Lost in Translation Posted September 16, 2017 8 hours ago, 3bob said: Hello lost in translation, It sounds to me like the first half of your first sentence above nullifies the rest of the concepts that come afterwards if such is given the position and power implied. I agree. I did say it was a paradox... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
roger Posted September 17, 2017 My view is that we have free will, but not choice. Everyone is always choicelessly doing their own will, BECAUSE it's their will. In other words, we can't not do our own will. That will is the universal will of all beings. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 17, 2017 Interesting concept there Roger. I agree that we have free will. Choices: A man cannot do that which his heart will not allow. (Paraphrased quote from someone.) I have no fixed opinion on this. I think it is not valid but I can't state such. In life, we are oftentimes faced with intolerable conditions such that our only option (choice) is to do that which we would not do under normal conditions. (To kill or be killed.) 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mudfoot Posted September 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Marblehead said: A man cannot do that which his heart will not allow. "I do not kill with my gun. He who kills with his guns have forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart." 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mudfoot Posted September 17, 2017 2 hours ago, roger said: My view is that we have free will, but not choice. Everyone is always choicelessly doing their own will, BECAUSE it's their will. In other words, we can't not do our own will. That will is the universal will of all beings. Technically, we are not aware of the reason/motivation (=emotionally based) behind our choices, so my free will is sometimes based on the goals of the non-concious part of me. Still me though. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 17, 2017 28 minutes ago, Mudfoot said: "I do not kill with my gun. He who kills with his guns have forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart." WoW! Killing with one's heart could be more painful than killing with a gun. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mudfoot Posted September 17, 2017 Sounds cool though. Thanks Stephen King! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 17, 2017 8 minutes ago, Mudfoot said: Sounds cool though. Thanks Stephen King! Okay. That gave me a chuckle. Knowing the source I can understand it a little better. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ljazztrumpet Posted September 17, 2017 22 hours ago, 3bob said: things as they are if mechanically like bound may be as they should be per a mechanical like sense but not as they COULD be per spiritual freedom.... which is why to me there is so much teaching about transformation and evolution of being. (as from a mechanical like state to the spiritual. One could also say ego is mechanical like per the things that basically drive it compared to the freedom of spirit which is not bound) Thus I believe the saying "things are as they should be" needs context beyond a simple generalization. I like using the term mechanical because it has a lot less connotations than the word 'spiritual'. In the sense I mean I am talking about developing qualities of love/kindness/compassion from a purely 'mechanical standoint'. Like if we want life to function in a better way, we improve the mechanics of life - just like improving the mechanics of a car to make it run better. Take someone who defines themselves as an ethical humanist. They may have no interest in spirituality, but know that developing qualities of love/kindness/compassion just cause life to function better mechanically - less suffering, and more happiness! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ljazztrumpet Posted September 17, 2017 17 hours ago, Fa Xin said: I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. We have freedom to choose but in the end it doesn't really matter either way. I think we're all products of our conditioning and there is no real free will. We are all absolutely doing the best we can with what we know. Every day..every second..it feels like I'm choosing..When I sit and meditate about it, I see I'm not really choosing. A real mystcial-type person sat me down once and explained how, once we lose all fear, we actually do have free will and can really choose. I understood it at the time but it was so 'above my head' I forgot! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fa Xin Posted September 17, 2017 11 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said: I think we're all products of our conditioning and there is no real free will. We are all absolutely doing the best we can with what we know. Every day..every second..it feels like I'm choosing..When I sit and meditate about it, I see I'm not really choosing. A real mystcial-type person sat me down once and explained how, once we lose all fear, we actually do have free will and can really choose. I understood it at the time but it was so 'above my head' I forgot! Yes I can agree with that. The problem is when you see how many of your actions have been driven by fear, and now you don't have the desire to do much of anything ! 😂 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lost in Translation Posted September 17, 2017 4 hours ago, roger said: My view is that we have free will, but not choice. Would you please explain what you mean here? If we have free will then we always have choice. The cost of the choice may be too high for us to bear so we rule it out as viable, but it's always there. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted September 17, 2017 a comment on will: when or if push comes to shove, "what is against the Tao will soon cease..." yet such an "against" has been going on and repeating since the beginning of the cosmos and all of its beings so it seems there must be more information related to the saying ?? I also get that only through the ultimate test of inner (and to whatever degree outer) apocalypse type troubles will a being be fully tested and proven for the responsibility of enlightenment... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ljazztrumpet Posted September 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Fa Xin said: Yes I can agree with that. The problem is when you see how many of your actions have been driven by fear, and now you don't have the desire to do much of anything ! 😂 Well, I'll still will have the desire to do that which I'm passionate about - just for the joy of it, without any fear motivating it as well, which, I would think, would make my doings much more effective, powerful, and efficient 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted September 17, 2017 What is against Tao will soon cease... this sure seems true in my experience. Nature follows Tao. Nature is flow. The flow of nature, which follows Dao, seems to always be toward settling in balance. Which implies to me... in order for the flow of Nature to be toward balance, Nature persists in a state of perpetual imbalance? In matters of elements balance seems clear... water settles in balance and comes to rest. Yet how so is balance expressed in emotional and human matters? What is and who determines what is balanced? This sovereignty that to me seems an implied causation affecting nature in its perpetual flow toward balance... As Nature seems to me, to indeed be this process of a constant state of flow toward but never achieving balance, does this not further imply that nature is and could not be any other way but imbalanced. from where is sovereignty derived and where does it reside... in dao or in nature? Will Nature ever fully balance? Is this entropy? What an incredible conversation... thank you. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ljazztrumpet Posted September 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, silent thunder said: What is against Tao will soon cease... this sure seems true in my experience. Nature follows Tao. Nature is flow. The flow of nature, which follows Dao, seems to always be toward settling in balance. Which implies to me... in order for the flow of Nature to be toward balance, Nature persists in a state of perpetual imbalance? In matters of elements balance seems clear... water settles in balance and comes to rest. Yet how so is balance expressed in emotional and human matters? What is and who determines what is balanced? This sovereignty that to me seems an implied causation affecting nature in its perpetual flow toward balance... As Nature seems to me, to indeed be this process of a constant state of flow toward but never achieving balance, does this not further imply that nature is and could not be any other way but imbalanced. from where is sovereignty derived and where does it reside... in dao or in nature? Will Nature ever fully balance? Is this entropy? What an incredible conversation... thank you. Yes, some of it is going 'over my head' but thank you anyway! I still want to know more about the Tao/Dao.. Especially the true Tao that cannot be named..can someone explain that to me 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ljazztrumpet Posted September 17, 2017 37 minutes ago, 3bob said: I also get that only through the ultimate test of inner (and to whatever degree outer) apocalypse type troubles will a being be fully tested and proven for the responsibility of enlightenment... What is the apocalypse anyway? Does it mean the whole world and life will be destroyed? A smart friend of mine speculated that the whole thing would just 'start up again' somewhere else anyway.. So there's no escaping what we've set out to learn..at least that's her take.. I hope it's not true..at least at this point in my development! I just don't want to suffer..at least give me a vacation! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted September 17, 2017 (edited) well ljazztrumpet I'd say fear and its related doubt are a big part of a personal inner (and to whatever degree outer) "apocalypse" type of test - so to speak. (adding that if the inner tests are passed the so called outer will follow suit although an apparent outer may seem to come first) Btw, there is lots of talk at this site about this and that method or school to attain enlightenment and what it is, yet we don't hear that much about the price payable per an "apocalypse" type of test and the responsibility aspects, Edited September 17, 2017 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted September 17, 2017 2 hours ago, silent thunder said: What is against Tao will soon cease... this sure seems true in my experience. Nature follows Tao. Nature is flow. The flow of nature, which follows Dao, seems to always be toward settling in balance. Which implies to me... in order for the flow of Nature to be toward balance, Nature persists in a state of perpetual imbalance? In matters of elements balance seems clear... water settles in balance and comes to rest. Yet how so is balance expressed in emotional and human matters? What is and who determines what is balanced? This sovereignty that to me seems an implied causation affecting nature in its perpetual flow toward balance... As Nature seems to me, to indeed be this process of a constant state of flow toward but never achieving balance, does this not further imply that nature is and could not be any other way but imbalanced. from where is sovereignty derived and where does it reside... in dao or in nature? Will Nature ever fully balance? Is this entropy? What an incredible conversation... thank you. Hey silent thunder, hopefully the question is half the answer as I've heard somewhere.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ljazztrumpet Posted September 17, 2017 1 hour ago, 3bob said: Btw, there is lots of talk at this site about this and that method or school to attain enlightenment and what it is, yet we don't hear that much about the price payable per an "apocalypse" type of test and the responsibility aspects, Hope this goes thru - am on my BlackBerry. What do you define as an 'apocalypse' type of test? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrpasserby Posted September 17, 2017 On 9/2/2017 at 0:11 PM, thelerner said: Generally when asked such beings say, 'You ungrateful son of the mud. You know how many times we've bailed out your sorry species due to ecological disaster and even more so for hideous morally bankrupt acts of self destruction? More times then you can count. So get your act together. Grow up and stop asking us to do it for you. Earth is eternal, your species is not.' Respect! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
roger Posted September 19, 2017 On September 17, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Lost in Translation said: Would you please explain what you mean here? If we have free will then we always have choice. The cost of the choice may be too high for us to bear so we rule it out as viable, but it's always there. Choice implies that there's more than one option, but we always do what we're supposed to do, what we have to do. The Hindu scriptures say, 'All is as it should be.' Everything is happening perfectly. It's all the highest good. Will precedes choice. Our will determines our choices, but choice does not determine our will. Our divine nature determines our will, which is always loving, therefore every choice is loving. It's just that there's an appearance, an illusion, of attack and lack of love. Meher Baba said that we are 'God being us'. That's similar to Seth's (channeled by Jane Roberts) teaching that 'There's a deeper part of you living through you.' Our divine nature is really living our lives AS us. We're just not fully conscious of it. Joe Vitale, in Zero Limits, says that our conscious mind isn't the part of us that makes choices, it just carries them out. We're really choicelessly living our lives, doing only the universal will, because it's our own will. It can seem absurd that God actually wants things that seem so 'bad' to happen. But the divine plan is for All That Is to FULLY experience life and all good things, so all possibilities exist. There's a great glory in being human and suffering profoundly, like a soldier fighting for his country. It's done in the name of love for the sakes of all. Also, suffering is temporary, and the afterlife is pure happiness. In the meantime, we have to be strong and bear our crosses. These are my opinions and I could be mistaken, but I do have great faith in this stuff. Most of my understanding comes from 'channeled' material. I didn't come up with all this stuff on my own. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lost in Translation Posted September 19, 2017 1 hour ago, roger said: Will precedes choice. Our will determines our choices, but choice does not determine our will. Our divine nature determines our will, which is always loving, therefore every choice is loving. Makes sense. 1 hour ago, roger said: Our divine nature is really living our lives AS us. We're just not fully conscious of it. Got it. Also makes sense. 1 hour ago, roger said: We're really choicelessly living our lives, doing only the universal will, because it's our own will. This is where you lose me. It seems to me that we're either doing universal will, our our own will. I can see where there are layers of will, and many times universal will may bleed through as intuition and affect us in that manner, but in the end we either have will and can choose or we don't have will and cannot choose. Perhaps I'm just missing something. I'll reread this tomorrow after some rest and see if I can follow it then. Thanks! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lost in Translation Posted September 19, 2017 11 hours ago, roger said: Our divine nature is really living our lives AS us. We're just not fully conscious of it. Joe Vitale, in Zero Limits, says that our conscious mind isn't the part of us that makes choices, it just carries them out. We're really choicelessly living our lives, doing only the universal will, because it's our own will. "our conscious mind isn't the part of us that makes choices, it just carries them out" Profound. To be free and able to choose while simultaneously not being free and not being able to choose. I need a better definition of self. "I" and "me" don't seem to cut it anymore... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 19, 2017 Marblehead is already taken Best wishes toward finding one that is fitting for you. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
