Pillars of Bliss

[Cameron]

Good suggestion, Chris. I've found through my own practice that mindfulness meditation and kunlun arent in the same category; the more mindful I am, the less happens.

 

Silicon, glad that helped you! For me, the closing posture with heels raised was a better opening practice than trying to visualization, which no matter how 'comfortable' I was with it, it still felt contrived. As in if kunlun was a letting go thing, it seemed contrary to try some sort of visualization to 'get in the mood,' as it were.

 

 

From what I understand the highest practice in Zen, Shikantaza, basically is just awareness of whatever is present. Kunlun seems to speed up the process but doing some stillness practice is good to.

 

Probably the 20 min stillness period after Kunlun is a good start. Except I am usually rotating around in clockwise circles the whole time so I don't think it can be technically called stillness.

 

I will probably add standing meditation in with Level 1 at some point this year. For me standing meditation is standing zen and probably a great complement to Kunlun and Red Phoenix(and stillness practice, zazen etc)

[Starjumper]

........... with my legs still bouncing. Usually after a few minutes I go back to the kunlun posture.

 

So am I correct in assuming that this Kunlun practice consists of bouncing up and down while holding the ball?

[Cameron]

I don't know if it is called holding the ball. Maybe other schools call it that. I have not heard Max call it holding the ball so I won't. But you take a position, hold it, things start to move spontaneously(arms and legs, or just legs sometimes).

 

Red Phoenix is even simpler.

[joeblast]

I like to start with stillness...things just go from there!

[Starjumper]

I found this guy Max's website. http://www.kunlunbliss.com/index.html I just think you guys should have some reservations about this and maybe not waste your money going to a seminar, unless you have a lot of money to waste, that is. I'm afraid I need to toot my own horn to provide some backing for my opinion here, but I spent six years of intensive training learning a real Nei Kung system from a very advanced and powerful master, and due to my perspective it looks like Max is a flake, liar, and bullshitter ala used car salesman, and a fairy too =) I realize that many of you don't have have access to a real master, or aren't motivated enough to go to one, or wouldn't be able to stomach it if you did, so you end up going from one seminar to the next. Just beware of this guy's claims. I don't have the time now but I will explain later what it is about the claims and explanations here and on the website which set off alarm bells in me.

 

I don't know if it is called holding the ball. Maybe other schools call it that. I have not heard Max call it holding the ball so I won't. But you take a position, hold it, things start to move spontaneously(arms and legs, or just legs sometimes).

 

Red Phoenix is even simpler.

 

Concerning this posture, could you or someone describe it for me please. No doubt Max makes it sound like some secret special deal and people feel reluctant to relate it, but I've learned most if not all the ten thousand postures and it probably includes the one in question. You can be fairly certain that one single posture really isn't that special and that there are several that will do the same thing. I'm guessing that to cause shaking and other movement that it must be a pretty wide stance with knees bent. I'm guessing that due to the shoulder pain people are mentioning that the hands and arms are either overhead or in some awkward position??

 

Concerning the posture name of holding the ball, there are many variations, but it is sometimes called embracing the tree and it is similar to post stance, horse stance would be one too if you changed the angle of your wrists. The Various types of holding the ball meditations (sitting or standing) are on of the hallmarks of Taoist meditations.

 

If you want to learn the real thing you'll need to plan on living in Seattle for four years, at least.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Yoda]

Starjumper,

 

You are late to the party on this one! We've plowed this field many times over and everyone's pretty much settled into their respective camps by now.

 

Mantra68 and Max have asked that we not spill the beans on the practice details, so you'd have to pony up the cash or borrow a copy.

 

From what I can tell from reading people's experiences with Kunlun, if they were negative about it from the start they will stay negative but if they were neutral or positive they'll have a good experience with it. So I'm not sure if it would be worth your time researching.

 

Personally, I was extremely impressed by Max and the practice. While I haven't attained enlightenment, levitated, etc in my 50+/- days I've been doing it, it's a ***seriously*** nice practice.

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[Cameron]

Starjumper tell us what you really think

 

From what I understand Max was trained from the time he was like 6 by a Wudang Taoist and also trained with a Mao Shan Taoist for something like 30 years.

 

I won't be moving to Seattle any time soon and am happy with what I am presently studying, thanks.

[The inner Light]

dear starjumper,

 

thanks for your sharing. to tell someone is a liar and present something supposed better is what politicians do every day. in general i think we all as being seekers should do it more respectful.

 

if it is your opinion it is ok. i personally also do not really like that max presents his style as if it was from some ancient secret master but it is from his spiritual sister jenny lamb (i dont know if it was her name). also i think it is not needed to on his video throw people around (and give the impression of using it for martial arts purposes) and then write on the homepage that he would never teach this kind of powers and it is even harmful to do it. of course like that a person attracts people that are "power seekers" or gives a little bad taste for people who do not like this kind of getting attention. i personally think that even without all those things max would attract lots of people. maybe he overdoes it because everybody does it anyway and in the end people will find out the "truth" when they meet him. so far all feedback was very positive. because his system works good on people as you can read in this forum. also his representative mantra here in this forum is a warm hearted help for everyone. it is good to practice something and have answers right away!

 

i dont think people jump here from one thing to another. i think they just try what is being offered. that is ok. unless you dont try you wont know.

 

i personally study a specific qi gong style for many years and martial arts for i dont know how long. i agree that there are other styles that will create the same effects like kunlun. but kunlun makes a very easy approach to this. and so far most people (including me since about one and a half weeks) have had positive effects. so it is good to wish all of them luck because we are in the end somehow all connected. if you are good i am good. that is how it works in my opinion.

 

so it is very good that people like you sometimes come up and challenge an opinion. i just dont think it is needed to call people liars and things like that and then come up with something "better".

there are so many things offered in the world. who knows what is better for whom? everybody gets the teacher he or she deserves and needs.

 

for me right now kunlun is a great aditional technique that supports my normal training routine in a great way. so even if max was a liar for me it doesnt matter. he is offering something to the world to taste. either you taste it or you dont. if other people are enjoying the meal we should let them eat with all our heart. if we have to offer something better we can do so. they of course can decide for themselves what to eat. but we shouldnt make their cook bad if we see they enjoy the meal. then we can be happy in more than one way. we enjoy our meal and enjoy how they enjoy theirs.

 

that is at least my opinion.

 

loce and peace to you and good luck on your way!

[Starjumper]

OK, your points are well taken. A used car salesman does sell functioning cars after all.

 

Maybe I can get a show of hands here as to who is in the for or against camp.

 

One of the pages on the website I posted above has a 'scientific explanation' of how it works, and that 'science' really bites. It is one of his lies, if he doesn't really know science he shouldn't use fake explanations.

 

Another thing is that Nei Kung systems are systems which contain hundreds, if not thousands, of techniques. It is true that nei kung systems contain some techniques which are not well known among the chi kung community, but if someone shows you a couple of exercises from nei Kung then that is not nei kung. It's a couple of chi kung exercises. So that is another and very unfortunate lie, because it can create whole groups of people who have been misled into thinking they are doing nei kung and that they know what it is when the fact is that they are missing most of the boat. Nei kung really is a fabulous thing and if you learn and do the whole thing it can take you all the way to the mountaintop, and quickly too. What Max is teaching is not nei kung, it's a lie, it's a few chi kung techniques put together in a very simplistic chi kung system. He's only calling it nei kung because it's popular with the crowd that rushes hither and yon to different seminars, it's the latest and greatest way to make $$$.

 

Another thing which is really weird is he said he won't teach people who have palm energy because it can be used to hurt others! OK, that sounds nice, but keep this in mind. All real chi kung masters have this palm energy and it is normally used for healing others and it is essential for nei kung to work on self healing as well. All accomplished nei kung practitioners should have this palm energy. Therefore it seems the only reason for him to say such a thing is because he's afraid of people who knows the real thing.

 

Also, I've been studying internal arts for thirty years too, with several high level masters, and my nei kung teacher is one of the hidden masters. ...and, my teacher can beat up his teacher =)

 

Not saying his not an impressively nice guy, used car salesmen are very nice.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Guest winpro07]

Are all Chi Kung Masters so assuming ?

OK, your points are well taken. A used car salesman does sell functioning cars after all.

 

Maybe I can get a show of hands here as to who is in the for or against camp.

 

One of the pages on the website I posted above has a 'scientific explanation' of how it works, and that 'science' really bites. It is one of his lies, if he doesn't really know science he shouldn't use fake explanations.

 

Another thing is that Nei Kung systems are systems which contain hundreds, if not thousands, of techniques. It is true that nei kung systems contain some techniques which are not well known among the chi kung community, but if someone shows you a couple of exercises from nei Kung then that is not nei kung. It's a couple of chi kung exercises. So that is another and very unfortunate lie, because it can create whole groups of people who have been misled into thinking they are doing nei kung and that they know what it is when the fact is that they are missing most of the boat. Nei kung really is a fabulous thing and if you learn and do the whole thing it can take you all the way to the mountaintop, and quickly too. What Max is teaching is not nei kung, it's a lie, it's a few chi kung techniques put together in a very simplistic chi kung system. He's only calling it nei kung because it's popular with the crowd that rushes hither and yon to different seminars, it's the latest and greatest way to make $$$.

 

Another thing which is really weird is he said he won't teach people who have palm energy because it can be used to hurt others! OK, that sounds nice, but keep this in mind. All real chi kung masters have this palm energy and it is normally used for healing others and it is essential for nei kung to work on self healing as well. All accomplished nei kung practitioners should have this palm energy. Therefore it seems the only reason for him to say such a thing is because he's afraid of people who knows the real thing.

 

Also, I've been studying internal arts for thirty years too, with several high level masters, and my nei kung teacher is one of the hidden masters. ...and, my teacher can beat up his teacher =)

 

Not saying his not an impressively nice guy, used car salesmen are very nice.

[Trunk]

Starjumper,

 

You are late to the party on this one! We've plowed this field many times over...

Well said.

 

Starjumper,

 

You might use TTB's search on "kunlun" and scan a few of the threads that pop up. That might give you an idea of what we've already been through * whew! * on this.

 

btw, your avatar is a hoot.

 

Trunk

[Mal]

btw, your avatar is a hoot.

 

It is cool......... but I liked Pia Mei more

 

(probably because I find Pia Mei a bit scary)

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Star Jumper,

 

I will tell you the Kunlun practise cause i am not a Kunlun player! Sit on a chair hold the ball right hand on top near the throat chakra and the left hand at the dan tian. Lift your heels of the ground and wait till things happen, your legs may shake be it from the tension and nervous system or what they call Kunlun energy lol (chi).

 

That was level 1! If nothing is happening like getting stuck on a tennis court or doing weird yoga movements, laughing, crying, yelling, jumping about screaming orgasms, then start to rotate the abdomin clockwise i think he says and this will start it off for you???

 

Now, as i get my popcorn!

[Starjumper]

Well said.

 

Starjumper,

 

You might use TTB's search on "kunlun" and scan a few of the threads that pop up. That might give you an idea of what we've already been through * whew! * on this.

 

btw, your avatar is a hoot.

 

Trunk

 

 

OK, I'll try a search, hopefully I'm covering some territory which is new here.

 

Glad you like the avatar, it is fun. I think I'll switch to Pei Mei for awhile for Mal

[Mal]

Glad you like the avatar, it is fun. I think I'll switch to Pei Mei for awhile for Mal

 

[Starjumper]

Now, as i get my popcorn!

 

Yes, popcorn, a good idea. And thank you so much for describing the posture.

 

 

Star Jumper,

 

I will tell you the Kunlun practise cause i am not a Kunlun player! Sit on a chair hold the ball right hand on top near the throat chakra and the left hand at the dan tian. Lift your heels of the ground and wait till things happen, your legs may shake be it from the tension and nervous system or what they call Kunlun energy lol (chi).

 

That was level 1!

 

ROFL, no kidding??? What a huge clock of clap that is! That guy is more of a fairy than I originally thought. I teach the leg shaking in the first class, even to people who are just curious and checking it out without paying. The hand position is indeed one of the many 'holding the ball' postures, and it really isn't too special, it's second grade stuff. Leg shaking, kids do it automatically, hold your heels up and what happens? DUH, your feet start shaking, why not just tell people to shake in the first place? Because it makes it look like a big mystery, that's why. We just get on with the shaking and in a little while it becomes automatic. The shaking generates some energy, and you can use many different hand positions during it.

 

If people are going ga ga over that then it really is a sad situation. No wonder Max doesn't want real Nei Kung artists coming to his class, they'd feel like killing him for his lying cheating ways. No wonder lil Max is afraid of palm energy LOL.

 

So here we have some Bozo hyping some minor little practice and making a lot of money off of it. Now I'm jealous.

 

If nothing is happening like getting stuck on a tennis court or doing weird yoga movements, laughing, crying, yelling, jumping about screaming orgasms, then start to rotate the abdomen clockwise i think he says and this will start it off for you???

 

Sure it will, if you are very suggestible, but by then he has your money, so it's all good, does he give money back guarantees? This is another ten cent exercise, and it isn't nearly as good as the first one.

 

 

 

It is cool......... but I liked Pia Mei more

 

(probably because I find Pia Mei a bit scary)

 

Actually it's usually spelled Pei Mei, and it means White Eyebrow. The image appears stretched vertically so I'm going to take it out for now and adjust it. It looks like the avatar machine on here modifies all images so that they are 125 X 125 no matter what the original dimensions are.

 

Edited January 10, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Cameron]

 

Also, I've been studying internal arts for thirty years too, with several high level masters, and my nei kung teacher is one of the hidden masters. ...and, my teacher can beat up his teacher =)

 

Not saying his not an impressively nice guy, used car salesmen are very nice.

 

 

Well, it seems you have alot of experience and pretty much have your mind made up about Max.

 

I think there is something to the simplicity of just going deeply with 2 practices rather than hundreds of different techniques. I am not going to say one way is better then another. After training for 30 years you must have seen alot.

 

Well, we have gotten alot of positive feedback for kunlun I guess someone like Starjumper with a clearly anti-Kunlun(or Max) position adds to the conversations here.

 

You used some pretty strong words to express yourself..calling Max a liar? I would have to really, really,really get to know someone before using that sort of strong language over a public forum.

[xenolith]

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...kung&st=20#

 

Post #29. And that which it links to.

Edited January 10, 2008 by xenolith

[Mantra68]

Did this guy actually say his teacher could beat up my teacher?

 

Jesus Christ, what are we, ten?

 

People are funny.

[xenolith]

Just so I'm clear Chris, who is "this guy" ?

[Mantra68]

Just so I'm clear Chris, who is "this guy" ?

Starhumper7. The nei gung master who has yet to master his own ego.

[Mal]

Actually it's usually spelled Pei Mei, and it means White Eyebrow.

 

Sorry about the spelling. I do Tong Long so know of White Eyebrow. I see you've changed to your Empirical Taoism avitar too.

[xenolith]

I believe this represents the first agreement between yourself and I.

 

I applaud your good judgment in this regard.

Edited January 10, 2008 by xenolith

[Mantra68]

I believe this represents the first agreement between yourself and I.

 

I applaud your good judgment in this regard.

All good.

[Cameron]

Did this guy actually say his teacher could beat up my teacher?

 

Jesus Christ, what are we, ten?

 

People are funny.

 

 

Actually this brings up an interesting issue that I was just talking to a friend about, why there exists so much disrespect in the Tao tradition(atleast here in the States).

 

But I will start another thread about it because I think it is a seperate issue.