3bob Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) In the heavens "God" and "gods" (or such beings and forces called by many names) are obviously a sovereign and involved force not to be monkeyed with... but on earth they are seldom involved with us human beings in a sovereign way except during or after catastrophic events of evil or horrific damages, both on the personal and more massive population levels, so one might wonder if they are fully following Tao as all of us human beings are constantly lectured to about following? And why do they allow the Mother soul of the earth and all of the beings that live here to go through so much destructive and demonic hell by them not being very involved via their sovereign position and power that is seemingly responsible to help nip such troubles in the bud in the first place and everything else that the Tao Teh Ching advocates that us human beings help with and are responsible for? Edited September 2, 2017 by 3bob 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted September 2, 2017 Generally when asked such beings say, 'You ungrateful son of the mud. You know how many times we've bailed out your sorry species due to ecological disaster and even more so for hideous morally bankrupt acts of self destruction? More times then you can count. So get your act together. Grow up and stop asking us to do it for you. Earth is eternal, your species is not.' 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lost in Translation Posted September 2, 2017 39 minutes ago, 3bob said: why do they allow the Mother soul of the earth and all of the beings that live here to go through so much destructive and demonic hell by them not being very involved via their sovereign position and power If an all-powerful being made its presence explicitly known, one third of the people would prostrate themselves before it, giving up their free will and begging to be told what to do; one third of the people would flee in fear; and one third would go crazy, suffering and dying in the most horrible ways. Simply put, we're not ready. So the divine powers do what they have always done, acting behind the scenes, working without taking credit, and allowing those among the people who choose to seek them avenues of approach if they are sincere in their efforts. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
roger Posted September 2, 2017 2 hours ago, 3bob said: In the heavens "God" and "gods" (or such beings and forces called by many names) are obviously a sovereign and involved force not to be monkeyed with... but on earth they are seldom involved with us human beings in a sovereign way except during or after catastrophic events of evil or horrific damages, both on the personal and more massive population levels, so one might wonder if they are fully following Tao as all of us human beings are constantly lectured to about following? And why do they allow the Mother soul of the earth and all of the beings that live here to go through so much destructive and demonic hell by them not being very involved via their sovereign position and power that is seemingly responsible to help nip such troubles in the bud in the first place and everything else that the Tao Teh Ching advocates that us human beings help with and are responsible for? I think that God and the spirit masters see 'bad' things differently than we. Imo everything that happens is the highest good. Life is unfolding perfectly. All is as it should be. The divine plan and will is for all good things to happen. All that is desires to fully experience love, joy, and all good things. But without all 'bad' things, there couldn't be all good things. Without ignorance, there wouldn't be learning or growth; without anger, there couldn't be forgiveness; without sickness, there wouldn't be such a thing as healing. So all possibilities exist. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted September 3, 2017 (edited) I think that at its best democracy is used for or as a transitional method for us human beings to get along, but it does not exist in the heavens where a sovereign being and or beings rule... btw. many of us on this forum are democratically minded westerners and such ideas about a sovereign being do not sit very well or are rejected out of hand by many that think such is obsolete non-sense of religious fanatics that we can look down upon via our intellectualized spiritual enlightenment, besides some of us are non-dualistic or whatever masters of the universe in our own right and have no use for a sovereign being. (again an idea that must really grate on some schools of thought who have no use for a sovereign being since they are already hip to a reality without such) Edited September 3, 2017 by 3bob 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Edward M Posted September 3, 2017 It's all about choices, i think. We are here on Earth lo learn about the power of choice, and the consequences of our choices teach us about the power of choice. If god's came down and bailed us out, we would never learn.... 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted September 3, 2017 I'd agree up to a point Edward, but its not exactly being bailed out of everything that I'm trying to get at or hoping for, it is where the line is drawn at what is allowed to transpire against the ways of Tao, by a sovereign force, being or beings....and if spiritual and or Taoist wisdom says nip troubles in the bud (after or needing an 'x' amount of learning) why are certain planetary and in some cases individual troubles not being nipped in the bud through sovereign power being that such is also of its responsibility ? (yet humans are lectured to nip all of the troubles in the bud for such is only their responsibility) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Edward M Posted September 3, 2017 Good points 3bob, well they do say that when things get really bad, an avatar will appear. It's happened before, might well happen again, and soon... sorry i haven't got much insight into this to add anything worthwhile... Cheers 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lost in Translation Posted September 3, 2017 4 hours ago, 3bob said: why are certain planetary and in some cases individual troubles not being nipped in the bud through sovereign power being that such is also of its responsibility ? Imagine having a similar conversation about gravity. Falling is bad, and not falling is good. What you are asking is basically why won't the sovereign being catch me whenever I am about to fall. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted September 6, 2017 (edited) On 9/3/2017 at 7:35 AM, Edward M said: Good points 3bob, well they do say that when things get really bad, an avatar will appear. It's happened before, might well happen again, and soon... sorry i haven't got much insight into this to add anything worthwhile... Cheers well I'd say things are a lot worse in certain ways now than they were in the times of Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, early Taoist sages, and early Shamans or healers of various native cultures, etc... Edited September 6, 2017 by 3bob 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fa Xin Posted September 12, 2017 How do you know they're not involved? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted September 12, 2017 (edited) oh they are involved alright which I did not express very well, I just wonder about the sayings of nipping things in bud before big problems take place (which human beings are supposed to do) and many are doing their best yet why do we have major problems if sovereign forces also nipped problems in the bud? (meaning we all go through apocalypse type problems that were not nipped in bud as the teachings about same says to accomplish) Edited September 12, 2017 by 3bob 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ljazztrumpet Posted September 13, 2017 For whatever reason, in my life I have attracted people with some very powerful mystical gifts. I have gotten to interact with what I would call very evolved souls that have been on the earth plane as what most of us might call 'spiritual masters'. One of the things I have learned from these beings is that one of the very most important things to them is that we become our own masters. That we absolutely know that we can do everything that they can do - and to never put them on any type of pedestal. They want us to have our own complete self-reliance. The most prolific and one of the most powerful healers I'm aware of recommended a series of books for people to read called 'The Life and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East' by Baird Spalding. I think you can read them all for free online in PDF. They are works of didactic fiction and the whole theme behind them is that a group of American scientists go to the Himalayas and meet these 'spiritual masters' who can do all sorts of healing and have all the 'siddhi' powers we all equate with metaphysical teachings. Throughout these books, the whole emphasis is that they are telling the scientists that they are just people like they are and that they can do all the things the 'spiritual masters' are doing. Even those these other more evolved people/spirits/beings don't want to see us suffer, they seem to know that we have to go at our own pace...however many lifetimes that may take. From one of these evolved beings I got to study with (who I really respect because he was able to heal tens of thousands of people while incarnated here on the earth) said that our souls make the quickest progress here on the earth plane..that it takes a lot longer when we are 'off-plane'. I had a couple of what some might call NDE's recently - I am pretty convinced that it was shown to me what would happen if I was to cross over right now at this point in my life. I remember I went to a 'town' (both times it was the same place..this happened a few months apart)..it was a run down place and all the people there were at the same level of consciousness I was..And I remember thinking like, 'Oh man, I'm gonna have to go back to the earth plane again to keep going/raise my consciousness.' It's not like there was someone controlling me and saying I had to go back.. But I knew I would choose to do it because I wanted to make more progress and be in a better place on the other side! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ljazztrumpet Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) On 9/3/2017 at 7:44 AM, 3bob said: I think that at its best democracy is used for or as a transitional method for us human beings to get along, but it does not exist in the heavens where a sovereign being and or beings rule... btw. many of us on this forum are democratically minded westerners and such ideas about a sovereign being do not sit very well or are rejected out of hand by many that think such is obsolete non-sense of religious fanatics that we can look down upon via our intellectualized spiritual enlightenment, besides some of us are non-dualistic or whatever masters of the universe in our own right and have no use for a sovereign being. (again an idea that must really grate on some schools of thought who have no use for a sovereign being since they are already hip to a reality without such) My own personal experiences have convinced me that there are no sovereign being(s) that rule us. I probably used to 'look down' on people with certain religious beliefs at some point in my life. I study spiritual healing and I try to go wherever I hear about 'miraculous' type physical healings take place. That has brought me into some fundamentalistic born-again christian type situations. And I've had wonderful experiences in these places. Falling out in the spirit..spontaneous glossolalia for month (with Tommy Welchel - the last 'voice' of the Asuza St revival which is the only record of multiple eyewitness testimonies of full limbs being spontaneously regenerated) and other types of similar experiences. The best thing for me was meeting some of these people who had so much love and compassion in their hearts. The christians that the healings took place around all shared these similar characteristics. I believe it was because they believed that they were supposed to do what their savior (the Big JC) did..so they tried to copy him..different than those who just prayed to him as a 'savior' to come and help them. These people where the healings and mystical things happened were in a different type of state. They were out of the head and in the heart, to be poetic. Very surrendered. If I could take the 'purple pill' and go back into The Matrix, believing in an external God and Jesus, etc. (although I do believe in the soul of JC because of mystical experiences) I would take it if I knew I could be as loving and kind as some of the people I got to spend time with at those healing services. Anyway, I'm sure what I intellectually think I know as truth now will shift in the next few years..or months..weeks even..days really..oh man..there goes one now Edited September 14, 2017 by ljazztrumpet grammatical 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrei Posted September 13, 2017 On 9/2/2017 at 11:33 AM, 3bob said: And why do they allow the Mother soul of the earth ... Because they don't exist, except in our minds Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lost in Translation Posted September 13, 2017 1 hour ago, ljazztrumpet said: My own personal experiences have convinced me that there are no sovereign being(s) that rule us. I find 'rule' is a trigger word to most people. It was to me, turned me away from deistic religions for many years. It was a shame, but we each walk our own paths in life. It's better now. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted September 14, 2017 On 9/13/2017 at 5:15 PM, Apeiron&Peiron said: Well, I have heard an explanation from a Buddhist school that we are in the dharma ending period. Very few people are capable of being saved in this generation. I get the feeling that's a widespread view in every generation since and before the Buddha. Was it Aristotle who first recorded, kids these days.. no respect. Consults All Knowing Google- wrong it was his teacher “The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.” ― Socrates I didn't know they had internet back then. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted September 15, 2017 (edited) Thanks to everyone for their comments and thoughts on the subject here! Lots to consider. Btw, I believe all karmas in all the "multi-verse" will be resolved and that there are no lost causes or beings anywhere in any world, although there is no free lunch and a very long row to hoe. still that does not negate the fact to me that in the blink of an eye the gravity and bindings of karmas can be overcome with beings realizing freedom in Spirit - being that Grace with Wisdom is a far greater, overwhelming, unbound and unbinding force with an unlimited reach! Edited September 15, 2017 by 3bob 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fa Xin Posted September 16, 2017 On 9/12/2017 at 0:40 AM, 3bob said: oh they are involved alright which I did not express very well, I just wonder about the sayings of nipping things in bud before big problems take place (which human beings are supposed to do) and many are doing their best yet why do we have major problems if sovereign forces also nipped problems in the bud? (meaning we all go through apocalypse type problems that were not nipped in bud as the teachings about same says to accomplish) This would imply that something is not as it should be Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ljazztrumpet Posted September 16, 2017 2 hours ago, Fa Xin said: This would imply that something is not as it should be I've had some mystical type experiences after a lot of meditation where I saw absolutely everything is as it should be. 99.9% of the time I feel like many things need to be changed/healed and are not as they should be. But these mystical experiences were important to me because it confirmed to me that there is something higher/wiser than my thinking mind that, perhaps, one day I will be able to understand. Also, I believe that, even if seeing everything is always as it should be was my default nature, I wouldn't stop trying to change and heal things I wanted to. I wouldn't stop trying to alleviate suffering, because these actions to change things would be just another part of everything being as it should be. And I probably would be more effective in my actions to change things, because they wouldn't be motivated by any feelings of anger or fear. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted September 16, 2017 things as they are if mechanically like bound may be as they should be per a mechanical like sense but not as they COULD be per spiritual freedom.... which is why to me there is so much teaching about transformation and evolution of being. (as from a mechanical like state to the spiritual. One could also say ego is mechanical like per the things that basically drive it compared to the freedom of spirit which is not bound) Thus I believe the saying "things are as they should be" needs context beyond a simple generalization. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lost in Translation Posted September 16, 2017 Paradox is. (insert Yoda voice) Things are exactly as they should be, yet you have freedom to choose. When you choose to change something, look for the "golden time". That is the point when a minimum amount of effort can effect the greatest change. Apply effort too early or too late and all you do is exhaust yourself. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted September 16, 2017 Hello lost in translation, It sounds to me like the first half of your first sentence above nullifies the rest of the concepts that come afterwards if such is given the position and power implied. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fa Xin Posted September 16, 2017 I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. We have freedom to choose but in the end it doesn't really matter either way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fa Xin Posted September 16, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, ljazztrumpet said: I've had some mystical type experiences after a lot of meditation where I saw absolutely everything is as it should be. 99.9% of the time I feel like many things need to be changed/healed and are not as they should be. But these mystical experiences were important to me because it confirmed to me that there is something higher/wiser than my thinking mind that, perhaps, one day I will be able to understand. Also, I believe that, even if seeing everything is always as it should be was my default nature, I wouldn't stop trying to change and heal things I wanted to. I wouldn't stop trying to alleviate suffering, because these actions to change things would be just another part of everything being as it should be. And I probably would be more effective in my actions to change things, because they wouldn't be motivated by any feelings of anger or fear. Very cool. Thanks for sharing. the way to see the world is ok as it is ... is living in total surrender and acceptance. Once you start analyzing you'll start seeing things that need fixing. The deeper I get the less I feel like I know intellectually but the more I know on an intuitive level. Everything I typed could also be an illusion that I've accepted and surrendered to. Lol! I also accept this as a possibility... 😊 Also i will help everyone I can when I can. Accepting things doesn't mean your sitting around watching the world go by. It's whatever happens is meant to happen. It's something I can't explain well but know on a deep level. Edited September 16, 2017 by Fa Xin 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
