.

[MegaMind]

7 minutes ago, Walker said:

 

I see.

 

Allow me to make a modification then. 

 

"Online student of legitimate student" =/= "Face to face student of legitimate student" =/= "Legitimate student" =/= "Formal disciple" =/= "Lineage holder" =/= "Lineage holder empowered by his/her master to teach openly"

 

And,

 

"Online student of legitimate student" < "Face to face student of legitimate student" < "Legitimate student" < "Formal disciple" < "Lineage holder" < "Lineage holder empowered by his/her master to teach openly"

 

Ultimately this doesn't change much.

 

Nobody in the English-speaking, so-called "Mopai" online is a formal disciple or above.

 

Thank you for publicly clarifying the issue. 

 

We merely preserve what John taught Jim and Kosta.

 

Both of them were formal students.

 

Jim did record this instruction on video and we preserve it without alteration.

 

If you were Chinese and in the Indonesian school the information would be the same.

Edited January 14, 2020 by MegaMind

[Walker]

18 minutes ago, MegaMind said:

We merely preserve what John taught Jim and Kosta.

 

Both of them were formal students.

 

Jim did record this instruction on video and we preserve it without alteration.

 

If you were Chinese and in the Indonesian school the information would be the same.

 

I know, dear MegaMind, I know. 

[Zork]

8 hours ago, GSmaster said:

 

I have actually stored those Images in some remote place

 

Anyway this is all there is to western mopai

 

@Goku76 MM's little cult was very mad when these leaked out in public, as nothing makes them unique any longer

.................

.................

.................

 

 

jim's poses only betray that he was an amateur. Feet in horse stance not parallel. Hands too high, then at some other pic his hands are at a different height while doing the same exercise.

These pics show bad technique that could be fixed by a master within one or two months.

Are the WMPs trying to convince me that jim was ready to teach?

Judging from the pics he wasn't ready at all!

5 hours ago, MegaMind said:

If we had to the power to force people who claim it is a fraud, a hoax, etc, to actually practice and see the reality of it for themselves certainly we would, but that isn't something we can do.

Nice goalpost movement! But it disqualifies you in football.

Well it is a fraud 100% because you are not clear about what the expected results of the first levels of your practice are.

Obscure references to "feeling well, rejuvenated, sleeping well, having more energy" are head-signs for scamgong.

Sensing qi isn't unique to any practice really.

What do you expect them to see and why do you believe that it is unique in mopai and for example not happening in Kriya yoga?

[Apech]

(Mo Pai) Life is peaceful there
(Mo Pai) In the open air
(Mo Pai) Where the skies are blue

(Mo Pai) This is what we're gonna do 

 

 

 

[Starjumper]

9 hours ago, MegaMind said:

Falling forward was intentional and was the expected result.

 

That's crazy, because when I push someone (or myself) away, they/i do not go forward, we go 'away'.

 

Quote

According to Jim he went to the close by restroom while John continued to project his yin field, and recreated the effect alone in the restroom.

 

So Jim needed John's intervention?   

 

 Yin field?  

Edited January 14, 2020 by Starjumper

[Earl Grey]

3 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

So Jim needed John's intervention?   

 

 Yin field?  

 

Yeah, what I don't get is this constant talk about scientific evidence when they don't have the experience or understanding of Yin let alone scientific documentation to explain Yin themselves...

[doc benway]

19 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

Very colorful.. brings to mind the wind blowing away ash (trusting you will get the reference).

Roger that

 

19 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

I'm going to point to a particular phrase from the above quote,  "people, who consider themselves practitioners," and directly ask a question. Was the implication these people are not "true practitioners" intended?

No

 

19 hours ago, ilumairen said:

Apparently there are those who, for their own reasons, feel they do.

 

This is your assessment, and I can't help but note the similarities with this, and my father's assessments and proclamations when my sisters and I could finally speak of the abuses we had experienced at the hands of our mother.

Yes, all I have to offer is my assessment. Take it or leave it.

I've seen this dynamic play out with the Mo Pai folks many times.

Always the same. 

Interesting to equate this with childhood experiences of abuse.

I guess anything can become a touchstone for deep reactivity.

 

19 hours ago, ilumairen said:

There are wounds here, sometimes to the individuals posting and sometimes to people whose suffering was only witnessed. There is concern. Perhaps this can be filed under a "can't let go," but honestly who are any of us to tell another when it's "time to let go"? In my experience this happens in its own time, and simply can't be forced by the self or anyone else without creating further karmic seeds through repression. 

Very true

 

19 hours ago, ilumairen said:

I'm well aware of what I'm doing in this thread, are you?

Yes, wasting my time apparently.

I started, erased, and reworded my post a few times over the past few days... weeks? before finally posting.

I think it's like Taomeow pointed out to me once, I have this thing where I try to protect people.

I guess we each need to dance our little dance...

 

Here's mine

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Starjumper]

WMP's teacher:

 

My teacher:

Edited January 14, 2020 by Starjumper

[Goku76]

Instead of arguing all the time on this forum members should do this 

1) train all the time and see if YOU  ever get like John Chang then have scientist test you and tell the world that we don't have to do dangerous practices for some power.

Or 

2) Beg and please a Indonesian student who is currently still practicing mo pai, probably by actually taking a trip to Indonesia and learn from him and then take pictures, and educate us all on the proper way to do it so we and especially GSmaster has nothing else to say about how fake the instructions are. 

Thank you. 

[Apech]

 

My teacher.

[ilumairen]

 

Quote

No

 

I trust the implication wasn't your intent, and with my question had some vague reflections about your own comments in a different mopai thread abour how the placebo narrative implied something similar to what I asked in mind. 

 

Quote

Interesting to equate this with childhood experiences of abuse.

I guess anything can become a touchstone for deep reactivity.

 

You missed where I was pointing my friend. It was about my father's stifling of expression for the sake of his peace, and the myriad ways this particular dynamic plays out. It was much more about subtle patriarchal dominance (and the ways it is subconsciously self-propegated even in those of us who would generally decry the idea of the patriarchy) than the childhood abuse which became the "taboo topic."

 

What you did here is "minimizing," although again, I suspect this wasn't your actual intent. 

 

Quote

Yes, wasting my time apparently.

 

By the standard you set, yes.

 

Quote

I started, erased, and reworded my post a few times over the past few days... weeks? before finally posting.

 

I'm glad you finally allowed yourself expression.. 

 

Quote

I think it's like Taomeow pointed out to me once, I have this thing where I try to protect people.

 

Some of the people here are doing the same - in their own way. 

 

Quote

I guess we each need to dance our little dance...

 

Just so.

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by ilumairen
typo

[Apech]

This is the level 2 position:

 

[doc benway]

On 1/14/2020 at 11:09 AM, ilumairen said:

You missed where I was pointing my friend.

I did get your implication.

 

On 1/14/2020 at 11:09 AM, ilumairen said:

 

It was about my father's stifling of expression for the sake of his peace, and the myriad ways this particular dynamic plays out. It was much more about subtle patriarchal dominance (and the ways it is subconsciously self-propegated even in those of us who would generally decry the idea of the patriarchy) than the childhood abuse which became the "taboo topic."

My peace is not disturbed by this thread.

I have no interest in stifling expression.

Everything that can be said about Mo Pai, good and bad, has been rehashed on this website in innumerable threads over the past decade. None of that has changed the tenor and content of this debate one iota.

I'm simply suggesting that continued discussion of the topic with its adherents is futile.

They have amply demonstrated they are immune to rational thought and common sense when it comes to the topic.

 

 

On 1/14/2020 at 11:09 AM, ilumairen said:

What you did here is "minimizing," although again, I suspect this wasn't your actual intent. 

Minimizing is intended with respect to this specific subject matter.

If not for debate here, I wonder how much attention it gets anywhere?

We are keeping it alive with this very thread.

I believe the number of people who actually commit to the practice is quite small.

I do not think they are growing. 

Otherwise they would not continuously return here and maintain a presence despite the hostility.

This is probably the only place they have any success recruiting.

It does not take 55 pages to discuss the risks of their training fragments.

All it would take is a pinned FAQ and the occasional response to unsubstantiated claims.

 

That said, if y'all want to continue the discussion and arguments in perpetuity here, I sincerely hope it brings some sort of fruition.

I'm just raising the possibility that there may be more valuable and productive discussion to be had with the DaoBums than Mo Pai.

 

Peace

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

The profound centeredness and silence of genuine spiritual experience is often absent from spiritual debate.  (Not that I don´t occasionally love myself some jittery, over-stimulating distraction in the form of a fiercely repetitive Mo Pai fight.)

[Starjumper]

OK, good news!  Thanks to GSmaster, who fortunately saved the pictures of Jim demonstrating the two exercises,  i was able to replace the original pictures which the Wimps deleted so that they could retain control.  You can find them in the second post in this thread.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Starjumper

[Earl Grey]

37 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

OK, good news!  Thanks to GSmaster, who fortunately saved the pictures of Jim demonstrating the two exercises,  i was able to replace the original pictures which the Wimps deleted so that they could retain control.  You can find them in the second post in this thread.

 

 

 

Ever wonder if Jim himself scrutinized people to let them study Mo Pai with him? Or if he held them to the scientific testing video evidence and such that they demand? From a few people who knew him before he died, even if they didn't want to learn, he was practically insisting on teaching people whenever they approached him. 

 

So if Jim never scrutinized potential acolytes to believe in scientific objective evidence and proof, I wonder why his students do. 

[Power Of Will13]

On 14.01.2020 at 12:40 AM, GSmaster said:

 

 

what do you think? 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Power Of Will13
Add photo

[Goku76]

21 hours ago, GSmaster said:

 

This guy has less Qi than myself

And what makes you think that?

 

21 hours ago, Power Of Will13 said:

 

 

what do you think? 

Who is this in the photograph is this you?

[Power Of Will13]

3 hours ago, Goku76 said:

Who is this in the photograph is this you

 

@Goku76 this is Kostas Dervenis.

[MegaMind]

On 1/16/2020 at 11:30 AM, Earl Grey said:

 

Ever wonder if Jim himself scrutinized people to let them study Mo Pai with him? Or if he held them to the scientific testing video evidence and such that they demand? From a few people who knew him before he died, even if they didn't want to learn, he was practically insisting on teaching people whenever they approached him. 

 

So if Jim never scrutinized potential acolytes to believe in scientific objective evidence and proof, I wonder why his students do. 

 

The entire reason Jim (and Kosta for that matter) went to Indonesia was because of Lawrence Blair's documentary.

 

Jim searched out many masters but could find none that could offer him evidence of their abilities like John.

Edited January 18, 2020 by MegaMind

[MegaMind]

On 1/16/2020 at 10:52 AM, Starjumper said:

OK, good news!  Thanks to GSmaster, who fortunately saved the pictures of Jim demonstrating the two exercises,  i was able to replace the original pictures which the Wimps deleted so that they could retain control.  You can find them in the second post in this thread.

 

 

 

We never deleted your pictures.

[MegaMind]

On 1/15/2020 at 12:41 PM, steve said:

I did get your implication.

 

My peace is not disturbed by this thread.

I have no interest in stifling expression.

Everything that can be said about Mo Pai, good and bad, has been rehashed on this website in innumerable threads over the past decade. None of that has changed the tenor and content of this debate one iota.

I'm simply suggesting that continued discussion of the topic with its adherents is futile.

They have amply demonstrated they are immune to rational thought and common sense when it comes to the topic.

 

 

Minimizing is intended with respect to this specific subject matter.

If not for debate here, I wonder how much attention it gets anywhere?

We are keeping it alive with this very thread.

I believe the number of people who actually commit to the practice is quite small.

I do not think they are growing. 

Otherwise they would not continuously return here and maintain a presence despite the hostility.

This is probably the only place they have any success recruiting.

It does not take 55 pages to discuss the risks of their training fragments.

All it would take is a pinned FAQ and the occasional response to unsubstantiated claims.

 

That said, if y'all want to continue the discussion and arguments in perpetuity here, I sincerely hope it brings some sort of fruition.

I'm just raising the possibility that there may be more valuable and productive discussion to be had with the DaoBums than Mo Pai.

 

Peace

 

 

 

 

 

"I'm simply suggesting that continued discussion of the topic with its adherents is futile.

They have amply demonstrated they are immune to rational thought and common sense when it comes to the topic."

 

We want evidence that a practice does something before we practice it.

 

So far only Mo Pai and Tummo have evidence gathered with scientists and medical doctors present on camera to do their best to rule out fraud occurring.

 

Certainly we hope in the future more practices and teachers will be willing to come forward.

[MegaMind]

On 1/14/2020 at 1:30 AM, Zork said:

jim's poses only betray that he was an amateur. Feet in horse stance not parallel. Hands too high, then at some other pic his hands are at a different height while doing the same exercise.

These pics show bad technique that could be fixed by a master within one or two months.

Are the WMPs trying to convince me that jim was ready to teach?

Judging from the pics he wasn't ready at all!

Nice goalpost movement! But it disqualifies you in football.

Well it is a fraud 100% because you are not clear about what the expected results of the first levels of your practice are.

Obscure references to "feeling well, rejuvenated, sleeping well, having more energy" are head-signs for scamgong.

Sensing qi isn't unique to any practice really.

What do you expect them to see and why do you believe that it is unique in mopai and for example not happening in Kriya yoga?

 

"Obscure references to "feeling well, rejuvenated, sleeping well, having more energy" are head-signs for scamgong."

 

We are not making any such claims. 

[MegaMind]

On 1/13/2020 at 1:27 PM, Starjumper said:

I think most of us are aware of the popular statement that goes along the lines of "If you repeat a lie often enough people will think it's true".  So I want to discuss some lies that have been repeated here hundreds of times.

 

Lie #1 - "Jim was the most advanced Western student of Mo Pai"

 

Lie #2 - "Jim was more advanced than many Indonesian students"

 

Lie #3 - The instructions posted do not mention the importance of sitting on the ground"

 

Lie #4 -  "The instructions posted in the OP are not the real instructions"

 

 

 

So let's talk about honesty for a minute.  In order for a person to be honest they must first have self honesty.  Self honesty is a prerequisite for honesty in general.  As has been pointed out here by almost everyone, the troll lies all the time, and there can be no doubt that he also lies to himself a lot, which is the mental space inhabited by all fundamentalist cult members.  So you see, he can't help it.

 

Now, Lets take a closer look at those lies.

 

Lie #1 - "Jim was the most advanced Western student of Mo Pai".   There were only two Western students of Mo Pai, Kostas and JIm, and Kostas dropped out when he discovered it was a farce.  In a way the statement could be true, but it is very misleading, so the intent of stating it is a big lie!   If true it means that Jim may have advanced more than someone who dropped out, which is meaningless.  If true it also means that Jim was more advanced than only ONE person, which is also meaningless.

 

The goal is obviously to make it look like the Wimps have learned from some advanced authority on the subject, when in fact he was a beginner who performed very poorly.  Therefore it is a big lie.

 

Lie #2 - "Jim was more advanced than many Indonesian students".  This statement is playing with words, twisting words around to make a lie of intent seem plausible.  Notice he used the word 'many', instead of 'most'.  What is implied by this lie of intent is that Jim was more advanced than most Indonesian students, but the clever troll gave himself an out by using the word 'many' instead.  if you think about it for a microsecond or two you will realize that the statement is very misleading.  What if there are a hundred students of Indonesian Mo Pai, and Jim was more advanced than only ten of them.  Then some liar could legally get away with saying more advanced than many, if that is the case (it is probably not the case, and is something Jim said to promote himself).  In any case the pictures of Jim illustrating the two exercises shows a lot of mistakes which were obviously not corrected by John Chang.  We can all be sure that John had other Indonesian students for years before that Bozo started in with him, and it stands to reason that these Indonesian students will have received more corrections or already been aware of correct methods, would have advanced to higher levels in those years, and clearly been more advanced than Jim was.

 

The goal is obviously to make it look like the Wimps have learned from some advanced authority on the subject, when in fact he was a beginner who performed very poorly.  Therefore it is a big lie.

 

Lie #3 - The instructions posted do not mention the importance of sitting on the ground".  The pictures which were deleted by the Wimps (I should have downloaded them) showed Jim sitting with his slouch and his facial grimace, sitting cross legged on the ground.  Although it did not mention the requirement in the original description written by Jim which is posted in the OP.  He must have corrected this error of omission in his further explanations which were written for the Wimps. 

 

Above all, it must be known that the only reason sitting on the ground could be useful for WMP is because the techniques themselves do not contain the common methods used for the purpose of cultivating yin chi.

 

Therefore it is clear that the reason for posting these lies and obfuscations is because the Wimps want to appear as authorities in order to get followers.  If they were serious practitioners, or if they had self honesty, they would not be concerned with followers at their extremely low leves of developement.

 

Lie #4 -  "The instructions posted in the OP are not the real instructions". - I'll let you guys play around with that one for now, it's easy, just use some common sense.

 

 

"There were only two Western students of Mo Pai, Kostas and JIm, and Kostas dropped out when he discovered it was a farce."

 

There was Andreas Pollack from Australia, and many others as well which have not come forward publicly.

 

 

 

 

 

"Lie #2 - "Jim was more advanced than many Indonesian students""

 

Very few Indonesian students were able to pass the exam Jim did.

 

 

 

 

 

"Lie #3 - The instructions posted do not mention the importance of sitting on the ground"."

 

In the instructions we have there are two paragraphs of instruction detailing how important being grounded is, and also the methods to help deal with things like mosquitoes, rain, snow etc.

 

But it is not just information on being grounded that has been removed, literally every single thing which is important to the practice has also been removed.

Edited January 18, 2020 by MegaMind

[MegaMind]

On 1/13/2020 at 2:21 PM, GSmaster said:

Wait, did they delete the pictures from instructions? How?

 

And now they claim those instructions with Pictures of Jim are not real, LoL

 

We never deleted any pictures.