.

[MegaMind]

36 minutes ago, freeform said:

I’m aware of the long history of arguments on the Mo Pai subject - however I avoided reading into it, and have no interest in doing that now. 
 

However I think that maybe it’s worth sharing my experiences in these arts - might shed some light to both sides of the argument.

 

The truth is that at the higher levels in these arts - ‘objective’ proofs and validation of one’s skill are both tested and demonstrated. This is normally done very much away from the public eye... 

 

If you’ve proven yourself with a school’s ‘outer door’ practice or have shown some level of achievement you might be invited to be initiated into the tradition. There’s often all kinds of ceremonies, empowerments etc that go along with that.
 

Then you’re shown verification of the results of the inner door practice. Sometimes it’s some physiological change in the body... sometimes it’s more ‘paranormal’... usually it’s a combination of all of these at various stages of development.
 

The fact is that ‘reality’ - including physical reality is all an aspect of Mind... and as you go deeper into the inner transformation of Mind, some weird and unusual changes take place - either as ‘abilities’ or side effects. Some abilities you have to work to achieve - some just happen as a byproduct of training.

 

Generally you will be given a method and told to go away to practice it. Then after a period of time you’re tested - and the test isn’t “did you feel Qi moving through your spine”... the test would be a specific physical change in the structure of your spine and the tissues around it. Self evaluation is fraught with delusion - that’s why each lineage will have specific changes that they’re looking for at each stage of practice... at the much later stages these ‘changes’ become pretty supernatural.

 

But

 

1. If you go to a teacher and demand to see evidence of their skill, you’ll be sorely disappointed. The onus is on you to show that you’re a good student. The reality is that for most high level teachers another student is the last thing they want. They have an over abundance of them already. And teaching is a huge burden. If a teacher is very keen to show their supernatural abilities then something is not right. They’re probably a charlatan - with either real abilities but questionable motives or tricks and questionable motives.

2. Proving anything to anyone is the last thing an advanced teacher wishes to do. It is of no interest to them. It’s like being asked to prove that you can count to a million. The only reason the results of practice are shown after you’ve proved yourself and been accepted into the school - is specifically to create trust - that it’s a genuine practice... and later for the teacher testing you it’s to see that the practice has had the required effect. That is all. Being paid to do tricks is a warning sign. Doing these things in public is a warning sign. Talking openly in public about being able to do these things is a warning sign.

 

3. As Thelerner says - the best indication of the validity of a school is that there are many senior students that can do what they claim they can. There are many unscrupulous teachers with real abilities - there are many more unscrupulous teachers with fake abilities.

 

4. You always have a teacher. Your teacher might be a document you downloaded online... it might be a book... it might be a dvd series - or it might be a real teacher. To get anywhere beyond the basics you need to have a real teacher. It’s the way these arts work. There is an exchange that takes place - without it, even if your method is legitimate, it won’t take you beyond the very foundational stages.

 

5. The main thing to look for in a school and a teacher is virtue. Without virtue you might learn skills but it won’t take you far in the spiritual arts. 
 

6. These arts are hard to master. The people that do well in them tend to be the talented ones that do well in anything they put their mind to. It requires hard work, money, time, favourable life circumstances, favourable karmic circumstances - incredible level of dedication - the ability to bounce back from failure. It requires virtue - humility and the letting go of selfish and ‘self-making’ tendencies. It requires great sacrifice. It is almost impossible.

 

7. These arts are not only difficult, but they’re also dangerous. It’s like going from not knowing how to ride a bike to having to ride a unicycle along a razor blade for hundreds of miles without falling off. Cancer is certainly a danger in these arts - Yang Qi can quickly latch onto any small bit of stagnation and turn it into uncontrolled growth.

 

8. Most people that come to such high level teachers thinking that they’re already highly developed and advanced - they simply aren’t. In most cases they’ve not even started to build the foundation. 
 

9. The ‘powers’ are not the point of the practice. The point of being a surgeon is to save people’s lives - not to be skilled in surgery. Getting attached to powers will stop progress.

 

10. Delusion is rife in these arts. This is one reason that objectively verifiable signs of progress are sought.

 

11. Teachers will often teach you outer door methods for years before teaching you anything real. More often than not they won’t even teach you anything real. This is to satisfy your thirst for power in the least harmful way possible. Another factor is... you’d call it racism maybe... but really it’s culturalism. Most teachers don’t thing modern people are up to the level of dedication or sacrifice it takes to succeed.

 

12. If you find it hard to train for 4hrs a day in a fully focused, unwavering way - then the more advanced levels are not for you. You may have all kinds of good reasons - jobs, kids, relationships, low energy, no space to practice, too sensitive, not sensitive enough etc etc - these are all completely understandable, but each one of them would preclude you from being able to reach beyond the beginning to intermediate levels.

 

13. To become healthy physically and psychologically, to transform some of our habits and tendencies to become emotionally resilient, vibrant and energetic, virtuous and at ease - that’s what most of us really want - and that’s not what these higher levels give you! You can get these benefits from authentic methods without having to dedicate your whole life to these arts.

 

A lot of people claiming to want to develop powers and spiritual advancement actually just want to feel happy, confident and at peace.

Ask yourself - what would having abilities like john chang give me that’s even more important than the abilities themselves? There is often a wound we’re looking to heal by feeling special or significant.

 

When you feel like you’re enough, like there’s no inner emptiness or ‘hunger’ for something you can’t put your finger on then usually this craving for the supernatural quickly falls away. What you really need is much more achievable than what you think you want. That’s the good news!

 

The other good news is that achieving this health, comfort, virtue and resilience is actually a prerequisite for doing well at the higher levels!

 

So let’s just aim for becoming better people. Better sons, better friends, better mothers. Put others needs ahead of your own. Create a happy home for you and your family. Find a way of being kind and being strong and being at ease no matter the circumstances. This will have a much greater effect on your spiritual development than some esoteric Dantien compression that you have no business doing at this stage!

 

 

 

"If you go to a teacher and demand to see evidence of their skill, you’ll be sorely disappointed. The onus is on you to show that you’re a good student."

 

The problem here is that out of millions of practices, only a handful lead anywhere. 

 

It is not practical to devote your life to testing every art to find out which is real and which is placebo.

 

This is why we don't bother unless there is at least some objective evidence with scientists and medical doctors present to do their best to rule out fraud.

 

"Proving anything to anyone is the last thing an advanced teacher wishes to do."

 

John Chang and Wim Hof certainly did.

 

"Being paid to do tricks is a warning sign."

 

John never charged any student or patient anything, nor accepted donations.

 

"what would having abilities like john chang give me that’s even more important than the abilities themselves?"

"The ‘powers’ are not the point of the practice."

 

Absolutely I agree with you here.

 

[MegaMind]

4 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

 

Western mopai is a joke. I remember a debate with a "Ilovecoffee"

 

They dont believe in Qi, "we dont see it hence it does not exist", they are not able to see Qi (basic ability of any cultivator).

But, they try to practice neikung to develop Qi power to a level of physical phenomena, like breaking or inflaming physical objects. 

 

That is dangerous and unhealthy for the ones doing it. 

"If you can put on flames an object outside, so you can do to an object inside, those are your internal organs being burned crisp."

 

John has developed his qi to the level where it is visible to the naked eye.

 

It is not our position that qi does not exist.

 

I am not sure where you got that notion from.

 

We also are not focused on catching things on fire or breaking objects.

[ralis]

8 minutes ago, MegaMind said:

 

 

"If you go to a teacher and demand to see evidence of their skill, you’ll be sorely disappointed. The onus is on you to show that you’re a good student."

 

The problem here is that out of millions of practices, only a handful lead anywhere. 

 

It is not practical to devote your life to testing every art to find out which is real and which is placebo.

 

This is why we don't bother unless there is at least some objective evidence with scientists and medical doctors present to do their best to rule out fraud.

 

"Proving anything to anyone is the last thing an advanced teacher wishes to do."

 

John Chang and Wim Hof certainly did.

 

"Being paid to do tricks is a warning sign."

 

John never charged any student or patient anything, nor accepted donations.

 

"what would having abilities like john chang give me that’s even more important than the abilities themselves?"

"The ‘powers’ are not the point of the practice."

 

Absolutely I agree with you here.

 

 

Wim Hof has subjected himself to scientific testing on a number of occasions. Packed in ice for around 1.5 hours while being monitored for physiological changes as well as being injected with an endotoxin in which he didn't show symptoms. The latter test was conducted by medical scientists in a hospital lab.

 

Enough with the false equivalence!

[MegaMind]

4 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Wim Hof has subjected himself to scientific testing on a number of occasions. Packed in ice for around 1.5 hours while being monitored for physiological changes as well as being injected with an endotoxin in which he didn't show symptoms. The latter test was conducted by medical scientists in a hospital lab.

 

Enough with the false equivalence!

 

John was stripped to his undershirt and underwear, his whole body checked with a metal detector for metallic devices, and demonstrated his ability at a random location chosen by the doctors and scientists, on camera.

[ralis]

3 minutes ago, MegaMind said:

 

John was stripped to his undershirt and underwear, his whole body checked with a metal detector for metallic devices, and demonstrated his ability at a random location chosen by the doctors and scientists, on camera.

 

Where are the videos? Wim Hof's are readily available on YouTube for anyone to see.

 

Why the preachy attitude here? Shouldn't you be out in the woods uprooting trees with your mind?

[MegaMind]

13 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Where are the videos? Wim Hof's are readily available on YouTube for anyone to see.

 

Why the preachy attitude here? Shouldn't you be out in the woods uprooting trees with your mind?

 

 

 

The end goal is not abilities.

 

John's ability to move objects does not involve using his mind, it is storing and releasing qi.

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by MegaMind

[ralis]

9 minutes ago, MegaMind said:

 

 

 

The end goal is not abilities.

 

John's ability to move objects does not involve using his mind, it is storing and releasing qi.

 

I saw this video years ago which is an abridged video. 
 

Chang has abilities which directly contradicts your narrative. Are you able to emulate his abilities?
 

Don’t you and your Mo Pai groupies have your own forum?

[RiverSnake]

Always found it kind of funny...instructions in the way are not difficult to find....it is the ferocious intensity needed to walk the path which is most difficult to acquire. 

[MegaMind]

Just now, ralis said:

I saw this video years ago which is an abridged video. 
 

Chang has abilities which directly contradicts your narrative. Are you able to emulate his abilities?
 

Don’t you and your Mo Pai groupies have your own forum?

 

 

You asked to see a video you had already seen?

 

Which abilities does he have which contradict our "narrative", and how do they do so?

 

We don't discuss our own experiences, but encourage others to see for themselves.

 

Yes a private forum.

[kyoji]

Just now, RiverSnake said:

instructions in the way are not difficult to find....it is the ferocious intensity needed to walk the path which is most difficult to acquire. 

 

[freeform]

47 minutes ago, MegaMind said:

The problem here is that out of millions of practices, only a handful lead anywhere. 

 

It is not practical to devote your life to testing every art to find out which is real and which is placebo.

It’s not practical to get into these arts! Nothing about them is practical. They’re not fair. They’re not safe. They’re hard to find. Harder still to discern real practice from the not real. Even harder to practice. They will affect your relationships, take up all your time and money your body will look like a big baby’s body and you probably won’t get anywhere far with them anyway (myself included).

[ralis]

7 minutes ago, MegaMind said:

 

 

You asked to see a video you had already seen?

 

Which abilities does he have which contradict our "narrative", and how do they do so?

 

We don't discuss our own experiences, but encourage others to see for themselves.

 

Yes a private forum.

 

How does one join your esteemed club?

Edited December 15, 2019 by ralis

[MegaMind]

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

It’s not practical to get into these arts! Nothing about them is practical. They’re not fair. They’re not safe. They’re hard to find. Harder still to discern real practice from the not real. Even harder to practice. They will affect your relationships, take up all your time and money your body will look like a big baby’s body and you probably won’t get anywhere far with them anyway (myself included).

 

Well then I guess the only alternative is to give up, or go find some placebo art to keep yourself entertained.

[MegaMind]

2 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

How does one join your forum?

 

Please see the first question on page 1 of the FAQ.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

It also makes me wonder, not talking about MegaMind and his group specifically, but people who are drawn to the Mo Pai practice. It seems almost all of them just want power, but towards what end? 

Yeah I’m always interested in why people get into these arts.

 

Mo Pai specifically - I think the initial draw is to be special. As clearly if you became like john Chang you’d be a very special person - people would look up to you, respect you and treat you as a very special person.

 

Most people who get into these arts are wounded in some way, feel some kind of dissatisfaction with life or the way things are or feel alienated.

It’s often a wound from childhood. And people look to these arts to help fix them in some way. Maybe you were made to feel small and insignificant and now you want ‘show them’ just how big and significant you are...

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with that. If we all had normal happy childhoods we’d probably just be into sports, movies, shopping and drinking.

But often as you progress with these arts, your motivations change. I actually have no idea why I’m doing this anymore. I guess I’m curious. I want to see what’s possible. I’d like to develop virtue.

[MegaMind]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah I’m always interested in why people get into these arts.

 

Mo Pai specifically - I think the initial draw is to be special. As clearly if you became like john Chang you’d be a very special person - people would look up to you, respect you and treat you as a very special person.

 

Most people who get into these arts are wounded in some way, feel some kind of dissatisfaction with life or the way things are or feel alienated.

It’s often a wound from childhood. And people look to these arts to help fix them in some way. Maybe you were made to feel small and insignificant and now you want ‘show them’ just how big and significant you are...

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with that. If we all had normal happy childhoods we’d probably just be into sports, movies, shopping and drinking.

But often as you progress with these arts, your motivations change. I actually have no idea why I’m doing this anymore. I guess I’m curious. I want to see what’s possible. I’d like to develop virtue.

 

 

If you have read the Magus of Java you should already clearly know what the point of the system is.

 

I do agree that most want to become Son Goku and shoot fireballs, but that is not why Mo Pai exists.

 

We do not devote our time to practice to develop abilities.

[ralis]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah I’m always interested in why people get into these arts.

 

Mo Pai specifically - I think the initial draw is to be special. As clearly if you became like john Chang you’d be a very special person - people would look up to you, respect you and treat you as a very special person.

 

Most people who get into these arts are wounded in some way, feel some kind of dissatisfaction with life or the way things are or feel alienated.

It’s often a wound from childhood. And people look to these arts to help fix them in some way. Maybe you were made to feel small and insignificant and now you want ‘show them’ just how big and significant you are...

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with that. If we all had normal happy childhoods we’d probably just be into sports, movies, shopping and drinking.

But often as you progress with these arts, your motivations change. I actually have no idea why I’m doing this anymore. I guess I’m curious. I want to see what’s possible. I’d like to develop virtue.

 

Mo Pai groupies starting a thread here to defend themselves from what they consider misinformation, is indeed suspect! If there system borders on the fantastic, then why worry?

[freeform]

6 minutes ago, MegaMind said:

 

Well then I guess the only alternative is to give up, or go find some placebo art to keep yourself entertained.

No that’s not the only alternative.

 

I spent several years searching for teachers. If you cultivate humility, openness, discernment, sincerity and train hard, you’ll find your teacher.

 

With teachers look for kindness first. Particularly look at how they treat people who’re not high status.

 

To see skill and spiritual advancement - that is harder. I some how developed a sense for it. But I couldn’t tell you how to look for it.

[ralis]

1 minute ago, MegaMind said:

 

 

If you have read the Magus of Java you should already clearly know what the point of the system is.

 

I do agree that most want to become Son Goku and shoot fireballs, but that is not why Mo Pai exists.

 

We do not devote our time to practice to develop abilities.

 

Your incessant use of "we" is nothing more than groupthink.

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, MegaMind said:

why Mo Pai exists.... We

I might regret asking this... when you say ‘we’ - you mean you’ve been officially initiated in the school?

[ralis]

3 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

 

There are no limits, I am already doing stuff nobody ever done before (out of people I have seen), It motivates me to walk further.

 

Application of abilities is crucial and it shows you the depth of your development.

 

 

So you got your LDT full with Qi whats your next step?

What are you gonna do next with overloaded LDT? 

Kill yourself?

 

There was a practitioner of these arts that used too much physical intensity which resulted in a heart valve aneurysm which was surgically replaced. I have his book somewhere.

 

The physical only crowd has yet to realize there are other dimensions that must be integrated with any practice. A fragmented approach will always lead to problems!

[MegaMind]

9 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Mo Pai groupies starting a thread here to defend themselves from what they consider misinformation, is indeed suspect! If there system borders on the fantastic, then why worry?

 

Which thread did we create?

 

 

[MegaMind]

9 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

 

There are no limits, I am already doing stuff nobody ever done before (out of people I have seen), It motivates me to walk further.

 

Application of abilities is crucial and it shows you the depth of your development.

 

 

So you got your LDT full with Qi whats your next step?

What are you gonna do next with overloaded LDT? 

Kill yourself?

 

What stuff are you doing nobody ever did before?

 

[ralis]

6 minutes ago, freeform said:

I might regret asking this... when you say ‘we’ - you mean you’ve been officially initiated in the school?

 

If I remember correctly, all the Mo Pai groupies that post on here, incessantly use "we". Groupthink!

[MegaMind]

8 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Your incessant use of "we" is nothing more than groupthink.

 

If you say so...