Zhenren: The Authentic Person

[Wu Ming Jen]

It maybe that authentic or real humans have no idea they are so and to be labeled by another person as so is a POV by another person not by oneself.

 

I agree obviously the vast portion of humanity are caught in the net of duality but their authenticity evolving remains?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

5 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

It maybe that authentic or real humans have no idea they are so and to be labeled by another person as so is a POV by another person not by oneself.

 

I agree obviously the vast portion of humanity are caught in the net of duality but their authenticity evolving remains?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, good point. But I'm still at odds with this real humans, vs fake humans.  My dear mum , being Catholic , strove for virtue , everyone I know ,, I believe , strives for virtue and this author , says my mum isnt a real human. When you say ,' caught in a net of duality ' ,I accept it could be true , and hold the idea in abeyance, but in the mean time, I don't find it offensive, , its not denying her status as a human being. 

[dawei]

20 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

It maybe that authentic or real humans have no idea they are so and to be labeled by another person as so is a POV by another person not by oneself.

 

I agree obviously the vast portion of humanity are caught in the net of duality but their authenticity evolving remains?

 

Likely real[ized] is more the meaning as I think in daoist terms, it is a state of being; one is in unity and thus personifies the Great Way.   The opposite then is not a fake person but simply unrealized or not living in unity as the highest expression of Way.   Thus, duality is not the beacon he shines but the light of the Way. 

[Wu Ming Jen]

20 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Likely real[ized] is more the meaning as I think in daoist terms, it is a state of being; one is in unity and thus personifies the Great Way.   The opposite then is not a fake person but simply unrealized or not living in unity as the highest expression of Way.   Thus, duality is not the beacon he shines but the light of the Way. 

Love it.

[Geof Nanto]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Likely real[ized] is more the meaning as I think in daoist terms, it is a state of being; one is in unity and thus personifies the Great Way.   The opposite then is not a fake person but simply unrealized or not living in unity as the highest expression of Way.   Thus, duality is not the beacon he shines but the light of the Way. 

 

Yes, this is correct – but about this state no more can be said. What concerns me personally is the process of change; of inner transformation. That’s what I liked about Scott Bradley’s description. In a somewhat similar vein, here's a description of Akira Kurosawa’s film Sanshiro Sugata; aka Judo Saga.   (Akira Kurosawa is regarded as one of the most important and influential filmmakers in the history of cinema. Judo Saga was his first film and it culminates in a judo battle between Suagata and Higaki.)

 

“The hero is a person actively engaged in becoming themselves - not a very reassuring sight. The villain, on the other hand, has already become something. Everything about Higaki suggests that he has arrived. There is not a wasted gesture, not an uncalculated movement. He has found what is to his advantage and acts accordingly. Sugata, by comparison, is all thumbs.

 

“Kurosawa’s preference is the preference we all have for the fully formed person. In an ordinary film this person would be the hero. But it is not and, despite his admiration, Kurosawa has told us why. One of the attributes of all his heroes, beginning with Sugataka, is that they are all informed in just this way. For this reason, all of his pictures are about education - the education of the hero.

 

“After their superb judo battle (between Sugata and Higki) one might expect the film to end with some kind of statement that Sugata has at last grown up, that he has arrived, that he has become something - the great judo champion. This would be the logical Western conclusion to a film about the education of a hero.

 

“Kurosawa, however, has seen this cannot be true. A hero who actually becomes is tantamount to a villain - for this was the only tangible aspect of the villain’s villainy. To suggest that peace, happiness, contentment, follows a single battle, no matter how important, is literally untrue - and would limit Sugata precisely because of the limitations suggested in the words ’happiness’ or ’judo champion’.”

 

In these terms a visible Zhenren would not be a true Zhenren but be like the 'villain' in the above account. I personally relate to the lines, “The hero is a person actively engaged in becoming themselves - not a very reassuring sight" and "all of his pictures are about education - the education of the hero."  However I'll add that along the way the hero must die; the real 'hero' emerges as the Dao - the hero that does nothing yet nothing remains undone.

[Stosh]

instruct. 

[dawei]

Kurosawa rocks...  during a particular phase of Life I read a lot about him... he told an incredibly story as a youth when Japan surrender...  most people expected the emperor to kill himself and most everyone in attendence was ready to follow... except he did the unthinkable... and surrendered his will.  Thank god as we got Kurosawa  

[doc benway]

On 8/18/2017 at 4:48 PM, Yueya said:

 

Yes, this is correct – but about this state no more can be said. What concerns me personally is the process of change; of inner transformation. That’s what I liked about Scott Bradley’s description. In a somewhat similar vein, here's a description of Akira Kurosawa’s film Sanshiro Sugata; aka Judo Saga.   (Akira Kurosawa is regarded as one of the most important and influential filmmakers in the history of cinema. Judo Saga was his first film and it culminates in a judo battle between Suagata and Higaki.)

 

Sanshiro Sugata is a wonderful film!

[liminal_luke]

On 16/8/2017 at 6:52 PM, Yueya said:

 

Authenticity is always possible just as and where we are. No ideal is required. To be honestly engaged with the mess that we are, to be sincerely at work in the process of self-cultivation, is itself authenticity. Being human is authenticity, where that humanity realizes itself as self-creative and dynamic.

 

 

Thanks for this Yueya!  I wanted to quote this final paragraph because it`s especially meaningful to me.

[blue eyed snake]

Thank you Yueya, I so like to read these kinds of concepts in easy to understand words, I shy away from the kind of texts that ask of me to learn a whole new language so to say.

 

On 8/17/2017 at 3:52 AM, Yueya said:

Although his is not conventional Daoist usage of the term Zhenren (真人), there's much I like in these thoughts on authenticity from Scott Bradley...... 
 

Zhenren: The Authentic Person  

 

Zhenren, a term apparently coined by Zhuangzi himself, signifies the fully realized human being. It is variously translated as "True Man", "Genuine Man", or "Real Man". Roger Ames prefers "Authentic Person" (Wandering at Ease in the Zhuangzi; Introduction). Among his reasons, is his belief that it more faithfully conveys the root meaning of zhen which implies authorship and transformation. In other words, the Authentic Person is someone in the continual process of creative self-disclosure (ziran) in relation to the ever-transforming world. "That is", he writes, "whatever the exemplar might be, he or she is one who is able to express personal integrity and uniqueness in the context of a transforming world."

 

about process and thus change

 

On 8/17/2017 at 3:52 AM, Yueya said:

 

If there were more than one Authentic Person in the world, they would be very different expressions of the same authenticity. This is because such a person would not have realized some pre-existent, fixed and ideal 'original nature' common to all, but the unique expression of her own particularity. And not only this, her expression would also be a consequence of her transforming along with her particular and unique environmental context. Human authenticity is not static, but ever-dynamic. It is not conformity to some ideal norm, but the creation of an absolutely unique, entirely self-specific norm. Nor is it accomplished in a self-contained vacuum, but in relation to the world of personal experience.

 

 

On 8/17/2017 at 3:52 AM, Yueya said:

 

We are called upon to emulate and aspire to Authentic Personhood. To do so is not to imagine being like someone else, but to apprehend the dynamic — creative and relational — that facilitates that transformation. The test of authenticity is integrity with respect to one's own particular expression of personhood.

 

Sifu once said: " do not try to become like me, try to become like yourself"

 

On 8/17/2017 at 3:52 AM, Yueya said:

 

The Authentic Person, moreover, has not "arrived", but is ever-evolving. Authenticity is ever-dynamic; if we can speak of possession, then this person is in possession of this dynamic, not of some imagined, fixed 'state of being'.

 

yes, and therefore sifu wants to be student with the students, ( even though in al our eyes he is master indeed) but to his eyes, he is not ' master,

master...that is his teacher

 

But he only came to be what he is now by continually doing this dynamic/that process, is still doing that.

 

 

On 8/17/2017 at 3:52 AM, Yueya said:

 

Yes, there are common, normative precipitants that manifest from this authenticity. Chief among these is freedom from the egoic identity, a presumption of a static, insular, and fixed self which must be protected from the transforming world at large.

 

Until some years ago, i did not get that, in fact, I only get it because i see Sifu, who is, if anything, more human then any human I've ever met. I always understood those words as " not having a identity, to sort of disassociate from that feeling of ' self'

 

But it is not that, maybe the identity is still there, but it's importance has lessened greatly because the fear for the transforming world around, the fear for what other people think of our identity has dissolved to an ever growing amount. The re-activeness to other people and new circumstances is lessening. 

 

On 8/17/2017 at 3:52 AM, Yueya said:

 

 

And this manifests as freedom from the fear of loss, there being nothing to lose, and freedom from the acquisitive desire for merit and name (thinking oneself and being thought to be someone special), there being no aspect of self requiring support. These are the signs of authenticity because they are also what make it possible.

 

yeah...but maybe not manifests as...but something like  a process, when the self-importance diminishes the fear of loss does to. But it is also the other way round. When we do not fear, then the self-importance tends to diminish ( maybe?) I see it more as a circling process.

 

But indeed, what we can observe in people who have traveled this road further, is that they do not trouble themselves wit what may or may not come.

 

and, seems to me that humiity, is something that is ' attained' along the way, not a goal at all. Just growing with the lessening of the egodriven behaviour. As a balance, one becomes larger, the other diminishes.

 

On 8/17/2017 at 3:52 AM, Yueya said:

 

Authenticity is always possible just as and where we are. No ideal is required. To be honestly engaged with the mess that we are, to be sincerely at work in the process of self-cultivation, is itself authenticity. Being human is authenticity, where that humanity realizes itself as self-creative and dynamic.

 

(from http://ramblingtaoist.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/zhenren-authentic-person.html )
 

 

yes, I'm a mess,

but to be able to say and really mean that, is already a step on the way to being " self-authentic" or so it seems to me.

I could not have said that some years ago, but now i find i can say it, mean it, and not feel troubled by it.

[rene]

On 08/17/2017 at 4:13 PM, Stosh said:

 Ok Wudao, whats your affirmative assertion?  All men are humble when authentic? Or, authenticity may not be humility. Or.... 

 

" aint no sunshine when shes gone,

only darkness every day

an this house just aint no home ,

anytime she goes away... 

 

Stosh, hi

 

Humility might arise on its own, but, to me the words 'authentic human' refer to an internal integrity. Not 'integrity' in the common usage - but - hmmm...okay. You know how a right-built building is said to have structural integrity? Like that. More about being than doing. Being who we are in our hearts is the truest expression of our own authenticity, and informs the choices we make.

 

I had more words but seem to have lost them on my travels. (-: Good morning!

 

 

 

[shazlor]

5 hours ago, WuDao said:

but, to me the words 'authentic human' refer to an internal integrity. Not 'integrity' in the common usage - but - hmmm...okay. You know how a right-built building is said to have structural integrity? Like that. More about being than doing. Being who we are in our hearts is the truest expression of our own authenticity, and informs the choices we make.

+I

-I

 

[rene]

30 minutes ago, shazlor said:

+I

-I

 

 

Oh shazlor! Thanks for posting that vid. Meat golems are the perfect descriptor of what an 'authentic human' is NOT. Watched the whole thing; so worth it.

[doc benway]

11 hours ago, WuDao said:

 

Stosh, hi

 

Humility might arise on its own, but, to me the words 'authentic human' refer to an internal integrity. Not 'integrity' in the common usage - but - hmmm...okay. You know how a right-built building is said to have structural integrity? Like that. More about being than doing. Being who we are in our hearts is the truest expression of our own authenticity, and informs the choices we make.

 

I had more words but seem to have lost them on my travels. (-: Good morning!

 

 

 

 Nicely said.

 

For me there is also an aspect to authenticity that arises with the peeling away of layers of confusion. 

The authentic is more deeply connected to our core, less disturbed by superficial emotions, concepts, and such.

The more authentic we are, the more we express and manifest the Dao without getting in its way - it's related to De, Ziran, Wuwei. Humility is already there because the ego is less prominent and needy.

 

[rene]

11 minutes ago, steve said:

 Nicely said.

 

For me there is also an aspect to authenticity that arises with the peeling away of layers of confusion. 

 

 

That could be, sure (-:

 

11 minutes ago, steve said:

The authentic is more deeply connected to our core, less disturbed by superficial emotions, concepts, and such.

 

Agree, yes! To me, core manifests as the authentic.

 

11 minutes ago, steve said:

The more authentic we are, the more we express and manifest the Dao without getting in its way - it's related to De, Ziran, Wuwei.

 

Very much related; especially to De, imo, for the closer to authentic, the higher the efficacy. Ziran is the why, Wuwei is the how, we do what we do.

 

11 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Humility is already there because the ego is less prominent and needy.

 

 

It is a simple path, unencumbered.

 

Nice post, Steve; your words are always enjoyed. (-:

[Stosh]

Good morning, belated. 

Being that the solar eclipse isnt here yet , it, being a convenient milestone, and this being an outstanding dialog , Ill just say this.. What one might call superficial, is in fact a summary of ones sentiments. 

Authenticity, does coincide with ideas about ones core identity. 

Taken together, these two ideas do not jive, because your ego is unique to you personally. It gives you individual identity, and without it , your supposed core is undifferentiated sentience. which one cannot fully exemplify and live. 

This meatbag and ego are me as an individual. 

I slowly woke tis morning, and was already involved in an internal fuss, Id like to put that paradigm away, and it wont come easy. and I dont think I can act reflexively to do so. 

[rene]

2 hours ago, Stosh said:

Good morning, belated. 

Being that the solar eclipse isnt here yet , it, being a convenient milestone, and this being an outstanding dialog , Ill just say this.. What one might call superficial, is in fact a summary of ones sentiments. 

Authenticity, does coincide with ideas about ones core identity. 

 

Nicely said! And, I agree with all - provided 'superficial' holds no negative connotation.

 

2 hours ago, Stosh said:

Taken together, these two ideas do not jive, because your ego is unique to you personally. It gives you individual identity, and without it , your supposed core is undifferentiated sentience. which one cannot fully exemplify and live. 

This meatbag and ego are me as an individual. 

 

Also agree. Many here focus on ego as something to eliminate or substantially reduce; that one must choose between body and soul, between manifest and mystery. My take is that ego, exactly as you describe it, is a natural and necessary part of everything I am.

 

2 hours ago, Stosh said:

I slowly woke tis morning, and was already involved in an internal fuss, Id like to put that paradigm away, and it wont come easy. and I dont think I can act reflexively to do so. 

 

For me, the two do indeed jive: the undifferentiated becoming authentic human in our unique core; both present, unboundaried with each other and arising through our meatbags - informing how we interact with life - in full support. IF we trust it, and let it happen.

 

Or so it seems to me. (-:

[silent thunder]

Potent conversation.  I've never understood, or embraced the villification of ego.  That kind of self abuse runs counter to my nature.  To me there is no ego as a thing, ego to me, is an intent of inner movement... toward or away from conditions i am attracted to, or repelled by.  My ego, along with my monkey mind, have a useful purpose.  Excellent servants, bad masters.

 

But rather than wage war on it to create balance, my take is of engaging in a dance and healthy nurturing... in order to embrace the flow of life as a whole and cultivate full balance and affect a full natural healthy life experience.

 

The all too common blaspheming, abusive attitude and denigration of the ego gets no traction in my life.  Nor do I resonate with, or tolerate well the sense of loathing and rejection of the body that is so readily and often fiercely embraced among spiritual institutions and many individuals.  The body to me, is as spiritual as the forest, as the light, as the shadow... as the breath.  To me.

 

Hating and abusing the ego is as hurtfully useless to me as lighting part of my self on fire in an attempt to warm up on a cold night.  It seems a trait imbued in a people saturated in obsession with identifying and separating parts, coupled with violent, warlike tendencies born of fear and a desire to control.

[rene]

19 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Potent conversation.  I've never understood, or embraced the villification of ego.  That kind of self abuse runs counter to my nature.  To me there is no ego as a thing, ego to me, is an intent of inner movement... toward or away from conditions i am attracted to, or repelled by.  My ego, along with my monkey mind, have a useful purpose.  Excellent servants, bad masters.

 

But rather than wage war on it to create balance, my take is of engaging in a dance and healthy nurturing... in order to embrace the flow of life as a whole and cultivate full balance and affect a full natural healthy life experience.

 

The all too common blaspheming, abusive attitude and denigration of the ego gets no traction in my life.  Nor do I resonate with, or tolerate well the sense of loathing and rejection of the body that is so readily and often fiercely embraced among spiritual institutions and many individuals.  The body to me, is as spiritual as the forest, as the light, as the shadow... as the breath.  To me.

 

Hating and abusing the ego is as hurtfully useless to me as lighting part of my self on fire in an attempt to warm up on a cold night.  It seems a trait imbued in a people saturated in obsession with identifying and separating parts, coupled with violent, warlike tendencies born of fear and a desire to control.

 

Well said, and agree.

 

Spiritual institutions cant sell you a cure without first convincing you that you are sick.

[Stosh]

Oo eclipse almost here , partial 80 percent or so. I made the cardboard box viewer , and it looks like itll work pretty good , ,when clouds passed in front of the sun , you could see the margins extending beyond the solar circle.. and I can still see. 

[Brian]

Appalachian State University has the Mountaineers as team name.  Many years ago, a group of student researchers set out to document what it really means to be a "mountaineer" so they began seeking out and asking old-timers from deep in the hollars.

 

One of them paused a moment (and probably spat a little baccy juice, although I am just speculating) and said, "Weeel... Jes be yosef."

 

Today, Yosef is the mascot's name.

 

 

(My undergraduate Alma Mater)

[rene]

[rene]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

Oo eclipse almost here , partial 80 percent or so. I made the cardboard box viewer , and it looks like itll work pretty good , ,when clouds passed in front of the sun , you could see the margins extending beyond the solar circle.. and I can still see. 

 

Yay!

 

Eclipse all but gone here, we're in the 90% zone. The quality of light increased even though it got a little twilighty out. Watched it through hubby's arc welding helmet... and the coolest thing was the thousands of eclipse images filtered through the trees all around us on the ground everywhere! Yeahhh!!!!

 

 

[9th]

4 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Potent conversation.  I've never understood, or embraced the villification of ego.  That kind of self abuse runs counter to my nature.  To me there is no ego as a thing, ego to me, is an intent of inner movement... toward or away from conditions i am attracted to, or repelled by.  My ego, along with my monkey mind, have a useful purpose.  Excellent servants, bad masters.

 

Hating and abusing the ego is as hurtfully useless to me as lighting part of my self on fire in an attempt to warm up on a cold night.  It seems a trait imbued in a people saturated in obsession with identifying and separating parts, coupled with violent, warlike tendencies born of fear and a desire to control.

 

The ego loves to hate itself just as much as it loves to love itself, while at the very same time it also hates to love itself just as much as it hates to hate itself.

 

Its all quite fascinating, really.

[Geof Nanto]

The term 'ego' is used in distinctly different senses. Here are a couple of dictionary definitions.....

 

Ego 
1. the self of an individual person; the conscious subject
2. (Psychoanalysis) conscious mind, based on perception of the environment from birth onwards.
3. one's image of oneself; morale: to boost one's ego. 
4. egotism; conceit
[C19: from Latin: I]

 

Ego 
1. An individual's awareness of what constitutes his or her essential nature and distinguishes him or her from all others: self.
2. A regarding of oneself with undue favor: conceit, egoism, egotism, narcissism, pride, vainglory, vainness, vanity.
Slang: ego trip.
3. A sense of one's own dignity or worth: pride, self-esteem, self-regard, self-respect.

 

Obviously from these various definitions, 'ego' in some usages is something we all have and need and is vital for our well-being. These are not the sense in which Scott Bradley was using the term and that's why I didn't really want to pursue discussion suggesting he was. His reference was to ego in the popular sense where ego means the extent to which one thinks overly highly of oneself; egotism; conceit, regarding oneself with undue favour etc. 

 

However I appreciate the effort people here have made to make clear the importance on ego in senses other than popular usage and hope that's resolved any confusion.