The body of humanity

[CloudHands]

Evolution, hurts, troubles, riots, wars reveal something. The question that have us to take different sides is... is it a cough or does it need treatment ?

 

 

As a reflection on action and reaction.

 

What's the initial action, the one, the first one that called for reaction ? The 1->2

Something one wish to stop ?

We, spiritual minorities understand we can grow from returning. But for the majority, for life evolution it gave only one direction, or all the directions if you prefer but only one directive : ahead (survive, adapt, evolve).

So, for all, as the engine is on you can't realize peace by doing nothing... It will require everyone to be satisfied with its situation. It has no chance to happen.

 

So 3 possibilities :

1. it's normal to be ill and you can live ill : so it's not illness it's a condition of living.

2. illness is going to kill you if you don't treat.

3. to treat non-illness will kill you.

 

I'd like to hear your insights on this

[Marblehead]

I do what I can to reduce pressures in my life.  There are some things I have no control over so even though they upset me now and again I acknowledge that I can do nothing about them and then let my mind wander to other thoughts.

 

Well, all three of your choices are valid.

 

Sometimes, but not always, #1 is valid,

Sometimes #2 is valid but not all illnesses are life-threatening,

If it ain't broke don't be trying to fix it.

 

[CloudHands]

11 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I do what I can to reduce pressures in my life.  There are some things I have no control over so even though they upset me now and again I acknowledge that I can do nothing about them and then let my mind wander to other thoughts.

 

Well, all three of your choices are valid.

 

Sometimes, but not always, #1 is valid,

Sometimes #2 is valid but not all illnesses are life-threatening,

If it ain't broke don't be trying to fix it.

 

 

So if I understand you well, your participation to the humanity's health would be trying to not poison it with adding your personal troubles/regulate it like a buffer. Is that correct ?

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, CloudHands said:

 

So if I understand you well, your participation to the humanity's health would be trying to not poison it with adding your personal troubles/regulate it like a buffer. Is that correct ?

Yeah, I think you have it pretty much on mark.

 

I stopped trying to control others' life a long time ago.  I have enough work with my own.

 

And as an Anarchist I would be a hypocrite if I tried.

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

2 hours ago, CloudHands said:

1. it's normal to be ill and you can live ill : so it's not illness it's a condition of living.

 

many people are ill, so you could say that it is 'normal'

 

2 hours ago, CloudHands said:

2. illness is going to kill you if you don't treat.

 

I am ill, and without treating it I will not get my health beack, but I won't treat it with modern medicine.

 

2 hours ago, CloudHands said:

3. to treat non-illness will kill you.

 

when nonillness is treated with modern medicine, that's bad, will unbalance you 

 

also, when you think you're ill while you're not ill, thats probably gonna make you ill.

 

we all die at the end of our livespan, whether ill or not. But it's much nicer to have a body functioning as it should/ is meant to be

[CloudHands]

The metaphor of humanity as a body as its limits I aware of that but some may have thoughts related to the ideas behind the images. Maybe that's even a wrong question. But I know nobody that's purely neutral. Everyone has its own inflections and is pushing its own direction and some engage more than others. Even make efforts to be still is a response to a situation. Its a bit like hinayana/mahayana paradigms in Buddhism.

 

The questions I'm pondering about is :

1. Is humanity sick ? not at the individual level but as a functioning body.

2. If it is, and one as a opinion about the disease(s) should one try to cure it. Whatever is level of implication.

 

I have my own answers about it...

 

I think humanity is sick because it's suffering, but I'm not sure if suffering is a disease or a factor of motivation proper to our specie. Like no other specie has been through such an evolution, treasures of ingenuity to deal with the environment. Now that surviving to the environment seems to be much less a difficulty we have to survive to ourselves as our technology is a threat to our environment and the lifestyle we developed mostly (I think) does not lead much to inner-peace or self-fulfillment blooming.

On a personal practical level I know what I'm after, my own blooming which can be contagious as a smile or powerful as an example. Now as a democratic citizen it could go beyond that as elected governments make choices that many try to inflect. I have done that in the past, as a free teacher or as a provider of information/questions, I do that no more mostly because I have not many certitudes, but I don't look for it really, I could.

 

...but I'd like to enrich my thinking with yours.

Edited August 20, 2017 by CloudHands

[doc benway]

I don't think I could vote - these 3 options are not necessary.

Illness is absolutely a part and condition of living and yet it is still illness.

We can treat illness to the degree we feel is appropriate and then accept that there may still be undesired consequences and find a way to be OK with the new me, whatever that looks like./

To me the second part is more related to healing.

In healing, there is acceptance of change.

Not necessarily a refusal of treatment, however. 

We can have the same discussion about death.

[9th]

Quote

 

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

 

- Jiddu Krishnamurti

 

 

 

Quote

"Only thought as theoretical and as far removed from fact as modem European thought could have conceived the evolution of man to be possible apart from surrounding nature, or have regarded the evolution of man as a gradual conquest of nature. This is quite impossible. In living, in dying, in evolving, in degenerating, man equally serves the purposes of nature - or, rather, nature makes equal use, though perhaps for different purposes, of the products of both evolution and degeneration.

 

And, at the same time, humanity as a whole can never escape from nature, for, even in struggling against nature man acts in conformity with her purposes. The evolution of large masses of humanity is opposed to nature's purposes. The evolution of a certain small percentage may be in accord with nature's purposes.

 

Man contains within him the possibility of evolution. But the evolution of humanity as a whole, that is, the development of these possibilities in all men, or in most of them, or even in a large number of them, is not necessary for the purposes of the earth or of the planetary world in general, and it might, in fact, be injurious or fatal. There exist, therefore, special forces (of a planetary character) which oppose the evolution of large masses of humanity and keep it at the level it ought, to be."

 

- George Ivanovich Gurdjieff

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

There are many disciplines that talk in terms of stages and landmarks of spirituality. You take a certain vow, you take on a discipline, and from that point onward you are a different person.

 

It’s deceptive if we see the process as a sudden one: once you get your title and the deed that goes with your title, you think you have become a slightly advanced and different person. From the point of view of true spirituality, we have to face this misunderstanding. There is nothing that should be regarded as a sudden jump at all. Rather, there is a gradual process, an actual process that takes place constantly.

 

We should also understand that the spiritual journey we are discussing—the so-called journey and so-called spirituality—has nothing to do with the “spirit.” Here, “spiritual” refers to the self-existing healthiness that every one of us possesses. We are not talking about the mythical concept of God or some divine power that we cannot understand but we feel we have to accept. We are talking about something very literal and real.

 

Nowness is sometimes referred to as the fourth moment. That may sound more mystical than what is meant. You have the past, present, and future, which are the three moments. Then you have something else taking place, which is called the fourth moment. The fourth moment is not a far-out or extraordinary experience as such. It is a state of experience that doesn’t even belong to now. It doesn’t belong to what might be, either. It belongs to a non-category—which provides another sense of category. Thus it is called the fourth moment. That is the state of vipashyana, or the state of non-ego. The Tibetan term for this is lhakthong dagme tokpe sherap, which means “the knowledge of egoless insight.” It is a very real experience in which nothing can be misunderstood. It is such an overwhelming experience. The experience comes at you. You experience it precisely and in great detail.

 

There is a constant state of turmoil. Problematic situations happen constantly. If you look closely at where the problem came from and what it is all about, you begin to experience the fourth moment. Problems come and problems go but still remain problematic. That is the state of the fourth moment. A problem remains a problem. Nothing dissolves into a love-and-lighty beautiful creamy honey lotus lake. It remains still potent, slightly painful, sour—as if the world, the universe, is staring at you. The world is looking at you with a disapproving look. 

 

That state of insight and state of being simultaneously haunted is the experience of the fourth moment.  The hauntedness and the sense of insight work together. That is what creates experience.  Experience cannot happen unless there is both black and white, sweet and sour working together. Otherwise, you are just absorbed into the sweet, or you are absorbed into the sour, and there is no experience. You have no way of working with yourself at all.

 

The present is the third moment. It has a sense of presence. You might say, “I can feel your presence.” Or, “I can feel the presence of the light when it’s turned on. Now there is no darkness.” The present provides a sense of security: you know where you are. You keep your flashlight in your pocket. If you encounter darkness, you take out your flashlight and shine the light to show you where you are going. You feel enormous relief, created by that little spot of light in front of you. You don’t see the whole environment, but you feel the sense of presence and the present. The fourth moment is a state of totality. Basic awareness is taking place which doesn’t need any particular reassurance as such. It is happening. It is there. You feel the totality. You perceive not only the beam of light from the flashlight, but you see the space around you at the same time. The fourth moment is a much larger version of the third moment.

 

-  Chogyam Trungpa

 

 

Edited August 21, 2017 by 9th

[silent thunder]

the way a question is framed, often seems to dictate the sphere and potential of the answers found...

 

as such... I find no purchase in my experience to the question, nor any of it's possible answers.

 

but I found it interesting to ponder nontheless.

 

thanks

[CloudHands]

Just now, 9th said:

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

 

- Jiddu Krishnamurti

 

 

That quote popped up in my mind this morning. Cheers.

The others quotes very also very related to the subject I'm pondering, things I got to reread later... Thanks  

[CloudHands]

6 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

the way a question is framed, often seems to dictate the sphere and potential of the answers found...

 

as such... I find no purchase in my experience to the question, nor any of it's possible answers.

 

but I found it interesting to ponder nontheless.

 

thanks

 

I was re-reading the OP, it's actually very badly framed probably because my ideas were not so clear. But I did not find better words to keep my ideas abstracts. You're allowed to bend the frame if needed, as I wasn't so sure, it's poplar made.

 

poplar (n.) 

mid-14c., from Anglo-French popler, from Old French poplier (13c., Modern French peuplier) -> "peut plier" means "can be bent"

Edited August 21, 2017 by CloudHands

[CloudHands]

Ok I'll try to put it out of the malformed initial abstract idea.

So I'll give you an exemple... that will please anarchists

 

The Monitorial System. It's a school system that has been used in France since 1747 for almost a century with great results.

Avantages :

• 1 teacher for up to 800 students
• develop autonomy, responsibility
• students learn to work together, advanced help beginners (and it changes each lesson)
• students learn significantly faster

 It stopped in 1833 on order of the minister François Guizot, for several reasons :

• Children learnt the program too fast, so they finished their grade too early and ended up idling in the streets.
• The school teacher were priests. The importance of their role was dramatically decreased since Children managed by themselves. And so...
• It was formation of independent spirits vs education of children (transmit the rules of the society).

 

So when I read so often spiritual persons, bums, going the way of "that's the law" or "life is fair, don't do anything" it makes me skeptical... I believe we human can do better but it won't happen with these "life is perfect". It is in a sense I understand too, on the purely mystical level it is. But it does not mean that at the concrete/practical level things are set up well enough.

 

Beware to the Confucian reading of the Lao Tsu. 

 

There are plenty exemples of fights for more justice that were illegals nobody would decently question their legitimacy today...

 

So I'm still swinging between these 2 poles the meditative CH, like that sets me in a state of peace and contentment and the more rational or concrete CH that thinks that the human worlds is so in-achieved and unfair.

 

Writings these words, I know I have my answers in me. Yes of course to treat but with Tai Chi and Qi Gong, get some level then help spread it. But never get satisfied in front of injustice and horror.

[9th]

[CloudHands]

You did that sculpture ? That's a nice peace

I'm no specialist of antique Egypt, would you comment for us ?

[9th]

Why would you assume I did that?  Do you only post pictures of things you have personally created?  Or do you not post pictures at all?  Or are you are being sarcastic in some strange way?  So many questions...

 

The carving depicts Horus and Set.  Take a look at the central column and see if it makes sense to you.  Beyond this, I have no further comment.

[CloudHands]

Innocent light humour.

 

I get it.

[Brian]

On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 6:37 AM, CloudHands said:

Evolution, hurts, troubles, riots, wars reveal something. The question that have us to take different sides is... is it a cough or does it need treatment ?

 

 

As a reflection on action and reaction.

 

What's the initial action, the one, the first one that called for reaction ? The 1->2

Something one wish to stop ?

We, spiritual minorities understand we can grow from returning. But for the majority, for life evolution it gave only one direction, or all the directions if you prefer but only one directive : ahead (survive, adapt, evolve).

So, for all, as the engine is on you can't realize peace by doing nothing... It will require everyone to be satisfied with its situation. It has no chance to happen.

 

So 3 possibilities :

1. it's normal to be ill and you can live ill : so it's not illness it's a condition of living.

2. illness is going to kill you if you don't treat.

3. to treat non-illness will kill you.

 

I'd like to hear your insights on this

I picked option 1 because it seemed the closest.

 

Not everything which seems like an illness is, and not every illness needs to be treated, and not every treatment cures the illness, and not everyone wants to be cured.

 

I try to listen and use my best judgement, I try to do no harm even though that sometimes appears to be not trying to help, and I try to remember that I don't have the wisdom to know all the right changes to be made -- and I don't really have the authority to inject my own choices and energy into everyone's and everything's concerns.

 

I am reminded of Chapter 29 of the Dao De Jing:

Flowing Hands transmission said:

Do you think you can take over the Universe and then improve it?

It can never be done.

 

The Universe is sacred, it can never be improved.

If you try to change it, you will ruin it.

If you try to possess it, you will only lose it.

 

In the Ten Thousand Things, as well as Man,

one never feels quite the same every day.

So, sometimes things are ahead and sometimes behind.

Sometimes breathing become difficult, sometimes it is easy.

Sometimes there is strength and sometimes there is weakness.

Sometimes one feels up and cheerful, but sometimes one feels down.

This is natural;

for we are all subject to the Heavenly bodies

that influence our lives.

 

The Sage experiences these as well as ordinary Men,

for he is one of the Ten Thousand Things.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Brian

[9th]

47 minutes ago, CloudHands said:

Innocent light humour.

 

Oh, it was?  I had no idea.  

[CloudHands]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

I picked option 1 because it seemed the closest.

 

Not everything which seems like an illness is, and not every illness needs to be treated, and not every treatment cures the illness, and not everyone wants to be cured.

 

I try to listen and use my best judgement, I try to do no harm even though that sometimes appears to be not trying to help, and I try to remember that I don't have the wisdom to know all the right changes to be made -- and I don't really have the authority to inject my own choices and energy into everyone's and everything's concerns.

 

First I have got to say that when I picked up my steadiest translation of the Lao Tzu, the page I had immediately under my eyes was chapter XXIX.

 

Second, of course I understand what you say, of course I feel (very?) close to it and also of course it's not about neither owning the world or trying to make it perfect and maybe not even better. Nobody is able to know the effect of what he does on the long run. Of course it's not about one person being the truth for everyone. Of course there is and will be ups and downs and maybe eventually I'll join MH and you and others in that happy fatalist vision (that I humbly respect) but (and it's a matter of pride) not before 40 !

 

Yet, as human, we have been a long run. We know that we used to live without possessing anything then not much (few tools, fire, some instruments) but it made life became much easier. Then we developed agriculture and we started to have stocks and count on it, some had much of it some had less.

Then, gaining power over others, some had been in such favorable positions they had to justify such a difference. They invented God (or it could be Dao, if you want) to justify their wealth and power or territory (and there are still countries claiming that a piece of earth is god gave to them).

Now we know that regicide casts no spell on its people.

 

The people that wrote the DDJ still believed that the Emperor was ruling by the force of heaven and earth, it looked steady but it have been proved wrong. I mean the principle, the major idea related to cosmology, philosophy, neidan in the DDJ... are pure gift to me. Now when it comes to politic, clearly that outdated.

These guys had now ideas that in the future most of the more powerful countries would be democratic (or relatively close to it, you US proved it bringing Trump to the presidency !).

What about making a population ignorant when it's supposed to choose its rulers ? To keep a country stable when a King inherit a kingdom... why not, it's wisely thought when you go wars afters wars (warring states era). I believe people can learn and improve thus I'm often contradict. And if there is something called free will it's probably something related to the spirit ability to think outside of the highways and have the courage/confidence to assume it.

 

The idea behind all that is that humanity is going where we human choose to go. And the humanity's body it's certainly not 0K. Out of rage and lack of knowledge we can go fascist or worst or maybe move toward a more enlightened civilization like it has been, century after century, I dare to believe it, on the way.

Actually it's about what is Wu Wei we talking about, I think the idea is never force anything but it does not mean you have to shut up and accept things you despise, everything is moving and we are both objects and forces.

 

I think my words are not too far from my thoughts... please don't ban me for blaspheme !

[Brian]

You imagine persecution just as you imagine fatalism.  You are still young, though, so perhaps you will outgrow this phase.

 

[Taomeow]

5 hours ago, 9th said:

The carving depicts Horus and Set.  Take a look at the central column and see if it makes sense to you. 

 

It does to me.  Bastards.

 

 

 

 

[CloudHands]

1 minute ago, Brian said:

You imagine persecution just as you imagine fatalism.  You are still young, though, so perhaps you will outgrow this phase.

 

 

I cheerfully to offer you to re-read the previous post dear Brian. It's more related to abuse of weakness of situation and globally human emancipation, education, environmental toxicity physical and spiritual.

But not persecution... at least in countries like yours or mine.

[CloudHands]

It's ok to derail on illuminaties sucking out human's juice. I'm not very aware of it...

[CloudHands]

...and it's not my thread btw

[9th]