.

[Zork]

@steve

No steve, NO!

This is not the case.

These people are trying to force others to practice their system, disregarding free will and also showing complete disregard for other effective systems in the process.

Why on earth should we allow them to carry out this twisted plan?

From megamind's latest posts we can deduce they have been taken over by a very insidious thoughtform.

We shouldn't ignore them, they won't go away! It has been over a decade that they have no access to anything substantial despite training and this fact has not dissuaded them at all!

They are dangerous.

[Walker]

21 minutes ago, steve said:

Sorry if I annoy anyone with my comments but this is ridiculous.

 

If there's anything at DaoBums less worthy of a practitioner's time and energy than arguing about Mo Pai, I don't know what that would look like. Sean intervened with the political threads because the subject matter has actual impact on the lives of people. Mo Pai is irrelevant to the lives of everyone but the handful of folks who choose to practice its 2 introductory levels. It is of no consequence whatsoever to anyone else on Earth. I suspect Sean chooses not to bother with this thread, other than to maybe check what page it's up to and chuckle once in a while. 

 

No one every learns anything or changes their opinions regarding Mo Pai. The only possible personal growth that could come out of this 55 page argument would be if someone could actually let go and move on, never returning to this pointless exercise. The only value to this thread is to see how much time and energy people, who consider themselves practitioners, are willing to invest in beating the dusty, powdered bones of a long dead horse's corpse.

 

Life is short, does anyone really need to spend precious seconds, minutes, and hours in this endless discussion?

The Mo Pai crew are clearly not ready to give up on their dreams and no one else is likely to ever understand their obsession with a few fragments of what may be a useful a system...

 

This is not about Sean.

It's about those who can't let go of a dead and pointless argument.

It's about looking at ourselves and our choices in life as reflected in our behavior here.

 

After more than a decade of them, this was my first time participating in a thread on this topic.

 

With some persistence, creativity, and personal abasement, I managed to ascertain from MegaMind that Jim McMillan and Kosta Danaos, the sources of the instructions that he follows, were not (so far as he knows) formally initiated into the Indonesian Mopai, and therefore none of McMillan's and Danaos' students received formal induction into the living Mopai lineage. 

 

I actually think this is important information to have out there. It tells prospective students that there is almost certainly no link between what they can get in English that is labelled as "Mopai" and the actual "pai" (lineage/sect) that uses the name of Moh-Tzu in Indonesia. To those prone to believing in such things, it also raises the question of whether or not the spiritual guardians of this lineage would approve of the teaching that is going on on the English-speaking internet, and the spiritual/karmic consequences that could come about from this. Finally, it makes it extremely clear that when (not if--no practice is without pitfalls and dangers) problems arise, the English-speakers who use the name of "Mopai" really and truly are incapable of seeking out their would-be elders in the lineage for instruction in order to learn how to solve these problems. In all honesty, I tip my hat to MegaMind for finally putting this information into the public sphere. 

 

As for whether or not the behavior in this thread--my own included--shows anything even remotely approaching the Noble Eight-fold Path, well, I will not defend it. I am sure kleshas were on display from a great many people, me no less than anybody else.

 

And yet,

 

I think there is a certain honesty in this. People showed their "true colors," which I'd rather see than any contrived veneer of civility, behind which who knows what lurks. So often what lurks beneath "good behavior" is so much uglier than foul language and name calling that I'm prone to say that I'd take the latter any day.

 

Is lots of the behavior in this thread shameful, from a certain standpoint? I won't say it is not. But is it all pointless? I do not believe so. Some important points have been made by a great many people in between the name-calling, mockery, swearing, raw emotion, attachment, vengefulness, and so forth. These important points are that: the so-called English-language "Mopai" practices may be dangerous; the practices are extremely incomplete; the practices are wholly severed from their still-living transmitters (to wit, Chang and Danaos, though it seems there maybe other teachers in the school in Indonesia); they may or may not be different from what is/was taught in Indonesia (although MegaMind stresses that they alter nothing they learned from McMillan and Danaos, and that may well be true).

 

You say that none of this matters beyond a tiny sliver of people, but have you met people with psychosis related to qigong practice? Physical illness related to qigong practice? Years of their life wasted in cults combined with the trauma that comes from this? I have, and it has left me with the strong sense that the more information that is out there about any shadowy group (sorry, MegaMind, but you keep much in the shadows, I think you can agree with that) with a very questionable past, the better. I want it to be public knowledge where the so-called Levels 1-2B come from. 

 

Speaking more generally, beyond the scope of what this thread originally centered on (but came to include now that Dawei's appearance has widened the scope), it is a fact that nowadays one finds more cussing, name-calling, and general rowdiness in some threads than used to be seen here.

 

But I don't think it's gotten out of control. Matterofact, as I said a page or two back, I think it's been limited to only a few places. I see a lot of pleasant, focused, informative, deep threads coexisting at the same time.

 

As for where the low-brow behavior has come into play, my personal (and yes, of course, biased) opinion is that there's generally been a point to it all, and a method to the madness. 

 

Back in the days of the "mod squad," what with their stern, blue font warnings in officialese (not to mentioned red font fiiinnnaaallll warnings), it was indeed often off limits to call people out, especially if that was done in a way that involved any "playground tactics." A certain culture of politeness was, for lack of a better word, enforced.

 

But my observation--after about a decade of all that--is that a certain type of troll and a certain type of sicko thrives in the polite, policed environment. And the Dao Bums, for a long time, was a platform, soapbox, and playground for a good number of those trolls and sickos who figured out the rules, and played by them.

 

Since the mods got sent back to the peanut gallery half a year ago, I've seen a certain anarchic "immune system" kick into action more than once here, and I've seen a couple of people and groups with long histories of very disturbing behavior get their noses rubbed in their shit in a way that was never possible in the past, because calls for politeness quite often ended up trumping calls for accountability. 

 

The anarchic immune system sure does get ugly sometimes, but I study medicine, and I'll tell you, sometimes a bout of explosive diarrhea, vomiting, and delirious feverish ranting is just the ticket for expelling deadly microbes. My current working hypothesis ('cause I'm not sure I'm right about all this) is that we nowadays sometimes see something analogous to all that. 

 

Shit, could this thread be handled better? Could the thread with Drew busking for $20 be handled better? Sure, I guess so. Are some of us going too far sometimes? I guess maybe, maybe probably. But from my standpoint, where I look onto the world with admittedly one-sided vision and far-from-total wisdom, what might look like simple bullying here has an element of protecting the vulnerable from self-appointed teachers who can, will, and too often do suck aspiring practitioners into weird, dangerous worlds that are not what they claim to be. If indeed that's what's happening, and we're all not simply sick puppies fighting for the sake of it, then may it continue. 

 

Bringing this concern back to this thread:

 

The English-speaking "Mopai," it can now be said without doubt (thanks to MegaMind's eventual admission), is in no, way, shape, or form affiliated with the actual, living, extant Mopai in Indonesia from which they take their name and (controversially) some teachings. Furthermore, the so-called "Mopai" of the English-speaking world was not founded by any individual who was ever, in any formal and traditional manner, made a fully-fledged member of the Indonesian Mopai.

 

This is information I, personally, hope remains easily available for aspirants to take into account before they begin practicing whatever it is that's in those PDFs.

 

Was it extracted at cost to the civility of this board and maybe my own personal integrity? On the real, I dunno. I accept my inability to know, and the possibility that I may pay a heavy karmic cost. I was doing my best, and I know it might not have been good enough.

 

All that said, sometimes you gotta speak up, sometimes you gotta act. I do so plenty "in real life," and sometimes I do so here. That might just mean I'm a pompous megalomaniac who's going to spend a long time dealing with the consequences of my actions. I guess I'll learn whether or not that's the case sooner or later. But, as your own foray into this thread shows, Steve, even when one is laying one's eyes upon something wholly "irrelevant," sometimes one stops and decides to get involved, as pointless as I guess that might be. 

 

I don't begrudge you your jumping into the fray to try and set the course of a ship that you seem to think has gone astray.

 

Matterofact, I relate to it. 

 

And welcome it. 

 

Though I don't wholly agree with it. 

 

Good day to ya. 

[Apech]

33 minutes ago, Walker said:

...

 

Back in the days of the "mod squad," what with their stern, blue font warnings in officialese (not to mentioned red font fiiinnnaaallll warnings), it was indeed often off limits to call people out, especially if that was done in a way that involved any "playground tactics." A certain culture of politeness was, for lack of a better word, enforced.

 

But my observation--after about a decade of all that--is that a certain type of troll and a certain type of sicko thrives in the polite, policed environment. And the Dao Bums, for a long time, was a platform, soapbox, and playground for a good number of those trolls and sickos who figured out the rules, and played by them.

 

Since the mods got sent back to the peanut gallery half a year ago, I've seen a certain anarchic "immune system" kick into action more than once here, and I've seen a couple of people and groups with long histories of very disturbing behavior get their noses rubbed in their shit in a way that was never possible in the past, because calls for politeness quite often ended up trumping calls for accountability. 

 

The anarchic immune system sure does get ugly sometimes, but I study medicine, and I'll tell you, sometimes a bout of explosive diarrhea, vomiting, and delirious feverish ranting is just the ticket for expelling deadly microbes. My current working hypothesis ('cause I'm not sure I'm right about all this) is that we nowadays sometimes see something analogous to all that. 

 

Shit, could this thread be handled better? Could the thread with Drew busking for $20 be handled better? Sure, I guess so. Are some of us going too far sometimes? I guess maybe, maybe probably. But from my standpoint, where I look onto the world with admittedly one-sided vision and far-from-total wisdom, what might look like simple bullying here has an element of protecting the vulnerable from self-appointed teachers who can, will, and too often do suck aspiring practitioners into weird, dangerous worlds that are not what they claim to be. If indeed that's what's happening, and we're all not simply sick puppies fighting for the sake of it, then may it continue. 

...

 

Hi,

 

When I was in the 'mod squad' I used to use the blue/red escalation thing - in fact I might have invented it (but I'm not sure about that).  I thought it worked quite well considering - especially when the mod team were charged with the very task of allowing the conversation to continue while keeping the lid on some kinds of attacks and so on - not to sanitise the board but to make sure the conversation did continue.  There was never any objection or limit to people disagreeing about ideas or systems.  It was supposed to be what Trunk called a level playing field - without abuse, dog piling or personal attacks.  This was so people didn't have to wade through the pools of explosive diarrhoea which you seem to enjoy.

 

Where the moderation went a bit wrong was the real and perceived preference/protection of Trump politically and Jeff/Light Group in terms of practice.  Then Sean stepped in with a completely different philosophy (from his previous one) and we are where we are.  Which is who knows where to be honest.

 

 

 

I always thought that the mod team should treat everyone exactly the same and by objective rules which people sign up to when they join.  Apart from that they stop spam and get rid of trolls and sock puppets.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Apech

[Walker]

27 minutes ago, Apech said:

Where the moderation went a bit wrong was the real and perceived preference/protection of Trump politically and Jeff/Light Group in terms of practice.  

 

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I disagree with it. That's cool, though.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Walker

[Apech]

40 minutes ago, Walker said:

 

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I disagree with it. That's cool, though.

 

Your disagreement has been noted and filed.  A red file.

[ralis]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

 

 

Where the moderation went a bit wrong was the real and perceived preference/protection of Trump politically and Jeff/Light Group in terms of practice.  Then Sean stepped in with a completely different philosophy (from his previous one) and we are where we are.  Which is who knows where to be honest.

 

 

 

I always thought that the mod team should treat everyone exactly the same and by objective rules which people sign up to when they join.  Apart from that they stop spam and get rid of trolls and sock puppets.

 

 

 

I see it more than just "a bit wrong", but way out of balance! Moderation leaned heavily in favor of alt-right conspiracy theories, misogyny, racism and veiled threats towards me. Moreover, there were posts that threatened politicians. I reported every instance and nothing was done! 

[ilumairen]

 

3 hours ago, steve said:

The only value to this thread is to see how much time and energy people, who consider themselves practitioners, are willing to invest in beating the dusty, powdered bones of a long dead horse's corpse.

 

Very colorful.. brings to mind the wind blowing away ash (trusting you will get the reference).

 

I'm going to point to a particular phrase from the above quote,  "people, who consider themselves practitioners," and directly ask a question. Was the implication these people are not "true practitioners" intended?

 

3 hours ago, steve said:

Life is short, does anyone really need to spend precious seconds, minutes, and hours in this endless discussion?

 

Apparently there are those who, for their own reasons, feel they do.

 

3 hours ago, steve said:

This is not about Sean.

It's about those who can't let go of a dead and pointless argument.

 

This is your assessment, and I can't help but note the similarities with this, and my father's assessments and proclamations when my sisters and I could finally speak of the abuses we had experienced at the hands of our mother.

 

There are wounds here, sometimes to the individuals posting and sometimes to people whose suffering was only witnessed. There is concern. Perhaps this can be filed under a "can't let go," but honestly who are any of us to tell another when it's "time to let go"? In my experience this happens in its own time, and simply can't be forced by the self or anyone else without creating further karmic seeds through repression. 

 

3 hours ago, steve said:

It's about looking at ourselves and our choices in life as reflected in our behavior here.

 

I'm well aware of what I'm doing in this thread, are you?

[Starjumper]

Well, my internet service won't access most sites at this time so you all are kind of stuck with me here for awhile.

 

My original goal for creating this thread was to serve as a warning about WMP that could be found on internet searches, so for that sake it is good that it's staying clean enough to stay in this Taoism forum and not hidden in a forum that is not accesible to searches.

[Starjumper]

I think most of us are aware of the popular statement that goes along the lines of "If you repeat a lie often enough people will think it's true".  So I want to discuss some lies that have been repeated here hundreds of times.

 

Lie #1 - "Jim was the most advanced Western student of Mo Pai"

 

Lie #2 - "Jim was more advanced than many Indonesian students"

 

Lie #3 - The instructions posted do not mention the importance of sitting on the ground"

 

Lie #4 -  "The instructions posted in the OP are not the real instructions"

 

 

 

So let's talk about honesty for a minute.  In order for a person to be honest they must first have self honesty.  Self honesty is a prerequisite for honesty in general.  As has been pointed out here by almost everyone, the troll lies all the time, and there can be no doubt that he also lies to himself a lot, which is the mental space inhabited by all fundamentalist cult members.  So you see, he can't help it.

 

Now, Lets take a closer look at those lies.

 

Lie #1 - "Jim was the most advanced Western student of Mo Pai".   There were only two Western students of Mo Pai, Kostas and JIm, and Kostas dropped out when he discovered it was a farce.  In a way the statement could be true, but it is very misleading, so the intent of stating it is a big lie!   If true it means that Jim may have advanced more than someone who dropped out, which is meaningless.  If true it also means that Jim was more advanced than only ONE person, which is also meaningless.

 

The goal is obviously to make it look like the Wimps have learned from some advanced authority on the subject, when in fact he was a beginner who performed very poorly.  Therefore it is a big lie.

 

Lie #2 - "Jim was more advanced than many Indonesian students".  This statement is playing with words, twisting words around to make a lie of intent seem plausible.  Notice he used the word 'many', instead of 'most'.  What is implied by this lie of intent is that Jim was more advanced than most Indonesian students, but the clever troll gave himself an out by using the word 'many' instead.  if you think about it for a microsecond or two you will realize that the statement is very misleading.  What if there are a hundred students of Indonesian Mo Pai, and Jim was more advanced than only ten of them.  Then some liar could legally get away with saying more advanced than many, if that is the case (it is probably not the case, and is something Jim said to promote himself).  In any case the pictures of Jim illustrating the two exercises shows a lot of mistakes which were obviously not corrected by John Chang.  We can all be sure that John had other Indonesian students for years before that Bozo started in with him, and it stands to reason that these Indonesian students will have received more corrections or already been aware of correct methods, would have advanced to higher levels in those years, and clearly been more advanced than Jim was.

 

The goal is obviously to make it look like the Wimps have learned from some advanced authority on the subject, when in fact he was a beginner who performed very poorly.  Therefore it is a big lie.

 

Lie #3 - The instructions posted do not mention the importance of sitting on the ground".  The pictures which were deleted by the Wimps (I should have downloaded them) showed Jim sitting with his slouch and his facial grimace, sitting cross legged on the ground.  Although it did not mention the requirement in the original description written by Jim which is posted in the OP.  He must have corrected this error of omission in his further explanations which were written for the Wimps. 

 

Above all, it must be known that the only reason sitting on the ground could be useful for WMP is because the techniques themselves do not contain the common methods used for the purpose of cultivating yin chi.

 

Therefore it is clear that the reason for posting these lies and obfuscations is because the Wimps want to appear as authorities in order to get followers.  If they were serious practitioners, or if they had self honesty, they would not be concerned with followers at their extremely low leves of developement.

 

Lie #4 -  "The instructions posted in the OP are not the real instructions". - I'll let you guys play around with that one for now, it's easy, just use some common sense.

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, GSmaster said:

Wait, did they delete the pictures from instructions? How?

 

I was sent the identical same instructions by two different Wimp spies, unsolicited by me.  I copied and pasted the instructions with the pictures, but the picture files were stored on some page that the Wimps controlled, therefore they were able to delete those pictures from where they were stored.   The troll will say that it is because the instructions are wrong, but that's another obvious lie, clearly they deleted the pictures as part of their attempt to hide the teachings from the public so they could retain control, however the pictures aren't really needed because the verbal descriptions are good enough. 

 

1 hour ago, GSmaster said:

And now they claim those instructions with Pictures of Jim are not real, LoL

 

Maybe that's because they removed the pictures?  I think some internet wizards might be able to find those pictures archived somewhere and share them with us again.  it is my understanding that internet files are saved as archives for a long time after being deleted.

 

The pictures will show some of the following.  In the first exercise, the common cross legged Zen style sitting meditation (which is no secret anywhere, to anyone), Jim is shown slouching badly and listing to one side, in addition he has a grimace on his face.  Most amateurs know that the back should be straight and the face should be relaxed, but Jim must not have known that because he used them as examples of how to do it correctly.

 

OOps,  it's lunch time ... later

 

[Starjumper]

Outstanding!  Thanks so much.  I'm going to copy those, upload them to the internet, and put them back into the opening post.

 

[Power Of Will13]

36 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

 

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

I think some internet wizards might be able to find those pictures archived somewhere and share them with us again.

 

I have actually stored those Images in some remote place

 

Anyway this is all there is to western mopai

 

@Goku76 MM's little cult was very mad when these leaked out in public, as nothing makes them unique any longer

 

Edited 29 minutes ago by GSmaster

 

it becomes too  hot here... Just for your information and I think it is very crucial to say now about real warnings - this practice may work but even if you do it like you think it was right it still can be cause of sickness. You just even don’t understand what you are doing here with your body... you can get so massive damage of your self that you cannot come back to normal state ever. This is a REAL warning. You either understand what you are doing or not doing it at all!  

[Power Of Will13]

Okey, if you don’t understand you can get:

 

-heart failure

  -neurodegenerative diseases

  -Alzheimer's disease

  -Parkinson's disease

  metabolic disorders

  -depletion

  - in rare cases, cancer

[Starjumper]

Plus strokes, Grunters frequently die of strokes.

[MegaMind]

11 hours ago, Zork said:

@steve

No steve, NO!

This is not the case.

These people are trying to force others to practice their system, disregarding free will and also showing complete disregard for other effective systems in the process.

Why on earth should we allow them to carry out this twisted plan?

From megamind's latest posts we can deduce they have been taken over by a very insidious thoughtform.

We shouldn't ignore them, they won't go away! It has been over a decade that they have no access to anything substantial despite training and this fact has not dissuaded them at all!

They are dangerous.

 

 

If we had to the power to force people who claim it is a fraud, a hoax, etc, to actually practice and see the reality of it for themselves certainly we would, but that isn't something we can do.

 

We can only present the evidence we have and hope some decide to come see for themselves.

Edited January 14, 2020 by MegaMind

[MegaMind]

10 hours ago, Walker said:

 

After more than a decade of them, this was my first time participating in a thread on this topic.

 

With some persistence, creativity, and personal abasement, I managed to ascertain from MegaMind that Jim McMillan and Kosta Danaos, the sources of the instructions that he follows, were not (so far as he knows) formally initiated into the Indonesian Mopai, and therefore none of McMillan's and Danaos' students received formal induction into the living Mopai lineage. 

 

I actually think this is important information to have out there. It tells prospective students that there is almost certainly no link between what they can get in English that is labelled as "Mopai" and the actual "pai" (lineage/sect) that uses the name of Moh-Tzu in Indonesia. To those prone to believing in such things, it also raises the question of whether or not the spiritual guardians of this lineage would approve of the teaching that is going on on the English-speaking internet, and the spiritual/karmic consequences that could come about from this. Finally, it makes it extremely clear that when (not if--no practice is without pitfalls and dangers) problems arise, the English-speakers who use the name of "Mopai" really and truly are incapable of seeking out their would-be elders in the lineage for instruction in order to learn how to solve these problems. In all honesty, I tip my hat to MegaMind for finally putting this information into the public sphere. 

 

As for whether or not the behavior in this thread--my own included--shows anything even remotely approaching the Noble Eight-fold Path, well, I will not defend it. I am sure kleshas were on display from a great many people, me no less than anybody else.

 

And yet,

 

I think there is a certain honesty in this. People showed their "true colors," which I'd rather see than any contrived veneer of civility, behind which who knows what lurks. So often what lurks beneath "good behavior" is so much uglier than foul language and name calling that I'm prone to say that I'd take the latter any day.

 

Is lots of the behavior in this thread shameful, from a certain standpoint? I won't say it is not. But is it all pointless? I do not believe so. Some important points have been made by a great many people in between the name-calling, mockery, swearing, raw emotion, attachment, vengefulness, and so forth. These important points are that: the so-called English-language "Mopai" practices may be dangerous; the practices are extremely incomplete; the practices are wholly severed from their still-living transmitters (to wit, Chang and Danaos, though it seems there maybe other teachers in the school in Indonesia); they may or may not be different from what is/was taught in Indonesia (although MegaMind stresses that they alter nothing they learned from McMillan and Danaos, and that may well be true).

 

You say that none of this matters beyond a tiny sliver of people, but have you met people with psychosis related to qigong practice? Physical illness related to qigong practice? Years of their life wasted in cults combined with the trauma that comes from this? I have, and it has left me with the strong sense that the more information that is out there about any shadowy group (sorry, MegaMind, but you keep much in the shadows, I think you can agree with that) with a very questionable past, the better. I want it to be public knowledge where the so-called Levels 1-2B come from. 

 

Speaking more generally, beyond the scope of what this thread originally centered on (but came to include now that Dawei's appearance has widened the scope), it is a fact that nowadays one finds more cussing, name-calling, and general rowdiness in some threads than used to be seen here.

 

But I don't think it's gotten out of control. Matterofact, as I said a page or two back, I think it's been limited to only a few places. I see a lot of pleasant, focused, informative, deep threads coexisting at the same time.

 

As for where the low-brow behavior has come into play, my personal (and yes, of course, biased) opinion is that there's generally been a point to it all, and a method to the madness. 

 

Back in the days of the "mod squad," what with their stern, blue font warnings in officialese (not to mentioned red font fiiinnnaaallll warnings), it was indeed often off limits to call people out, especially if that was done in a way that involved any "playground tactics." A certain culture of politeness was, for lack of a better word, enforced.

 

But my observation--after about a decade of all that--is that a certain type of troll and a certain type of sicko thrives in the polite, policed environment. And the Dao Bums, for a long time, was a platform, soapbox, and playground for a good number of those trolls and sickos who figured out the rules, and played by them.

 

Since the mods got sent back to the peanut gallery half a year ago, I've seen a certain anarchic "immune system" kick into action more than once here, and I've seen a couple of people and groups with long histories of very disturbing behavior get their noses rubbed in their shit in a way that was never possible in the past, because calls for politeness quite often ended up trumping calls for accountability. 

 

The anarchic immune system sure does get ugly sometimes, but I study medicine, and I'll tell you, sometimes a bout of explosive diarrhea, vomiting, and delirious feverish ranting is just the ticket for expelling deadly microbes. My current working hypothesis ('cause I'm not sure I'm right about all this) is that we nowadays sometimes see something analogous to all that. 

 

Shit, could this thread be handled better? Could the thread with Drew busking for $20 be handled better? Sure, I guess so. Are some of us going too far sometimes? I guess maybe, maybe probably. But from my standpoint, where I look onto the world with admittedly one-sided vision and far-from-total wisdom, what might look like simple bullying here has an element of protecting the vulnerable from self-appointed teachers who can, will, and too often do suck aspiring practitioners into weird, dangerous worlds that are not what they claim to be. If indeed that's what's happening, and we're all not simply sick puppies fighting for the sake of it, then may it continue. 

 

Bringing this concern back to this thread:

 

The English-speaking "Mopai," it can now be said without doubt (thanks to MegaMind's eventual admission), is in no, way, shape, or form affiliated with the actual, living, extant Mopai in Indonesia from which they take their name and (controversially) some teachings. Furthermore, the so-called "Mopai" of the English-speaking world was not founded by any individual who was ever, in any formal and traditional manner, made a fully-fledged member of the Indonesian Mopai.

 

This is information I, personally, hope remains easily available for aspirants to take into account before they begin practicing whatever it is that's in those PDFs.

 

Was it extracted at cost to the civility of this board and maybe my own personal integrity? On the real, I dunno. I accept my inability to know, and the possibility that I may pay a heavy karmic cost. I was doing my best, and I know it might not have been good enough.

 

All that said, sometimes you gotta speak up, sometimes you gotta act. I do so plenty "in real life," and sometimes I do so here. That might just mean I'm a pompous megalomaniac who's going to spend a long time dealing with the consequences of my actions. I guess I'll learn whether or not that's the case sooner or later. But, as your own foray into this thread shows, Steve, even when one is laying one's eyes upon something wholly "irrelevant," sometimes one stops and decides to get involved, as pointless as I guess that might be. 

 

I don't begrudge you your jumping into the fray to try and set the course of a ship that you seem to think has gone astray.

 

Matterofact, I relate to it. 

 

And welcome it. 

 

Though I don't wholly agree with it. 

 

Good day to ya. 

 

 

 

"Jim McMillan and Kosta Danaos ... were not ... formally initiated into the Indonesian Mopai,"

 

Jim, and Kosta studied formally as John's students.

 

 

 

 

" It tells prospective students that there is almost certainly no link between what they can get in English that is labelled as "Mopai" and the actual "pai" (lineage/sect)"

 

"The English-speaking "Mopai," it can now be said without doubt ..., is in no, way, shape, or form affiliated with the actual, living, extant Mopai in Indonesia from which they take their name and (controversially) some teachings. Furthermore, the so-called "Mopai" of the English-speaking world was not founded by any individual who was ever, in any formal and traditional manner, made a fully-fledged member of the Indonesian Mopai."

 

"different from what is/was taught in Indonesia"

 

Jim recorded John providing instruction. 

 

Jim passed a test that many Indonesian students could not, and reached a level many Indonesian students could not.

 

Jim and Kosta were formally accepted as John's students.

[MegaMind]

4 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

 

Nobody is gonna practice introductory levels.

 

That's like asking adults to go to kindergarten to build sand castles as those are real, and their real estates and villas is a myth, as you personally never been out of kindergarten.

 

According to you you build devices to auto charge your LDT, brain injections and power mutation capsules.

 

Your machines open up portals to other worlds where you fight with 1000000 year old Naga demons.

 

You can shoot lasers out of your eyes and teleport.

 

Now granted that is pretty awesome!

 

If you can really do all that certainly I can see why you claim levels 1, 2a, and 2b are kindergarten sand castles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

 

We are all tired of your bullshit talk and claims, how about you provide evidence of this?

 

Here is Jim passing his exam:

 

 

 

[MegaMind]

11 hours ago, Walker said:

 

After more than a decade of them, this was my first time participating in a thread on this topic.

 

With some persistence, creativity, and personal abasement, I managed to ascertain from MegaMind that Jim McMillan and Kosta Danaos, the sources of the instructions that he follows, were not (so far as he knows) formally initiated into the Indonesian Mopai, and therefore none of McMillan's and Danaos' students received formal induction into the living Mopai lineage. 

 

I actually think this is important information to have out there. It tells prospective students that there is almost certainly no link between what they can get in English that is labelled as "Mopai" and the actual "pai" (lineage/sect) that uses the name of Moh-Tzu in Indonesia. To those prone to believing in such things, it also raises the question of whether or not the spiritual guardians of this lineage would approve of the teaching that is going on on the English-speaking internet, and the spiritual/karmic consequences that could come about from this. Finally, it makes it extremely clear that when (not if--no practice is without pitfalls and dangers) problems arise, the English-speakers who use the name of "Mopai" really and truly are incapable of seeking out their would-be elders in the lineage for instruction in order to learn how to solve these problems. In all honesty, I tip my hat to MegaMind for finally putting this information into the public sphere. 

 

As for whether or not the behavior in this thread--my own included--shows anything even remotely approaching the Noble Eight-fold Path, well, I will not defend it. I am sure kleshas were on display from a great many people, me no less than anybody else.

 

And yet,

 

I think there is a certain honesty in this. People showed their "true colors," which I'd rather see than any contrived veneer of civility, behind which who knows what lurks. So often what lurks beneath "good behavior" is so much uglier than foul language and name calling that I'm prone to say that I'd take the latter any day.

 

Is lots of the behavior in this thread shameful, from a certain standpoint? I won't say it is not. But is it all pointless? I do not believe so. Some important points have been made by a great many people in between the name-calling, mockery, swearing, raw emotion, attachment, vengefulness, and so forth. These important points are that: the so-called English-language "Mopai" practices may be dangerous; the practices are extremely incomplete; the practices are wholly severed from their still-living transmitters (to wit, Chang and Danaos, though it seems there maybe other teachers in the school in Indonesia); they may or may not be different from what is/was taught in Indonesia (although MegaMind stresses that they alter nothing they learned from McMillan and Danaos, and that may well be true).

 

You say that none of this matters beyond a tiny sliver of people, but have you met people with psychosis related to qigong practice? Physical illness related to qigong practice? Years of their life wasted in cults combined with the trauma that comes from this? I have, and it has left me with the strong sense that the more information that is out there about any shadowy group (sorry, MegaMind, but you keep much in the shadows, I think you can agree with that) with a very questionable past, the better. I want it to be public knowledge where the so-called Levels 1-2B come from. 

 

Speaking more generally, beyond the scope of what this thread originally centered on (but came to include now that Dawei's appearance has widened the scope), it is a fact that nowadays one finds more cussing, name-calling, and general rowdiness in some threads than used to be seen here.

 

But I don't think it's gotten out of control. Matterofact, as I said a page or two back, I think it's been limited to only a few places. I see a lot of pleasant, focused, informative, deep threads coexisting at the same time.

 

As for where the low-brow behavior has come into play, my personal (and yes, of course, biased) opinion is that there's generally been a point to it all, and a method to the madness. 

 

Back in the days of the "mod squad," what with their stern, blue font warnings in officialese (not to mentioned red font fiiinnnaaallll warnings), it was indeed often off limits to call people out, especially if that was done in a way that involved any "playground tactics." A certain culture of politeness was, for lack of a better word, enforced.

 

But my observation--after about a decade of all that--is that a certain type of troll and a certain type of sicko thrives in the polite, policed environment. And the Dao Bums, for a long time, was a platform, soapbox, and playground for a good number of those trolls and sickos who figured out the rules, and played by them.

 

Since the mods got sent back to the peanut gallery half a year ago, I've seen a certain anarchic "immune system" kick into action more than once here, and I've seen a couple of people and groups with long histories of very disturbing behavior get their noses rubbed in their shit in a way that was never possible in the past, because calls for politeness quite often ended up trumping calls for accountability. 

 

The anarchic immune system sure does get ugly sometimes, but I study medicine, and I'll tell you, sometimes a bout of explosive diarrhea, vomiting, and delirious feverish ranting is just the ticket for expelling deadly microbes. My current working hypothesis ('cause I'm not sure I'm right about all this) is that we nowadays sometimes see something analogous to all that. 

 

Shit, could this thread be handled better? Could the thread with Drew busking for $20 be handled better? Sure, I guess so. Are some of us going too far sometimes? I guess maybe, maybe probably. But from my standpoint, where I look onto the world with admittedly one-sided vision and far-from-total wisdom, what might look like simple bullying here has an element of protecting the vulnerable from self-appointed teachers who can, will, and too often do suck aspiring practitioners into weird, dangerous worlds that are not what they claim to be. If indeed that's what's happening, and we're all not simply sick puppies fighting for the sake of it, then may it continue. 

 

Bringing this concern back to this thread:

 

The English-speaking "Mopai," it can now be said without doubt (thanks to MegaMind's eventual admission), is in no, way, shape, or form affiliated with the actual, living, extant Mopai in Indonesia from which they take their name and (controversially) some teachings. Furthermore, the so-called "Mopai" of the English-speaking world was not founded by any individual who was ever, in any formal and traditional manner, made a fully-fledged member of the Indonesian Mopai.

 

This is information I, personally, hope remains easily available for aspirants to take into account before they begin practicing whatever it is that's in those PDFs.

 

Was it extracted at cost to the civility of this board and maybe my own personal integrity? On the real, I dunno. I accept my inability to know, and the possibility that I may pay a heavy karmic cost. I was doing my best, and I know it might not have been good enough.

 

All that said, sometimes you gotta speak up, sometimes you gotta act. I do so plenty "in real life," and sometimes I do so here. That might just mean I'm a pompous megalomaniac who's going to spend a long time dealing with the consequences of my actions. I guess I'll learn whether or not that's the case sooner or later. But, as your own foray into this thread shows, Steve, even when one is laying one's eyes upon something wholly "irrelevant," sometimes one stops and decides to get involved, as pointless as I guess that might be. 

 

I don't begrudge you your jumping into the fray to try and set the course of a ship that you seem to think has gone astray.

 

Matterofact, I relate to it. 

 

And welcome it. 

 

Though I don't wholly agree with it. 

 

Good day to ya. 

 

 

Some things I wanted to touch on.

 

Jim and Kosta were John's legitimate students, until John was removed as head of the school, and all westerners were expelled by the Mo Pai elders.

 

Jim was tested by John to his level and verified to pass .

 

Jim recorded John giving him instruction.

 

Jim did progress further than many Indonesian students, and passed a test many of them could not.

 

This is confirmed by video of his exam, and in a letter to Jim from John.

 

We preserve what Jim and Kosta brought back and we haven't changed or altered it.

 

We don't charge money and we don't accept donations.

 

We are a group of freethinkers that wanted objective evidence with scientists and medical doctors present to do their best to rule out fraud occurring.

 

We wanted a practice  that we could experience first hand and verify it was legitimate without accepting things on faith or the testimony of other people.

 

We are not a cult, we are a group of freethinkers that base our beliefs off the best evidence we know of an our own observation.

 

We don't promote any philosophies of belief systems.

 

This is just a practice, do the work, follow instructions and you will experience the same things we all have.

[MegaMind]

1 minute ago, GSmaster said:

 

He was never able to do it himself without John Chang presence, so his level shown on the video is absolutely fake.

 

 

Just about anyone in this discussion has more attainments and bigger results than you do after 20 years of wanking on your level 2

 

That may be, but many Indonesian students could not pass that test.

[Walker]

3 minutes ago, MegaMind said:

Some things I wanted to touch on.

 

Jim and Kosta were John's legitimate students, until John was removed as head of the school, and all westerners were expelled by the Mo Pai elders.

 

That is fine, MegaMind. I believe you.

 

However,

 

"Online student of legitimate student" =/= "Legitimate student" =/= "Formal disciple" =/= "Lineage holder" =/= "Lineage holder empowered by his/her master to teach openly"

 

Also,

 

"Online student of legitimate student" < "Legitimate student" < "Formal disciple" < "Lineage holder" < "Lineage holder empowered by his/her master to teach openly"

 

Anybody who has spent any time in the milieu which John Chang occupies understands this.

 

If you do not, either you are an outsider, and therefore ignorant by default; or else you have reason to know better, and are being willfully ignorant for some reason. Why you choose to persist in ignorance beyond me, but it is your choice.

 

Again, I thank you for making it clear that neither McMillan nor Danaos were formally inducted into the Mopai in Indonesia, and that therefore not you nor any other online so-called "Mopai" enthusiast on the English-speaking internet is, either.

 

It is good to have clarity on this issue.

 

No further questions at this time. 

[Starjumper]

46 minutes ago, MegaMind said:

 

 

 

You really believe this?  Did they go to a random hotel room, strip naked and have doctors with metal detectors and anal probes standing by to verify the truth of it?  NO.  So how can you believe that if it doesn't fit your fairy tale requirements for everything else?  

 

Easily faked, notice the guy over on the right pulling the string?  Notice how Jim is pushing away and yet the cardboard box falls forward?  Notice how useless such things, even if real, are in real world spiritual scenarios?

[MegaMind]

31 minutes ago, Walker said:

 

That is fine, MegaMind. I believe you.

 

However,

 

"Online student of legitimate student" =/= "Legitimate student" =/= "Formal disciple" =/= "Lineage holder" =/= "Lineage holder empowered by his/her master to teach openly"

 

Also,

 

"Online student of legitimate student" < "Legitimate student" < "Formal disciple" < "Lineage holder" < "Lineage holder empowered by his/her master to teach openly"

 

Anybody who has spent any time in the milieu which John Chang occupies understands this.

 

If you do not, either you are an outsider, and therefore ignorant by default; or else you have reason to know better, and are being willfully ignorant for some reason. Why you choose to persist in ignorance beyond me, but it is your choice.

 

Again, I thank you for making it clear that neither McMillan nor Danaos were formally inducted into the Mopai in Indonesia, and that therefore not you nor any other online so-called "Mopai" enthusiast on the English-speaking internet is, either.

 

It is good to have clarity on this issue.

 

No further questions at this time. 

 

"Online student of legitimate student"

 

Many in our group lived close to Jim and trained in person.

 

 

 

 

 

"neither McMillan nor Danaos were formally inducted into the Mopai in Indonesia"

 

Both Jim and Kosta were legimate students of John.

[MegaMind]

28 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

 

Its so obvious that neither Jim or Kostas were formally enrolled into mopai as they never passed the introductory 2 levels.

 

Jim's next step would have been level 3, had the school not been closed to westerners.

[MegaMind]

9 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

You really believe this?  Did they go to a random hotel room, strip naked and have doctors with metal detectors and anal probes standing by to verify the truth of it?  NO.  So how can you believe that if it doesn't fit your fairy tale requirements for everything else?  

 

Easily faked, notice the guy over on the right pulling the string?  Notice how Jim is pushing away and yet the cardboard box falls forward?  Notice how useless such things, even if real, are in real world spiritual scenarios?

 

Falling forward was intentional and was the expected result.

 

According to Jim he went to the close by restroom while John continued to project his yin field, and recreated the effect alone in the restroom.

 

There were no scientists or medical doctors present to rule out fraud, so we do not consider this good evidence, but I presented it because GSmaster asked about it.

Edited January 14, 2020 by MegaMind

[Walker]

Just now, MegaMind said:

"Online student of legitimate student"

 

Many in our group lived close to Jim and trained in person.

 

I see.

 

Allow me to make a modification then. 

 

"Online student of legitimate student" =/= "Face to face student of legitimate student" =/= "Legitimate student" =/= "Formal disciple" =/= "Lineage holder" =/= "Lineage holder empowered by his/her master to teach openly"

 

And,

 

"Online student of legitimate student" < "Face to face student of legitimate student" < "Legitimate student" < "Formal disciple" < "Lineage holder" < "Lineage holder empowered by his/her master to teach openly"

 

Ultimately this doesn't change much.

 

Nobody in the English-speaking, so-called "Mopai" online is a formal disciple or above.

 

Thank you for publicly clarifying the issue.