dawei Posted September 3, 2017 Legge 25 There was something undefined and complete, coming into existence before Heaven and Earth. How still it was and formless, standing alone, and undergoing no change, reaching everywhere and in no danger (of being exhausted)! It may be regarded as the Mother of all things. I do not know its name, and I give it the designation of the Tao (the Way or Course). Making an effort (further) to give it a name I call it The Great. Great, it passes on (in constant flow). Passing on, it becomes remote. Having become remote, it returns. Therefore the Tao is great; Heaven is great; Earth is great; and the (sage) king is also great. In the universe there are four that are great, and the (sage) king is one of them. Man takes his law from the Earth; the Earth takes its law from Heaven; Heaven takes its law from the Tao. The law of the Tao is its being what it is. Lau 25 There is a thing confusedly formed, Born before heaven and earth. Silent and void It stands alone and does not change, Goes round and does not weary. It is capable of being the mother of the world. I know not its name So I style it 'the way'. I give it the makeshift name of 'the great'. Being great, it is further described as receding, Receding, it is described as far away, Being far away, it is described as turning back. Hence the way is great; Heaven is great; Earth is great; The king is also great. Within the realm there are four things that are great, And the king counts as one. Man models himself on earth, Earth on heaven, Heaven on the way, And the way on that which is naturally so. Feng/English 25 Something mysteriously formed, Born before heaven and Earth. In the silence and the void, Standing alone and unchanging, Ever present and in motion. Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things. I do not know its name Call it Tao. For lack of a better word, I call it great. Being great, it flows I flows far away. Having gone far, it returns. Therefore, "Tao is great; Heaven is great; Earth is great; The king is also great." These are the four great powers of the universe, And the king is one of them. Man follows Earth. Earth follows heaven. Heaven follows the Tao. Tao follows what is natural. Jonathan Star 25 Something formless, complete in itself There before Heaven and Earth Tranquil, vast, standing alone, unchanging It provide for all things yet cannot be exhausted It is the mother of the universe I do not know its name so I call it ?Tao? Forced to name it further I call it ?The greatness of all things? ?The end of all endings? I call it ?That which is beyond the beyond? ?That to which all things return? From Tao comes all greatness ? I makes Heaven great It makes Earth great It makes man great Mankind depends on the laws of the Earth Earth depends on the laws of Heaven Heaven depends on the laws of Tao But Tao depends on itself alone Supremely free, self-so, it rests in its own nature Flowing Hands 25 Something mysteriously formed, born before Heaven and Earth. In silence and from within the void. Alone and constant, ever present and flowing. It is the Mother of the Ten Thousand Things. I do not know its name, so I call it Dao. For lack of a better word I call it great. Being great it flows. It nourishes the Ten Thousand Things far and away. From whence it came I do not know. Therefore the Dao is great. Heaven is great. Earth is great. The Ten Thousand Things are great. These are the four great powers of the Universe, And one of them is the Ten Thousand Things. Man follows the Earth. Earth follows Heaven. Heaven follows the Dao. Dao is what is natural. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 3, 2017 So here we are, suggesting that Dao is "some thing" when, IMO, it is "One" that is being spoken of. "One", Singularity. Singularity being the first manifestation. But then, the chapter speaks of Dao as well, doesn't it? Dao gave birth to One. Was it Dao manifesting itself? I think that the concept of Tzujan speaks to this. Only Dao is not dependent on something else. (It would be so easy for anyone to replace the word "Dao" with the word "God" if they cared to do so.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted September 4, 2017 Some additional thoughts on chapter 25... Behind even the basis of heaven and earth, is the mother of all things. It is not simply the void, but more like the motion of the void. There is no need to try to name or conceptualize it, as it is beyond mind. Hence, some label it Dao, and think it great. Ever in motion, it flows like a river, creating all that we call the universe. But such a flowing is also like a loop (of transmission and reception), and so always returns, so can be found inside ourselves. There are four major levels of realization (and some would call them great). The first is king or Sage. The second is Sage who is one with earth. The third is realiazation of Heaven (also known as immortal) The fourth is the realization of the Dao (also known as realized immortal). But all of this is really just flowing the natural path of the mother of all things. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 4, 2017 11 minutes ago, Jeff said: Some additional thoughts on chapter 25... It is not simply the void, but more like the motion of the void. This is important, IMO. Difficult for the mind to grasp. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonesboy Posted September 4, 2017 Could Jeff or anyone provide more insight into the 4 levels of realization described in the chapter? 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 4, 2017 I'll let Jeff do that. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted September 4, 2017 3 hours ago, Jonesboy said: Could Jeff or anyone provide more insight into the 4 levels of realization described in the chapter? The insight into the steps/stages of these levels are better described when we get to chapter 28. But, you can sort of break them into these groupings... King/Sage - one has filled the three dantiens and the mind has quieted. In the TTC 28, this is called "knowing the strength of a man". One is like a king, as you have moved beyond fears and issues that can drag you down. Earth - This is also called being the "stream of the universe" in chapter 28. This stage feels sort of like you cease and the universe flows through you. Like you (local) mind shutdown and can't handle/comprehend these new and higher flows. Heaven - This is also known as the child (or golden child). In this stage, one is starting to increasing be one with all, but it is more like beings are felt inside of you (or your heart). Dwai touched on this point well in his recent ppf thread post. Dao - This is also called "valley of the universe" in chapter 28. Beyond the conceptualization of the mind, at a perceptional level, it is sort of like you are the universe, but also know there really is no such thing as the universe. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted September 5, 2017 13 hours ago, Jeff said: Some additional thoughts on chapter 25... Behind even the basis of heaven and earth, is the mother of all things. It is not simply the void, but more like the motion of the void. There is no need to try to name or conceptualize it, as it is beyond mind. Hence, some label it Dao, and think it great. Ever in motion, it flows like a river, creating all that we call the universe. But such a flowing is also like a loop (of transmission and reception), and so always returns, so can be found inside ourselves. There are four major levels of realization (and some would call them great). The first is king or Sage. The second is Sage who is one with earth. The third is realiazation of Heaven (also known as immortal) The fourth is the realization of the Dao (also known as realized immortal). But all of this is really just flowing the natural path of the mother of all things. Being obsessive on daoist cosmology ... I actually like that 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flowing hands Posted September 24, 2017 On 03/09/2017 at 1:46 AM, dawei said: Legge 25 There was something undefined and complete, coming into existence before Heaven and Earth. How still it was and formless, standing alone, and undergoing no change, reaching everywhere and in no danger (of being exhausted)! It may be regarded as the Mother of all things. I do not know its name, and I give it the designation of the Tao (the Way or Course). Making an effort (further) to give it a name I call it The Great. Great, it passes on (in constant flow). Passing on, it becomes remote. Having become remote, it returns. Therefore the Tao is great; Heaven is great; Earth is great; and the (sage) king is also great. In the universe there are four that are great, and the (sage) king is one of them. Man takes his law from the Earth; the Earth takes its law from Heaven; Heaven takes its law from the Tao. The law of the Tao is its being what it is. Lau 25 There is a thing confusedly formed, Born before heaven and earth. Silent and void It stands alone and does not change, Goes round and does not weary. It is capable of being the mother of the world. I know not its name So I style it 'the way'. I give it the makeshift name of 'the great'. Being great, it is further described as receding, Receding, it is described as far away, Being far away, it is described as turning back. Hence the way is great; Heaven is great; Earth is great; The king is also great. Within the realm there are four things that are great, And the king counts as one. Man models himself on earth, Earth on heaven, Heaven on the way, And the way on that which is naturally so. Feng/English 25 Something mysteriously formed, Born before heaven and Earth. In the silence and the void, Standing alone and unchanging, Ever present and in motion. Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things. I do not know its name Call it Tao. For lack of a better word, I call it great. Being great, it flows I flows far away. Having gone far, it returns. Therefore, "Tao is great; Heaven is great; Earth is great; The king is also great." These are the four great powers of the universe, And the king is one of them. Man follows Earth. Earth follows heaven. Heaven follows the Tao. Tao follows what is natural. Jonathan Star 25 Something formless, complete in itself There before Heaven and Earth Tranquil, vast, standing alone, unchanging It provide for all things yet cannot be exhausted It is the mother of the universe I do not know its name so I call it ?Tao? Forced to name it further I call it ?The greatness of all things? ?The end of all endings? I call it ?That which is beyond the beyond? ?That to which all things return? From Tao comes all greatness ? I makes Heaven great It makes Earth great It makes man great Mankind depends on the laws of the Earth Earth depends on the laws of Heaven Heaven depends on the laws of Tao But Tao depends on itself alone Supremely free, self-so, it rests in its own nature Flowing Hands 25 Something mysteriously formed, born before Heaven and Earth. In silence and from within the void. Alone and constant, ever present and flowing. It is the Mother of the Ten Thousand Things. I do not know its name, so I call it Dao. For lack of a better word I call it great. Being great it flows. It nourishes the Ten Thousand Things far and away. From whence it came I do not know. Therefore the Dao is great. Heaven is great. Earth is great. The Ten Thousand Things are great. These are the four great powers of the Universe, And one of them is the Ten Thousand Things. Man follows the Earth. Earth follows Heaven. Heaven follows the Dao. Dao is what is natural. this is one of the important chapters within the verses. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rara Posted May 13, 2020 By man following earth, does he also follow Tao, due to the sequence? And if so, is "man" interchangeable with "king"? I'm assuming so...as not all men are following Tao... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted May 13, 2020 4 hours ago, Rara said: By man following earth, does he also follow Tao, due to the sequence? And if so, is "man" interchangeable with "king"? I'm assuming so...as not all men are following Tao... I played with the last lines for a long time, once before, and I like 'model' (Lau uses it). In this way, the 'sequence' would suggest as you say: by being modeled on earth we are modeled on Dao. Man vs King. This has a history of debate but seems it is not required to be so distinct. Chan in his translation notes that there are versions with 'man' instead and writes in his notes: "the king here is representative of men. Moreover, in chapter 16 and 39, Heaven, Earth and Man are spoken of together. Wagner's translation of Wang Bi's notes are explained as his (WB) quoting a text that seems to appear to say man is the most exalted being and the king is highest of men... and thus WB supports the use of Man. But Wagner says the entire section is trying to show that WB "intends to show why the king is not great but only 'also great' (see The King is also Great--Lau). He is also great because Heaven and Earth have given the highest endowment to humans and he is their lord. He is not intrinsically great but also great by this endownment." 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diacarwyn Posted May 31, 2020 (edited) Wouldn’t the Heavens be disappointed in ourselves? In our selfishness towards nature and our lack of stewardship? We’ve always done so much harm. Wouldn’t the Heavens regret their choice of who would be King and the humans who are responsible to be kind and gentle to all things? Is that it, only a few are to stumble across what the Heavens have seeded and the framers are to share the harvest? Edited May 31, 2020 by Diacarwyn Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rara Posted June 2, 2020 On 31/05/2020 at 10:52 AM, Diacarwyn said: Wouldn’t the Heavens be disappointed in ourselves? In our selfishness towards nature and our lack of stewardship? We’ve always done so much harm. Wouldn’t the Heavens regret their choice of who would be King and the humans who are responsible to be kind and gentle to all things? Is that it, only a few are to stumble across what the Heavens have seeded and the framers are to share the harvest? I don't think the Heavens have this sort of opinion as I don't feel it is personified in the DDJ anyway. In the rankings, it appears 2nd to Dao, and if this is so, then it is the highest of what can be named. Imitating Dao and being almost an image of it (paradoxical, I know) our connection to Heaven as humans is what's important. From this chapter, I don't believe the King is appointed by heaven. I would say your latter question is closer to the meaning.... Say, you, cultivate with commitment, you become one with Heaven. You become King in this context. Maybe this is Zhuangzi's "Perfect Man", or similar. A Zhuangzi quote also comes to mind: "If heaven and earth fall to ruin, the sage suffers no loss". Alas, man will be destructive and man doesn't elect true Kings into power. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sketch Posted October 8, 2020 Verse Twenty Five Things are a mixture. Start with the sky and earth and something will grow. Lonely! Oh so Alone! Standing erect, unchanging. A guardian. Like the sky’s own mother. I don’t know the name - Let’s call it the Trail, or by calling it anything, let’s call it a Trail Marker. Because it is strong, we’ll call it big. It’s big, so we can call it “Something that will pass away” It will pass away, so we can call it “ Far away” If it is far away, we can call it “accounted for”. Therefore the Trail Marker marks something large. Bigger than any one viewpoint could take in. The sky is big. Bigger than any one viewpoint could take in. Earth is big . Bigger than any one viewpoint could take in. The government is also big - Bigger than any one viewpoint could take in. There are at least four great domains, four categories of things that are bigger than any one viewpoint could take in and politics is certainly one of them. People’s laws represent the laws of earth; The laws of earth represent the laws of the universe; The universal laws of nature are what the Trail Marker is meant to indicate. Because what we’re calling “The Trail” Is just what’s there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
