Can the Dalai Lama Prevent Self-Immolation?

[TashiDolma]

The first topic that I would like to discuss is quite controversial - self-immolation. As someone who grew up in a Buddhist family, I have been taught that committing suicide for whatever reason is wrong. I think self-immolation fit the definition of suicide. I always wonder why the Dalai Lama has never spoken to discourage more people from burning themselves? In the video below, he said that he is not fit to speak about the issue because he is no longer a secular leader. However, I think as a spiritual leader, he can speak about the issue from the Buddhist perspective:

https://youtu.be/gXCjy3YV7Ks


Even an ordinary Tibetan Lhasang Tsering is hoping the Dalai Lama is speaking about the issue. Do let me know what does everyone think about the issue?

https://youtu.be/AkciWqBBg9M

Tashi Dolma

 

 

[Stosh]

I imagine the more attention you bring to the subject the more you would be... unintentionally advocating it, or at least emphasizing the the impression of impact, burning ones-self to death, might have. Whereas , telling folks , who must be rather,, motivated,  about it ,that you aren't in favor of it, probably wouldn't be of much impact.

Sometimes the best thing is not to add fuel to the fire,, so to speak. 

[9th]

 

[roger]

Hi TashiDolma.

 

It's possible that he doesn't want to talk about it for personal reasons, other than not being a secular leader. Maybe he has strong feelings about it or doesn't want to offend anyone. There's no telling what his real, unconscious reasons are. He may for some reason feel threatened by the idea of speaking about it. He's human, and we all have our areas of discomfort.

 

I attempted suicide many years ago, and I feel that it was wrong, and very selfish, because of the effect it would have had on my family.

Edited August 23, 2017 by roger

[blue eyed snake]

a very sensitive topic indeed.

I shudder to think about it.

 

but I wonder whether the term suicide applies here. Suicide in general is committed by people with long-term deep depression. Those who do not know how that feels should not judge them. And those that do know how it feels, they tend not to judge. Furthermore when people do commit suicide they choose the most painless and fast method available to them. Because they cannot endure the suffering anymore. They will not knowingly and willingly add more suffering to their burden.

 

These selfburnings do seem to be something different, dying by being burned is universally the most feared way of dying. Even though I do not know nearly enough about to speak out of it. I gather it is a sort of self-sacrifice, meant as protest against the circumstances that Tibet is in.

 

I'm not a buddhist, but suicide is thought bad of in most cultures. But I have no idea what is thought of killing ones-self as sacrifice in Buddhism.

 

 

Why the Dalai Lama does not speak out against it I have no idea, I mean, i can think of several. But that is his responsibility, he must act according to what he is and he seems to have chosen not to speak out against it. Seems to me we can only respect that.

 

But still, it makes me shudder to think of it

 

BES

[Miroku]

In an interview with John Oliver Dalailama speaks about self-immolation and says he doesn't like it, however he won't speak out against it, because he doesn't want to hurt families of those people even more. If he said it is wrong then those families could be really sad and hurt so he is not speaking on the issue.

[cold]

6 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

a very sensitive topic indeed.

I shudder to think about it.

 

but I wonder whether the term suicide applies here. Suicide in general is committed by people with long-term deep depression. Those who do not know how that feels should not judge them. And those that do know how it feels, they tend not to judge. Furthermore when people do commit suicide they choose the most painless and fast method available to them. Because they cannot endure the suffering anymore. They will not knowingly and willingly add more suffering to their burden.

 

These selfburnings do seem to be something different, dying by being burned is universally the most feared way of dying. Even though I do not know nearly enough about to speak out of it. I gather it is a sort of self-sacrifice, meant as protest against the circumstances that Tibet is in.

 

I'm not a buddhist, but suicide is thought bad of in most cultures. But I have no idea what is thought of killing ones-self as sacrifice in Buddhism.

 

 

Why the Dalai Lama does not speak out against it I have no idea, I mean, i can think of several. But that is his responsibility, he must act according to what he is and he seems to have chosen not to speak out against it. Seems to me we can only respect that.

 

But still, it makes me shudder to think of it

 

BES

 

Many years ago my peace was shattered by the most terrible sound... my neighbor was screaming in extreme pain "Help me, Help me"

 

I shouted out to others to call 911 and ran a few hundred yards to the screams. To see my neighbor unclothed, hairless more or less, and hurting it was too late for drop and roll his clothes were burnt off... skin blistering... I shouted to him follow me ... trying to lead him up the drive way to the road where the emergency crews would be. The route we took would have broken a snakes back.

 

I never fail to fall into tears when I hear the sirens of an ambulance and begin muttering "Mother Mary pray for us now and at the time of our death"... The ambulance crew bundled him in blankets carefully and quickly. For which I couldn't be more grateful!

Afterwards I just kept running and praying...

 

I know he suffered terribly that day and for many months afterwards... I do too, not in the extreme he did, but I suffer every time I see a picture of a person burning or burnt, or remember that day...

[roger]

1 hour ago, cold said:

 

Many years ago my peace was shattered by the most terrible sound... my neighbor was screaming in extreme pain "Help me, Help me"

 

I shouted out to others to call 911 and ran a few hundred yards to the screams. To see my neighbor unclothed, hairless more or less, and hurting it was too late for drop and roll his clothes were burnt off... skin blistering... I shouted to him follow me ... trying to lead him up the drive way to the road where the emergency crews would be. The route we took would have broken a snakes back.

 

I never fail to fall into tears when I hear the sirens of an ambulance and begin muttering "Mother Mary pray for us now and at the time of our death"... The ambulance crew bundled him in blankets carefully and quickly. For which I couldn't be more grateful!

Afterwards I just kept running and praying...

 

I know he suffered terribly that day and for many months afterwards... I do too, not in the extreme he did, but I suffer every time I see a picture of a person burning or burnt, or remember that day...

 

That's a touching and terrifying story.

 

I'm glad your friend is okay.

[9th]

On 8/22/2017 at 2:56 PM, TashiDolma said:

The first topic that I would like to discuss is quite controversial - self-immolation. As someone who grew up in a Buddhist family, I have been taught that committing suicide for whatever reason is wrong. I think self-immolation fit the definition of suicide.

 

Have you also been taught that people should not be able to make their own choices in life?  

 

Also - Isnt killing anything at all considered "wrong" in Buddhism?  Have you begun a campaign to prevent those actions by all military forces across the globe as well?  How about the meat-based food industry?  Have you started any campaigns against their rampant mass murder that continues unabated every day?

 

 

[TashiDolma]

On 23/08/2017 at 4:18 AM, Stosh said:

I imagine the more attention you bring to the subject the more you would be... unintentionally advocating it, or at least emphasizing the the impression of impact, burning ones-self to death, might have. Whereas , telling folks , who must be rather,, motivated,  about it ,that you aren't in favor of it, probably wouldn't be of much impact.

Sometimes the best thing is not to add fuel to the fire,, so to speak. 

Dear Stosh

Thank you for your comments. I do understand what do you mean that by bringing up the subject, it may give people the idea of doing so. Please correct me if I am wrong. However, before I brought up the subject, hundreds of people have died through the painful method of self-immolation. I think after so many casualties, we do have to say something at least to come up with an idea on how to prevent more victims. My idea right now is for the Dalai Lama to say something since he is the most famous face in Tibetan Buddhism. What do you think?

[TashiDolma]

On 23/08/2017 at 5:19 AM, 9th said:

 

Thank you for the music 9th

[TashiDolma]

On 23/08/2017 at 6:00 PM, roger said:

Hi TashiDolma.

 

It's possible that he doesn't want to talk about it for personal reasons, other than not being a secular leader. Maybe he has strong feelings about it or doesn't want to offend anyone. There's no telling what his real, unconscious reasons are. He may for some reason feel threatened by the idea of speaking about it. He's human, and we all have our areas of discomfort.

 

I attempted suicide many years ago, and I feel that it was wrong, and very selfish, because of the effect it would have had on my family.

Dear Roger

 

Dear Roger

Thank you for sharing your experience. I am so glad that you cancel your suicide intention and now are still here to share your experience with us. 

I do think that as a spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama has a responsibility to say something about self-immolation because he can put his charisma and power to prevent further loss of life. The family of those victims must have been heartbroken. I really hope the Dalai Lama will say something to discourage self-immolation. 

[TashiDolma]

On 23/08/2017 at 7:35 PM, blue eyed snake said:

a very sensitive topic indeed.

I shudder to think about it.

 

but I wonder whether the term suicide applies here. Suicide in general is committed by people with long-term deep depression. Those who do not know how that feels should not judge them. And those that do know how it feels, they tend not to judge. Furthermore when people do commit suicide they choose the most painless and fast method available to them. Because they cannot endure the suffering anymore. They will not knowingly and willingly add more suffering to their burden.

 

These selfburnings do seem to be something different, dying by being burned is universally the most feared way of dying. Even though I do not know nearly enough about to speak out of it. I gather it is a sort of self-sacrifice, meant as protest against the circumstances that Tibet is in.

 

I'm not a buddhist, but suicide is thought bad of in most cultures. But I have no idea what is thought of killing ones-self as sacrifice in Buddhism.

 

 

Why the Dalai Lama does not speak out against it I have no idea, I mean, i can think of several. But that is his responsibility, he must act according to what he is and he seems to have chosen not to speak out against it. Seems to me we can only respect that.

 

But still, it makes me shudder to think of it

 

BES

Dear Blue eyed snake

Thank you for responding to my post and sharing your thoughts. I have been a Buddhist for the good part of my life, and I know for sure that there are no such things as offering the sacrifice of human or animal lives in Buddhism. In fact, we believe that it is incorrect to kill (oneself or other beings). That is the very reason I would like to speak about it. 

Thank you blue eyed snake - I do agree with you very much that the Dalai Lama should speak about self-immolation. Would you mind to create awareness about this matter? I think if more people  speak up, there will be a greater chance for the Dalai Lama to say something. 

[TashiDolma]

On 24/08/2017 at 1:09 AM, Miroku said:

In an interview with John Oliver Dalailama speaks about self-immolation and says he doesn't like it, however he won't speak out against it, because he doesn't want to hurt families of those people even more. If he said it is wrong then those families could be really sad and hurt so he is not speaking on the issue.

 

Dear Miroku

Thank you for your response. I find the Dalai Lama's response does not make sense. The family members of the victims have been hurt all the while and maybe still hurthing. Now we have approximately 160 people who have died from self immolation. If this method of self-sacrifice is not stopped soon, there will be many more victims and their loved ones will be hurt. What do you think?

[TashiDolma]

On 24/08/2017 at 1:44 AM, cold said:

 

Many years ago my peace was shattered by the most terrible sound... my neighbor was screaming in extreme pain "Help me, Help me"

 

I shouted out to others to call 911 and ran a few hundred yards to the screams. To see my neighbor unclothed, hairless more or less, and hurting it was too late for drop and roll his clothes were burnt off... skin blistering... I shouted to him follow me ... trying to lead him up the drive way to the road where the emergency crews would be. The route we took would have broken a snakes back.

 

I never fail to fall into tears when I hear the sirens of an ambulance and begin muttering "Mother Mary pray for us now and at the time of our death"... The ambulance crew bundled him in blankets carefully and quickly. For which I couldn't be more grateful!

Afterwards I just kept running and praying...

 

I know he suffered terribly that day and for many months afterwards... I do too, not in the extreme he did, but I suffer every time I see a picture of a person burning or burnt, or remember that day...

 

Dear Cold

 

Thank you for your comment and sharing your experience. How is your neighbour now? I hope he is in better state now.

 

 

[TashiDolma]

7 hours ago, 9th said:

 

Have you also been taught that people should not be able to make their own choices in life?  

 

Also - Isnt killing anything at all considered "wrong" in Buddhism?  Have you begun a campaign to prevent those actions by all military forces across the globe as well?  How about the meat-based food industry?  Have you started any campaigns against their rampant mass murder that continues unabated every day?

 

 

Dear 9th

Yes killing is wrong in Buddhism. Any form of killing whether it is killing oneself or other sentient beings. I have not started any sort of campaign at the moment. I do think that if the Dalai Lama speaks about it, there will be more impact since he is the most famous face among Tibetans now. Do you have any other ideas of how to prevent further self-immolation?

[9th]

4 hours ago, TashiDolma said:

Dear 9th

Yes killing is wrong in Buddhism. Any form of killing whether it is killing oneself or other sentient beings. I have not started any sort of campaign at the moment. I do think that if the Dalai Lama speaks about it, there will be more impact since he is the most famous face among Tibetans now. Do you have any other ideas of how to prevent further self-immolation?

 

 

What other forms of suicide have you been trying to prevent?  Can you tell us why you concentrate this effort exclusively on Tibetan protesters?  Suicide is a global phenomena among all peoples of all classes, and it occurs on a massive scale every day.  What other actions have you taken to help prevent these secular forms of suicide?

 

I want to know exactly why you feel a need to prevent these protesters from committing acts of self-immolation.  Being "against suicide" is not a worthy explanation.  Its a non-justification for your personal agenda on this topic.  Why dont you dig a little deeper and give us a glimpse into the real truth that is motivating you.

[roger]

6 hours ago, TashiDolma said:

Dear Roger

 

Dear Roger

Thank you for sharing your experience. I am so glad that you cancel your suicide intention and now are still here to share your experience with us. 

I do think that as a spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama has a responsibility to say something about self-immolation because he can put his charisma and power to prevent further loss of life. The family of those victims must have been heartbroken. I really hope the Dalai Lama will say something to discourage self-immolation. 

 

Another possibility is that he just doesn't know what to say or how to say it. He may feel ambiguously about the matter, or may not know how he feels.

 

Two examples from my own life, from when I was a teenager, illustrate this point.

 

I had this friend who I was very close to, who had severe depression. He would talk about it frequently, and I just didn't know what to say or how to help him, so I just kept quiet.

 

Another time I was on a date, and I just didn't know what to say. I had had girlfriends before, and always seemed to come up with things to say, but this particular time, for some reason, I was at a loss for words. It was pretty awkward and she pointed out my failure to speak. She was a few years older than me.

 

I think it really turned her off, because at the end of the date I tried to kiss her and she was like, 'Uh, no. I don't think so.' Lol

[blue eyed snake]

seems you misunderstood me

 

 

7 hours ago, TashiDolma said:

Dear Blue eyed snake

Thank you for responding to my post and sharing your thoughts. I have been a Buddhist for the good part of my life, and I know for sure that there are no such things as offering the sacrifice of human or animal lives in Buddhism. In fact, we believe that it is incorrect to kill (oneself or other beings). That is the very reason I would like to speak about it. 

Thank you blue eyed snake - I do agree with you very much that the Dalai Lama should speak about self-immolation. Would you mind to create awareness about this matter? I think if more people  speak up, there will be a greater chance for the Dalai Lama to say something. 

 

I said, among other things

 

<<<Why the Dalai Lama does not speak out against it I have no idea, I mean, i can think of several. But that is his responsibility, he must act according to what he is and he seems to have chosen not to speak out against it. Seems to me we can only respect that.>>>

 

which is contrary of what you make of it, so please read  my post again and try to find out why you did read what I did not write, think about that.

 

Besides, even though I sometimes try to change peoples mind ( in general a hopeless quest) I would not presume to think that I'm worthy to think that my reasoning could be " better"  then that of the Dalai Lama.   Everybody carries his/her own responsibility for her/his actions and I trust the Dalai Lama in his choice, there could be many reasons for his not speaking up about it. All valid.

 

further, it seems that Miroku has heard an interview where the Dalai Lama gives a reason for his silence on the topic of self-immolation.

 

On 8/23/2017 at 7:09 PM, Miroku said:

In an interview with John Oliver Dalailama speaks about self-immolation and says he doesn't like it, however he won't speak out against it, because he doesn't want to hurt families of those people even more. If he said it is wrong then those families could be really sad and hurt so he is not speaking on the issue.

 

[blue eyed snake]

 

 

8 hours ago, TashiDolma said:

 

Dear Miroku

Thank you for your response. I find the Dalai Lama's response does not make sense. The family members of the victims have been hurt all the while and maybe still hurthing. Now we have approximately 160 people who have died from self immolation. If this method of self-sacrifice is not stopped soon, there will be many more victims and their loved ones will be hurt. What do you think?

 

I think Miroku's reply is very much to the point,  when you lose a loved one due to self-immolation, your only solace maybe the idea that your sister/brother/father/mother/friend/loved one died in an honorable way ( as Apeiron and Peiron pointed out, a worthwhile read that was, thanks  A and P . I thought there was something like that.

http://tibet.net/2013/06/is-self-immolation-anti-buddhism/

 

if the Dalai Lama, being the highest source of wisdom and authority for them, would speak out against it. They would not have that solace anymore, an honorable deed would thereby change to a horrible misdeed. Thereby making the suffering for those people unbearable.

 

I've always understood these deaths as how they are explained in the link given. As honorable ( but very sad)

 

Just as the fireman, dying while saving other people, the parents, dying to save their kids. We would nott call that suicide, because it isn't. It's give once life because one feels that there is a higher cause that is worthy of it.

 

and as a last thought, In general decisions are made in a balance. There are things that influence one to say yes, and other things that influence one to say no. Whether that is about easy things  as what to eat for dinner or complicated things like this. I suppose the Dalai lama has found a balance in between a whole hoard of influences.

[Miroku]

9 hours ago, TashiDolma said:

 

Dear Miroku

Thank you for your response. I find the Dalai Lama's response does not make sense. The family members of the victims have been hurt all the while and maybe still hurthing. Now we have approximately 160 people who have died from self immolation. If this method of self-sacrifice is not stopped soon, there will be many more victims and their loved ones will be hurt. What do you think?

Well, those are desperate people in desperate conditions. I think they should know better. Especially monks who do that. It is an incredibly stupid thing to do, however to me Dalailama's stance on this makes sense. Telling them what they do is wrong could take the last pieces of their hope and left them feeling helpless. Yes there are better ways to fight against chinese, however this is what they chose to do. And how Blue Eyed Snake said, feeling like their loved ones did something heroic can ease the pain of the people who suffered the loss.

[Bud Jetsun]

Cow drinks from a stream and makes milk.  Snake drinks from the same stream and makes venom.  The stream and the fire are perfectly doing what they do, so is snake and the snake bite receiver.  

 

A man is free to burn to ashes without fear enjoying the last of that bodies enriching sensations as a celebration of liberation, or as a sacrifice in compassion for life to raise awareness of a cause. 

 

*edited due to unneeded cruel over-precision*

 

Far better more enriching to die awakened and fearless in flames than living afraid in the most comfortable situation. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud 

 

Flame drives change with potency.  The caterpillar makes a cocoon and dissolves its own body in digestive acids into an acrid paste, from which a butterfly emerges.  A birth is the other side of death, and some opportunity for enriching life experiences may come between.  The fire is some energy exchange processes between the atmosphere and the fuel, use the same care one extends fire with all ones uses of energy. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Bud Jetsun
Evolving compassion