En*light*enment

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Kinda. I had a couple transliterated copies with a Chinese dictionary for it plus many, many translations including the earliest found copy that was found in a tomb in the 1990's. So I cant read Chinese but I went through it with a Chinese dictionary. Not the ancient Chinese written ones but the modern Tao Teh Ching, mind you. I did the same thing with Hebrew and the Torah and Greek and the New Testament.

Hello,

 

Your efforts to reach back to the original texts are laudable, here is an online resource that might really help you and the other bums with any research like this:

 

http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/index.html

 

This site has the Texts of almost all of the Classical texts, Daoist, Confucian, Mohist, etc. In some cases, the most popular texts, the webmaster, Donald Sturgeon, has a good translation which is helpful, but for all of the texts he has an instant dictionary allowing you to see all of the characters in any section and their meanings, with references. Talk about conveniences of the modern age.

 

I also I saw your post replying to the person who saw nothing but superstition in a cathedral, your post showed deep insight. When I finish up my promised postings on the demon thread maybe I will wonder over here.

 

Best wishes to all.

[Ya Mu]

On Power and En-LIGHT-enment.

 

There are several posts on this thread about Power. If I interpret correctly, some feel it is not good/necessary to pursue for en-LIGHT-enment and some feel that it is the essence of the driving force for en-LIGHT-enment.

 

My view comes from having pursued Power only to realize that Power without Knowledge is like having a sledge hammer without the ability to swing it properly and finding that it often falls on your foot. So, Power for Power's sake misses the boat for helping one to reach Higher Levels. But, with diligent practice, we eventually can balance out Power with Knowledge. This balance usually requires many years to arrive to, and we diligently pursue it only to discover, to our amazing chagrin, that Power and Knowledge mean nothing without Wisdom. So, we pursue Wisdom. But Wisdom is an elusive and slippery thing and is much harder to grasp than Power and Knowledge. But the Tao being what it is does provide paths if we look hard enough. One such path is to use the Power and Knowledge to help others and try to be impeccable in this pursuit. We then find that we only thought we knew Power, for when Power is utilized for Higher Level pursuits, we find that the natural limitations we ran into when utilizing Power for Power's sake are lifted. But these limitations are only lifted as long as we are impeccable in the pursuit of Wisdom and utilizing the Power to help I & I & I in evolution of the Tao (What, did you think the Tao was STATIC and not DYNAMIC?).

It was mentioned in this thread that some, upon en-LIGHT-enment, choose to withdraw their power from the world. Of course this is a choice, as is the choice of using this Power to help humanity. But, my view still is that en-LIGHT-enment is only the first step. It awakens one to who they really are and enables them to pursue Higher Levels; there are always Higher Levels.

[freeform]

Great debate!

 

I joined a little late.

 

let's play with it like this - enlightenment, to me, means becoming light.

 

(none of these insights are 'true' - they're like dance moves - they're for fun)

 

What's light like?

 

Firstly - it reveals what's there! Revealing is its primary action.

 

Secondly - light is fast! anything that is slower than light cannot be light!

 

When we first start awakening we notice all the blockages - everything that is slower than light is revealed.

 

You cannot accumulate or store light - because that would mean slowing it down/stopping it. Whatever you're collecting, storing, building is not light.

 

You can become a brighter filament or source of light, but the temptation to grab it, hoard it, collect it means you slow down and the flow of light stops.

 

you have to get out of the way of the light for it to shine. Any blockages you have get a shadow projected on the outside...

[Stigweard]

Great debate!

 

I joined a little late.

 

let's play with it like this - enlightenment, to me, means becoming light.

 

(none of these insights are 'true' - they're like dance moves - they're for fun)

 

What's light like?

 

Firstly - it reveals what's there! Revealing is its primary action.

 

Secondly - light is fast! anything that is slower than light cannot be light!

 

When we first start awakening we notice all the blockages - everything that is slower than light is revealed.

 

You cannot accumulate or store light - because that would mean slowing it down/stopping it. Whatever you're collecting, storing, building is not light.

 

You can become a brighter filament or source of light, but the temptation to grab it, hoard it, collect it means you slow down and the flow of light stops.

 

you have to get out of the way of the light for it to shine. Any blockages you have get a shadow projected on the outside...

 

Nicely said

[Riyue]

Kinda. I had a couple transliterated copies with a Chinese dictionary for it plus many, many translations including the earliest found copy that was found in a tomb in the 1990's. So I cant read Chinese but I went through it with a Chinese dictionary. Not the ancient Chinese written ones but the modern Tao Teh Ching, mind you. I did the same thing with Hebrew and the Torah and Greek and the New Testament.

 

thank you for reply...

personally i like laozi's definition of ming2 in daodejing 16:

 

萬物并作 吾以觀復

 

夫物芸芸 各復歸其根

 

歸根曰靜 靜曰復命

 

復命曰常 知常曰明

[rookie]

I never understood those that shy away from power and think its a bad thing. Sorta like the people why say money is a bad thing too. That always makes me wonder because they are usually poor and powerless. Do people say things like that to make themselves feel better? Whats wrong with power? The Tao Teh Ching is the ultimate book on how to become god-like in power.... so whats wrong with power?

 

DarinHamel

 

It is the desire for power that will hold you back.

What have you found in your daoist studies about attachment?

This is an honest question because I only read translations, and no that many of them either.

What I have read suggests being in a desireless state, not prefering one thing over another, being in balance and harmony with what is (the dao) is "the way".

 

I am not without money or power by the way, so I not fit your stereotype.

 

Without attachment, things go pretty well it seems to me.

I percieve a need. I use energy or money to fulfill it. Great. No biggie. No attachment. If I don't have enough, then I could dream up a way, a plan, to achieve it. Great. No problem. If it is beyond anything I can dream up, then it is accepted as it is, possibly studied with other plans forthcoming.....

 

This is the natural way, yes?

[Taiji Bum]

DarinHamel

 

It is the desire for power that will hold you back.

What have you found in your daoist studies about attachment?

This is an honest question because I only read translations, and no that many of them either.

What I have read suggests being in a desireless state, not prefering one thing over another, being in balance and harmony with what is (the dao) is "the way".

 

I am not without money or power by the way, so I not fit your stereotype.

 

Without attachment, things go pretty well it seems to me.

I percieve a need. I use energy or money to fulfill it. Great. No biggie. No attachment. If I don't have enough, then I could dream up a way, a plan, to achieve it. Great. No problem. If it is beyond anything I can dream up, then it is accepted as it is, possibly studied with other plans forthcoming.....

 

This is the natural way, yes?

I agree that non-attachment is the key but what exactly will the desire for power hold me back from? I want power and I see it as a natural desire like wanting a beautiful woman. Its a natural thing that can of course be abused.

 

Lower three chakra stuff can be difficult. Money, sex and power trip a lot of people up. I am glad I held off on all three until after 40 years of age. I think that now I can seek all three without too much trouble.

 

First Chakra: Stage 1 Money, Stage 2 providing security for yourself and for others Stage 3 Kundalini Awakening

Second Chakra: Stage 1 Sex, Stage 2 loving yourself and others Stage 3 Union with Tao/God

Third Chakra: Stage 1 Power, Stage 2 control over yourself and your environment, Stage 3 Ascension

 

Just free thinking....

[Ya Mu]

...

What's light like?

 

Firstly - it reveals what's there! Revealing is its primary action.

 

Secondly - light is fast! anything that is slower than light cannot be light!

 

When we first start awakening we notice all the blockages - everything that is slower than light is revealed.

 

You cannot accumulate or store light - because that would mean slowing it down/stopping it. Whatever you're collecting, storing, building is not light.

 

You can become a brighter filament or source of light, but the temptation to grab it, hoard it, collect it means you slow down and the flow of light stops.

 

you have to get out of the way of the light for it to shine. Any blockages you have get a shadow projected on the outside...

 

Really Good!

[Ya Mu]

 

...Lower three chakra stuff can be difficult. Money, sex and power trip a lot of people up. I am glad I held off on all three until after 40 years of age. I think that now I can seek all three without too much trouble....

 

 

Wise. If more folks would follow your example there would be a lot less chaos in the world.

 

I generally (of course there are exceptions) do not allow folks under 30 at my workshops. And usually I get more folks over 40 than younger. It is difficult (not impossible) seeking true spirituality when younger. To those that haver found it at a younger age I congratulate you.

[Lightbringer]

I agree that non-attachment is the key but what exactly will the desire for power hold me back from? I want power and I see it as a natural desire like wanting a beautiful woman. Its a natural thing that can of course be abused.

 

Well then that's TWO desires that will hold you back . I like both money and beautiful women, don't get me wrong, but wanting while not needing is different than the personal desires you describe. To want something is to feel unbalanced without it and wishing to correct the imbalance. Naturally, what you seek isn't money or women at all, but God, the Tao, whatever you choose to call it. Currently, you are in the state of accepting your physical body, and this is exactly how to go about achieving the balance you seek. The danger is if you get stuck in the mindset that acceptance is all there is, and that there is no karma to deal with. The ego likes to rationalize that it has all it needs and therefore should not change.

 

Rookie's last post illustrates the proper attitude towards money and it can be applied to women as well. Just to keep in mind for the future as this is something that comes after full acceptance of one's body.

 

First Chakra: Stage 1 Money, Stage 2 providing security for yourself and for others Stage 3 Kundalini Awakening

Second Chakra: Stage 1 Sex, Stage 2 loving yourself and others Stage 3 Union with Tao/God

Third Chakra: Stage 1 Power, Stage 2 control over yourself and your environment, Stage 3 Ascension

 

A few notes in no particular order: the first chakra is sex and the second is money. The stages aren't a terribly good way of breaking down karma relating to each chakra though, there is only the issues that you need to resolve and the ones you don't. When there is nothing left to resolve, the chakra works properly and there are no desires because the chakra is balanced. Kundalini awakening is only when all chakras are balanced and the full awakening is the cause of ascension. Increased energy flow along this meridian is common as the body loses obstructions to energy, but Kundalini awakening is a separate occurrence which is far greater and more sudden (it would need to be to suddenly change the atoms of your body to energy!). Union with Tao/God is something that is always present, but it is only when balancing the 4th chakra that you begin to FEEL God as Unconditional Love and compassion, and only when balancing the 6th and 7th chakras do you being to perceive and know God. Finally, control over yourself is all you can hope to achieve. Your environment will do what it wants, just accept what it has to offer and work with it.

[freeform]

This thread's way cool - great idea, Stig! Lots of interesting opinions from everyone.

 

To play with 'light' a bit more (and this will highlight my own bias ofcourse) -

 

so... using the idea of becoming like light to play with the idea of power:

 

Power is essentially separation - I want the wheat but not the chaff... I want more good than bad... when you set up a goal, you exclude everything but the object of the goal - so when your goal is money, then you focus your attention on money to the exclusion of everything else - ofcourse in reality people tend to have many goals - but I'm sure we all agree that the smaller and more precise the focus, the more likely you are to achieve your goal - so an olympic athlete puts his goal of getting gold above anything else - if he puts money or family or fun above that, he's less likely to get it, right?

 

So relating this back to light - light falls on everything - it doesn't have preference on whether it falls on a gold medal, or the athlete's friends and family, or the fly buzzing around or the space in between all of that. Light doesn't make goals! Power fans might say - oh but you can focus the light towards a certain goal... well if enlightenment is becoming light then whatever you're using to focus the light with cannot be light. Light cannot focus itself. light only reveals - but it reveals everything - never something in particular.

 

You cannot be light and make goals.

 

That doesn't mean that making goals is bad or an unworthy thing to do.

 

if you want enlightenment then goals and power wont get you there... in fact wanting enlightenment wont get you there - because you're wanting something in particular - rather than everything!

[rookie]

This thread's way cool - great idea, Stig! Lots of interesting opinions from everyone.

 

To play with 'light' a bit more (and this will highlight my own bias ofcourse) -

 

so... using the idea of becoming like light to play with the idea of power:

 

Power is essentially separation - I want the wheat but not the chaff... I want more good than bad... when you set up a goal, you exclude everything but the object of the goal - so when your goal is money, then you focus your attention on money to the exclusion of everything else - ofcourse in reality people tend to have many goals - but I'm sure we all agree that the smaller and more precise the focus, the more likely you are to achieve your goal - so an olympic athlete puts his goal of getting gold above anything else - if he puts money or family or fun above that, he's less likely to get it, right?

 

So relating this back to light - light falls on everything - it doesn't have preference on whether it falls on a gold medal, or the athlete's friends and family, or the fly buzzing around or the space in between all of that. Light doesn't make goals! Power fans might say - oh but you can focus the light towards a certain goal... well if enlightenment is becoming light then whatever you're using to focus the light with cannot be light. Light cannot focus itself. light only reveals - but it reveals everything - never something in particular.

 

You cannot be light and make goals.

 

That doesn't mean that making goals is bad or an unworthy thing to do.

 

if you want enlightenment then goals and power wont get you there... in fact wanting enlightenment wont get you there - because you're wanting something in particular - rather than everything!

 

right on

 

when I think of power, I can convince myself that the right use of power is power over myself. This is necessary to a dergee, but there is a way of acting and being that is effortles and doesn't require any power.

 

when I am not in that state, what is required to return to it? not power, but the opposite, letting go

letting go of whatever I have become fixated on, judged, resisted. These are blocks within myself, blockages of energy so that I feel them in my body (reflecting light, casting shadows) pulling me from the free flow.

 

learning happens

 

if I am to flow I cannot attach

 

many habits will want to attach

get stuck

notice -sooner or later-

let go-eventually

 

flow

 

repeat

 

a couple of passages from st paul...

 

i live, yet not i, but christ lives in me

 

thy grace is my sufficiency in all things

 

 

so, to me, this is letting it happen

i do not feel any exercise of power

these highest states are not power states

 

maybe i will be lucky and be able to do it all the time

[ronp]

[exorcist_1699]

Talking about power seems nothing wrong.Here, of course , we refer to the power of healing disease, aging and agong in life , not political power or any power over people .

 

One of the most important concepts of Taoism, which is also the line drawn betwen Taoism and Buddhism ,is that in Taoism we solve both physical and spitiritual issues , while Buddhism sees the body as an illusion . That is both Mind (性)and Life (命)issues are solved together ,although not necessarily in one stroke , in our cultivation .

 

A "master" who gets a big belly and a pair glasses stuck on his nose ,if based on Taoist criteria , definietely can't be called a master ; but in other schools, they do not mind . From the Taost point of view , if qi is well polished , then it is not possible that fat accumulated around his body and his eyesight deteroriated .Besides,any "master" who can't get rid of the disease himself , is unilikely to be a master .

 

In Taoist cultivation , achieving certain degree of Enlightenment (Shen ) also means your qi upgraded , your power of healing aging and diseases largely enhanced. On the other hand , if you cultivate qi well ,and it becomes more delicate, then it means your marching a step closer to attaining certain state of Enlightenment . They are just two faces of the same coin . This is also the main difference between Taoist and Buddhist cultivation .

 

I am not eager to say which is better or higher , nor am I eager to make any sectarian evaluation . However , clarifying it seems adavnatageous to some people , I hope .

Edited January 18, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Ya Mu]

 

...Besides,any "master" who can't get rid of the disease himself , is unilikely to be a master .

 

 

 

What makes you think that? How many "masters" do you know? If you do know any, do you think they will live physically forever? I assure you they, too die a physical death.

How is it possible they die? Because they have dis-ease of the body. Everyone dies of something.

 

"Masters" also realize the body is something to be rented for an extremely short period of time and use their energy to help others. If they do not then I would say they are not a "master". If anyone is totally concerned with the body only then there is no way they are a "master".

[Taiji Bum]

I think its obvious that everyones definition of a master is different especially if you ask someone trying to sell themselves as a master or the new seeker trying to find one. Both I think have a very skewed view of one. Finding a tai chi master should be easy... punch the guy. Easy test. All the energy masters stuff can be BS'ed. Too bad there isnt an agency like master plumbers and carpenters have. I've met 20 year olds who have tripped out on LSD and think they they are masters of Tao and fully enlightened.

[Ya Mu]

... Finding a tai chi master should be easy... punch the guy. Easy test. All the energy masters stuff can be BS'ed. Too bad there isnt an agency like master plumbers and carpenters have. ...

 

Agreed on the tai chi. But apparently there are many folks that call themselves tai chi teachers that have no idea that each of the movements is a martial application.

 

Disagree to a point on the energy "masters" stuff can be BS'd.

Sure a lot of people make claims, but it boils down to either they can manipulate qi or not. Put one next to someone with a sprained ankle that is swollen to 3 times normal size and see if they can reduce the swelling and reduce the pain. If they can't, then they are blowing hot air. Qi can be felt and no amount of arm waving, what someone said, what someone claims, etc can change that.

 

A start on a certifying agency has begun in the USA. The National Qigong Association www.nqa.org has a certification standard for Clinical Qigong practitioners and teachers. This standard was arrived at through several years of evaluating different programs and with an input from many of the top names in qigong and medical qigong. The Clinical Qigong Therapist certification requires a minimum of 500 hrs training. The level IV senior level teacher is required to have over 10 years of experience teaching. I think this is a good start on certification standards.

[Apech]

 

A start on a certifying agency has begun in the USA. The National Qigong Association www.nqa.org has a certification standard for Clinical Qigong practitioners and teachers. This standard was arrived at through several years of evaluating different programs and with an input from many of the top names in qigong and medical qigong. The Clinical Qigong Therapist certification requires a minimum of 500 hrs training. The level IV senior level teacher is required to have over 10 years of experience teaching. I think this is a good start on certification standards.

 

 

I have no wish to offend anyone but when I look for a teacher I meet them, talk to them, experience a class ... possibly punch them (?) and make my mind up if they are some one I can respect and learn from (and if they know anything worth knowing). The last thing I would look for is a certificate handed out by some regulating body. I know if Buddhism there is a system of authorization for teachers but that is different - it is a confirmation that a master has passed on the ability to teach a set of teachings to their pupil.

[Ya Mu]

I have no wish to offend anyone but when I look for a teacher I meet them, talk to them, experience a class ... possibly punch them (?) and make my mind up if they are some one I can respect and learn from (and if they know anything worth knowing). The last thing I would look for is a certificate handed out by some regulating body. I know if Buddhism there is a system of authorization for teachers but that is different - it is a confirmation that a master has passed on the ability to teach a set of teachings to their pupil.

 

I agree. The above mentioned certification standard IS a standard, however. It gives a good starting place for a beginner or even intermediate practitioner to find teachers that have given proof of training and longevity of teaching. Doesn't mean a thing as far as skills go.

 

But wouldn't most people rather start their search from among people who had given proof of training than from those who said they knew? And as far as clinical/medical qigong practitioners, as a potential patient looking for one wouldn't you rather start your search from among those that had given proof of training in medical qigong rather than from those that said they knew but are rather vague on where their training came from?

[Apech]

I agree. The above mentioned certification standard IS a standard, however. It gives a good starting place for a beginner or even intermediate practitioner to find teachers that have given proof of training and longevity of teaching. Doesn't mean a thing as far as skills go.

 

But wouldn't most people rather start their search from among people who had given proof of training than from those who said they knew? And as far as clinical/medical qigong practitioners, as a potential patient looking for one wouldn't you rather start your search from among those that had given proof of training in medical qigong rather than from those that said they knew but are rather vague on where their training came from?

 

Its a short step from one to the other I think. My last Tai Chi teacher (now sadly back in Taiwan) was working here in England and doing classes through the Education Authority. They insisted that she take a teaching course despite the fact that she had been practicing since she was a small child and had won various open competitions and so on. The teaching qualification interfered with her classes to the point that they changed beyond all recognition - and not for the better. She had no choice - I know cos I used to help her with her homework. Similarly when I practiced Aikido the requirements of the coaching certificates, health and safety rules and so on took away (IMO) the authentic feel of the classes - and therefore made the Aikido poorer. Mind you most of my teachers learned from Chiba Sensei so they were used to jumping up and down on people and breaking limbs to aid relaxation .

 

I'm sure you are right in some ways Ya Mu but I fear the growing trend to make everything subject to bits of paper. (Probably a sign of aging!)

[exorcist_1699]

 

What makes you think that? How many "masters" do you know? If you do know any, do you think they will live physically forever? I assure you they, too die a physical death.

How is it possible they die? Because they have dis-ease of the body. Everyone dies of something.

 

Of course, anyone who can be called a master in any expertise is the one who has extraordinary ability and knowledge in that arena, I have to admit that my criterion of defining one is high .

 

A master is not a acrobat in a circus , there is no need for him to amuse the crowd or prove to anyone his ability or immortality . Nor is he eager to pass any certificate / exam so as become a teacher or trainer .

 

In China , the qi gong treatment is generally done by TCM doctors , there is no specific qualification to make people into qigong doctor. On the other hand ,although acupuncturist can initiate qi by inserting needs into human body , manipulating it by their techniques , breathing and mind , they do not directly manipulate qi , so they can't be called qigong doctor.

 

It is just difficult to define and test the ability....Or, should you try to test Tao by something trivial ? ..

Edited January 19, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Ya Mu]

Its a short step from one to the other I think. My last Tai Chi teacher (now sadly back in Taiwan) was working here in England and doing classes through the Education Authority. They insisted that she take a teaching course despite the fact that she had been practicing since she was a small child and had won various open competitions and so on. The teaching qualification interfered with her classes to the point that they changed beyond all recognition - and not for the better. She had no choice - I know cos I used to help her with her homework. Similarly when I practiced Aikido the requirements of the coaching certificates, health and safety rules and so on took away (IMO) the authentic feel of the classes - and therefore made the Aikido poorer. Mind you most of my teachers learned from Chiba Sensei so they were used to jumping up and down on people and breaking limbs to aid relaxation .

 

I'm sure you are right in some ways Ya Mu but I fear the growing trend to make everything subject to bits of paper. (Probably a sign of aging!)

Of course, anyone who can be called a master in any expertise is the one who has extraordinary ability and knowledge in that arena, I have to admit that my criterion of defining one is high .

 

A master is not a acrobat in a circus , there is no need for him to amuse the crowd or prove to anyone his ability or immortality . Nor is he eager to pass any certificate / exam so as become a teacher or trainer .

 

In China , the qi gong treatment is generally done by TCM doctors , there is no specific qualification to make people into qigong doctor. On the other hand ,although acupuncturist can initiate qi by inserting needs into human body , manipulating it by their techniques , breathing and mind , they do not directly manipulate qi , so they can't be called qigong doctor.

 

It is just difficult to define and test the ability....Or, should you try to test Tao by something trivial ? ..

 

In China many of the qigong doctors are hospital trained and certified. I trained at the Baoding Qigong Healing Hospital and at separate clinics and have a communist government approved certificate. There are others who have learned healing techniques outside the hospital system.

 

Most acupuncturists in the USA have no clue about qigong. The ones that do learned separately from acupuncture school. I understand the acupuncture schools are now adding more qigong than in the past but it is still hit or miss depending on the school.

 

AS far as difficult to test - not really. Either it works or doesn't. A person who says they can but can't wouldn't last even one day in my clinic or in a hospital situation.

 

I'll agree to a certain point about the certificate thing and could easily argue either point of view. Like I said, a person either can or can't and a certificate certainly can't change that. In the end it is just like any other profession. The qigong healers that have results will have patients/clients and those that don't will eventually end up out of the system. In the meantime there are many people mis-representing themselves (yes, even some of those with certificates) to the public so it is buyer beware. I think that the certified by an independent agency thing still has some benefit to the public, as it does weed out some of those that are out to scam folks.

 

As far as someone being a qigong "master", my standards, just like some of the posters above, are pretty high. Once you have experienced qi with someone like Teacher Wang Juemin you realize that most of the people here in the USA that are called "masters" (as well as many of the ones in China) do not meet your personal criteria for such. I just put up a picture of qigong with Master Wang on www.stillness-movement.com where I am announcing a newly scheduled qigong workshop.

[Aetherous]

There should be a results based certification. The NQA is just based on how many hours you put into training and teaching...but that has no meaning on whether you can actually heal someone or not.

[Ya Mu]

There should be a results based certification. The NQA is just based on how many hours you put into training and teaching...but that has no meaning on whether you can actually heal someone or not.

 

True

But a results-based system is difficult to implement. I was on the standards committee for a couple of years. Extremely difficult to arrive at proper standards for medical qigong. In the end the NQA is relying on the teachers. The teachers have to have demonstrated training and proficiency. I can guarantee that anyone who graduates from my program WILL have the ability or they do not graduate. When they do graduate from my program or another program that meets their requirements, the NQA accepts the person's application for certification. Not a perfect system but it is all there is at this time in the USA.

Where the results based system shines is really after a person has offered their service to the public. It either works or doesn't. No-one is going to go to a person as a patient/client unless they demonstrate results.

[Aetherous]

Well like you said...you have very high standards for what qualifies for your students. And you've said before that you tend to get close to 100% positive results. So why couldn't a comittee monitor that?

 

An idea would be to make the practitioners give surveys to the clients and those surveys would be sent into the committee. If someone was getting mediocre results or some bad reports, then they would have to be re tested or something. It could work.

 

I don't know...I'm sure you know more since you actually were involved with the NQA. I'll take your word for it! Just some ideas.