allow it.  My voice doesn't matter much in that decision. 

[Brian]

7 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

where did you answer this

 

'What does the subconscious black racist try to do?'

 

He responded by suggesting I am a closeted white supremacist who seeks to oppress him while simultaneously having a romantic attraction and secretly wanting to have sex with him.

[Hancock]

Just now, dawei said:

 

Ok... thanks for pointing out where you slipped that in.  And I agree.

 

But hate groups can speak if the courts allow it.  My voice doesn't matter much in that decision. 

Whether you think your voice matters or not, it does.

 

You probably know that story bout the boy an starfish.

 

A storm washed up a bunch of starfish on the beach. An old man walk a the beach am sees a boy throwing the starfish back into the ocean. The old man asked the boy why he was doing that, because there were too many an he couldn't save them all. The boy picked up one an threw it into the ocean an said, "I saved that one."

 

Other stories, Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat.

People lobby for gay rights. 

People lobby for women's rights.

 

That one person who seems to brighten everyone's day with their cheerful disposition, even when their personal life might be ruined they keep that smile for others.

 

Great examples of how we matter as individuals

[Hancock]

7 minutes ago, Brian said:

He responded by suggesting I am a closeted white supremacist who seeks to oppress him while simultaneously having a romantic attraction and secretly wanting to have sex with him.

You not into guys?

 

The way you me picking apart things playfully like u did I figure u might've been flirting.

 

I didn't call you racist.

[Brian]

7 minutes ago, Hancock said:

You not into guys?

 

The way you me picking apart things playfully like u did I figure u might've been flirting.

 

I didn't call you racist.

I'm just not that into you, Hancock.

[Hancock]

3 minutes ago, Brian said:

I'm just not that into you, Hancock.

Well you made a nice effort. 

[Brian]

4 minutes ago, Hancock said:

Well you made a nice effort. 

Naaah, you just misunderstand.

[MooNiNite]

3 hours ago, Brian said:

 

 

Wow it is almost completely relevant to today. 

 

Except for mohammad ali, he seems a little misguided and old fashioned. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by MooNiNite

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Hancock said:

You not into guys?

 

The way you me picking apart things playfully like u did I figure u might've been flirting.

 

I didn't call you racist.

You have strongly insinuated it repeatedly, Hancock.  I honestly don't think you are even aware you do it because it is a deep-seated prejudice.  Here's one example:

"Is it right or wrong to hate another group based on your opinions of their skin color or background. The answer is obvious to most everyone.

 

"Only those who secretly dance that line inside themselves argue for free speech and the right to peacefully protest for some inherently racist group."

 

In no uncertain terms, you are saying that anyone who believes in free speech and the right to peacefully protest secretly believes it is right to hate based on skin color.  I have been very clear, and had been very clear prior to you making this statement, in asserting that I believe in free speech and the right to peacefully assemble for EVERYONE regardless of whether I find their opinion abhorrent.

[Hancock]

3 minutes ago, Brian said:

You have strongly insinuated it repeatedly, Hancock.  I honestly don't think you are even aware you do it because it is a deep-seated prejudice.  Here's one example:

"Is it right or wrong to hate another group based on your opinions of their skin color or background. The answer is obvious to most everyone.

 

"Only those who secretly dance that line inside themselves argue for free speech and the right to peacefully protest for some inherently racist group."

 

In no uncertain terms, you are saying that anyone who believes in free speech and the right to peacefully protest secretly believes it is right to hate based on skin color.  I have been very clear, and had been very clear prior to you making this statement, in asserting that I believe in free speech and the right to peacefully assemble for EVERYONE regardless of whether I find their opinion abhorrent.

Ok here's what you want, I'm unreasonable, you're a racist Brian, an I don't know my own deep seated motives for my actions. You're better than I am and I am just somehow defective in my rationalization capability. Enjoy 

[Brian]

22 minutes ago, Hancock said:

Ok here's what you want, I'm unreasonable, you're a racist Brian, an I don't know my own deep seated motives for my actions. You're better than I am and I am just somehow defective in my rationalization capability. Enjoy 

As I've said, you misunderstand.

 

As I've also said, you are not in a place where you are able to have this conversation.

 

I'll leave this alone now.

[Hancock]

24 minutes ago, Brian said:

As I've said, you misunderstand.

 

As I've also said, you are not in a place where you are able to have this conversation.

 

I'll leave this alone now.

I understand perfectly, do you understand that?

 

You're trying to Oracle me.

 

Your telling me to understand why I talk an feel how I do. I've said I understand my self. But your refusing to hear it so you can make yourself feel important by saying I'm not in the place to understand it.

I got it, I just disagree with your views. But it's pointless to tell you this because you'll keep attempting to point out some fault in me, by using the words I say on here. It's how I've seen you antagonize people an even brought it up a bit ago to point out the underhanded bullying on the forums in another thread.

 

 

[Marblehead]

5 hours ago, Hancock said:

Your views are a bit culturally prejudice, however that you respect people of another way of thought is key. That's what's go I g to help people stop this racism stuff in the long run.

 

I was at a bank an a little boy jumped out the car and put on music an said, "Hey I'm like you." An began to dance. I asked him if he made any dances of his own, an he said he would try. I felt when bond with this kid who reached out to a total stranger an made a connection.

Yes it was racist on his part, but it also showed a breaking of racist programming. Defying an old way. It gives me hope.

Well, I don't think "culturally prejudice" is fair.  Biased I am and will not deny that.  I love Tex-Mex and Cajun music but do not like Rap or Hip-Hop.  

 

Yes, your experience with the kid was good but as you said, with racial undertones.  But then, I don't have a problem with such things.

 

And yes, the best way to cure any remaining problems is to talk with one another.  Most of us just want a fair shake at doing for our self and taking some kind of pride in what we have accomplished.

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

“Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear."

Harry Truman.

 

Why should we stop freedom of speech or silence hate groups when they do a good job of living in the past and ending it all on their own.

 

[Brian]

3 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

“Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear."

Harry Truman.

 

Why should we stop freedom of speech or silence hate groups when they do a good job of living in the past and ending it all on their own.

 

What, and let people make decisions for themselves???

 

Inconceivable!

[Aetherous]

Should Antifa have free speech, let's say if they organized a rally and had a leader speak, where they primarily called out for violence against police, but didn't provide a specific time in which to commit the violence?

[Hancock]

5 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Well, I don't think "culturally prejudice" is fair.  Biased I am and will not deny that.  I love Tex-Mex and Cajun music but do not like Rap or Hip-Hop.  

 

Yes, your experience with the kid was good but as you said, with racial undertones.  But then, I don't have a problem with such things.

 

And yes, the best way to cure any remaining problems is to talk with one another.  Most of us just want a fair shake at doing for our self and taking some kind of pride in what we have accomplished.

 

Yeah why do you like cajun an tended, but don't u like rap or hip-hop? If it's personal preference, look inside to where that personal preference is born from.

Chances are it's a sense of identification with who you feel yourself to be, an uphold that image by behaviour which confirms that self identity. It's something we all do automatically. But when we bring a cognizance to it, we find that we have a deeper sense of choices than the the kind we've done our whole life.

 

That's my personal view. As for culturally prejudice being fair, i didn't mean any offense to you personally. I apologise if it was coming across as rude.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

“Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear."

Harry Truman.

 

Why should we stop freedom of speech or silence hate groups when they do a good job of living in the past and ending it all on their own.

 

Because silencing hate groups, silences racism. Thereby over time removing it from mainstream an it's power of influence in the next generation. If it's taboo, an we become encouraged to accept each other based on the kind of person we are then racism dies out.

Unfortunately self awareness is not big, not many want to admit their way is wrong an thereby go thru the trouble of changing their behaviour.

 

4 hours ago, Brian said:

What, and let people make decisions for themselves???

 

Inconceivable!

People don't really think for themselves. They regurgitate old ideas in New ways, generation after generation til things either are killed out, die out, or change so drastically that the old ideal cannot fit i to the new paradigm.

 

Most people get a sense of security from being led. If faced with the pressures of serious choice, they tend to collapse. Our society promotes independent opinion but ever notice how those same independent people all follow similar views an join up to criticise or praise. Humans are social.

The independent aspect is usually what causes those who choose to be themselves regardless, hell or highwater, to be put on the outskirts of the social rung. Even then they're classified by others as odd, or not fitting into society.

We as an American society say one thing an do another, though our ideals are great, the follow thru is shitty.

 

52 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

Should Antifa have free speech, let's say if they organized a rally and had a leader speak, where they primarily called out for violence against police, but didn't provide a specific time in which to commit the violence?

 

If there was some way to show these hate groups the meaning of this koan I heard today for the first time but immediately understood. Thank you I Peng!!!

 

Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind.
One said, “The flag moves.”
The other said, “The wind moves.”
They argued back and forth but could not agree.
Hui-neng, the sixth patriarch, said: “Gentlemen! It is not the flag that moves. It is not the wind that moves. It is your mind that moves.”
The two monks were struck with awe.

[Marblehead]

6 hours ago, Hancock said:

Yeah why do you like cajun an tended, but don't u like rap or hip-hop? If it's personal preference, look inside to where that personal preference is born from.

Chances are it's a sense of identification with who you feel yourself to be, an uphold that image by behaviour which confirms that self identity. It's something we all do automatically. But when we bring a cognizance to it, we find that we have a deeper sense of choices than the the kind we've done our whole life.

 

That's my personal view. As for culturally prejudice being fair, i didn't mean any offense to you personally. I apologise if it was coming across as rude.

 

No problem.  I just needed to point out that I have very few, if any, prejudices any more in my life.  And I don't interact with people based on any kind of prejudice.

 

Yes, my music tastes require some form of harmony.  I find great harmony in Cajun and Tex-Mex music.  And yes, it is part of my personal history.  My first musical experiences were with Polka and Old Time Country music.  None of that was based in hate.

 

Yes, we all must be who we have become.  If our path hasn't led us to peace and contentment then I think we should change course.

 

Hating others without just cause must be a miserable way to live one's life.

 

 

 

[Hancock]

6 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

No problem.  I just needed to point out that I have very few, if any, prejudices any more in my life.  And I don't interact with people based on any kind of prejudice.

 

Yes, my music tastes require some form of harmony.  I find great harmony in Cajun and Tex-Mex music.  And yes, it is part of my personal history.  My first musical experiences were with Polka and Old Time Country music.  None of that was based in hate.

 

Yes, we all must be who we have become.  If our path hasn't led us to peace and contentment then I think we should change course.

 

Hating others without just cause must be a miserable way to live one's life.

 

 

 

Exactly what I'm saying. Hate breeds misery in general.

 

Hey since you like country what do you think of this song? One of my personal favorites.

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

5 minutes ago, Hancock said:

Exactly what I'm saying. Hate breeds misery in general.

 

Hey since you like country what do you think of this song? One of my personal favorites.

 

Great that we finally attained an understanding.

 

I had actually never heard the song before.  Good song though.  I stopped listening to Country music back in the late 1950s when Rock-A-Billy split from Rock'n'Roll.  I just didn't like the path the industry was taking the Country artists.

 

 

[Hancock]

11 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Great that we finally attained an understanding.

 

I had actually never heard the song before.  Good song though.  I stopped listening to Country music back in the late 1950s when Rock-A-Billy split from Rock'n'Roll.  I just didn't like the path the industry was taking the Country artists.

 

 

Wow, I never got into the know how of music industry politics, though I aS offered a job at a studio because the guy liked my personality an said I reminded him of himseLf when he was younger. I explained to him that i had ear trauma an turned down his offer. Good times. Generally for me if i just like a song  then i kinda explore it.

That artist's Toby Keith, has done work with Willy Nelson.

 

Since you haven't been into country music in a while, here's another good one to me. For me that song has the meaning of life in it. When it says, "If you're doing what you're able, that's something to be proud of."

 

 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Hancock