En*light*enment

[Taiji Bum]

 

Where the results based system shines is really after a person has offered their service to the public. It either works or doesn't. No-one is going to go to a person as a patient/client unless they demonstrate results.

...or "Theres a sucker born every minute.", as PT 'Barnum would say.

[voidisyinyang]

The purple haze in my brain was its strongest last night which means I'm making progress on the third eye opening -- it's like watching t.v. inside your brain. As for spirit travel and healing you really have to build up the chi -- or electromagnetic energy -- which is hard since there's so many energy parasites, males fixated on sucking people off for their own ejaculation -- dick heads. Number 1 to Number 2 people based on Gurdjieff's system. That's why real Taoist training takes place in the mountains -- or in isolation -- you see this in martial arts movies -- when they need to learn the "iron palm" or whatever -- it's always, we have to go into the woods so we can train safely.

Edited January 19, 2009 by drew hempel

[Ya Mu]

...or "Theres a sucker born every minute.", as PT 'Barnum would say.

 

Sure there exists a lot of ignorance. But I can speak as a person who has had injury and pain; it either works or it doesn't. It would be really dumb to keep seeing a practitioner that didn't help. In my clinic I offer guaranteed pain relief or no fee; I think all therapists and doctors who work with pain patients ought to offer this but it seems unlikely that would happen.

 

 

Well like you said...you have very high standards for what qualifies for your students. And you've said before that you tend to get close to 100% positive results. So why couldn't a comittee monitor that?

 

An idea would be to make the practitioners give surveys to the clients and those surveys would be sent into the committee. If someone was getting mediocre results or some bad reports, then they would have to be re tested or something. It could work.

 

I don't know...I'm sure you know more since you actually were involved with the NQA. I'll take your word for it! Just some ideas.

Good ideas.

 

The students are required to do clinic work before certification.

 

I think the agreement of who to use for testing a person's ability and logistics of having a committee monitor this are difficult. Don't think this was not suggested

[Magda]

A master is not a acrobat in a circus , there is no need for him to amuse the crowd or prove to anyone his ability or immortality . Nor is he eager to pass any certificate / exam so as become a teacher or trainer .

There's nothing wrong with demonstrating abilities, especially if a person who demonstrates them actually uses them to earn his living! Would you rather go to a healer who is proven or to a healer who could mess you up instead? At least in case of healing it makes all sense to ask for proof beforehand. In case of teaching it might be offensive, but imho it's all about the manner you use to ask. If you explain why you need a demonstration and your words are reasonable, then maybe you'll be given one.

 

As for the attitude of masters not ever demonstrating anything, I think it's very comfortable for all fake masters that are after your money

Edited January 19, 2009 by Magda

[rookie]

Money, sex and power trip a lot of people up. I am glad I held off on all three until after 40 years of age.

 

Darin Hammel

So dude, I have to ask you how you were able to hold off on money and power until you were 40?

The sex thing can be a number of things or circumstances. But money and power are a basic part of being an adult and responsible for yourself. So I just don't know how this could happen except for something like, being in an institution, a coma, a monastery, or some situation where you were not in control of the decision making in your day to day affairs.

You seem sane, and reasonable for the most part, so I am curious what the truth fo your situation is.

After that, I wonder why you believe why that is an advantage?

 

Usually the young adult years are very formative. Some level of experimenting, finding your place in the world, who you are in relation to the opposite sex, learning how to relate in all the different ways, student, employee, lover, friend, dumper, dumpee, whatever life brings you.

 

Struggle, learning, followed by mastery after a few cycles, this is the natural way, yes?

 

So I wonder how does abstaining from life for 22 years help get you in a position to handle these things better?

[lino]

Did you have an unbalanced awakening? I seem to be getting more focused as my cultivation practice goes on and not less focused. I'd like to think I am working on the Ajna at the moment but nowhere near the crown chakra. Was there a sign or something when your crown opened or was it gradual?

 

 

Why not do crown breathing and foot breathing?

 

It's supposed to accumulate a lot of energy.

[lino]

No, you are still inside Samsara, limited by the laws of yin and yang. Chi, yin, yang are all Samsaric elements.

 

Enlightenment can only be accomplished by following Buddha's path.

 

The Taoist path is an excellent way of cultivating your health and nourishing your spirit but you are still bounded by the law of Karma.

 

Adopting both practices is the best way to reach that goal, but it takes many lifetimes as you know

 

I have to disagree with this.

 

There were Buddhas before Buddhism was called "Buddhism".

 

Shakyamuni revolted against the self-mortification methods that were common during his day.

He expressed that the body needs to be kept healthy in order to reach Enlightenment. Shakyamuni

may have been an ascetic from 29 to 35 years of age but he studied the Vedas while he was still a prince.

 

In Taoism, jing is refined into chi, chi is refined into shen, shen is returned to emptiness. The early part of a Taoist curriculum is cultivation of life (the regaining of health).

 

Good deeds and virtues are also important in Taoism.

[lino]

you are very defensive

 

This thread is about enlightenment and I am pointing that the pursuit of power isn't the way

 

Your ego is your biggest problem (this is pretty much true of everyone)

 

But maybe that is your way to enlightenment, as lightbringer says

I'll give you that much

 

 

I lean more towards Trunk's approach.

Jing, Chi, Shen = Vitality, Love, Wisdom

 

I found this at another site:

 

http://qigonginstitute.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/529

 

"In conclusion it can be seen that there is some merit to the idea

that Taoist alchemy may be a description of a natural process

which occurs through the practice of meditation, regardless of

the particular technique or tradition, and not merely a collection

of ancient visualisation techniques. "

 

I found this site when I was looking up "jing to chi" on google.

 

Then again, Bill Bodri wrote that in the last 60 years Master Nan

has never met anybody that was at the stage of refining Jing to Chi.

[Spectrum]

All the "power" you ever need is right under your feet when you relax and let the big T handle the details.

[Apech]

I lean more towards Trunk's approach.

Jing, Chi, Shen = Vitality, Love, Wisdom

 

I found this at another site:

 

http://qigonginstitute.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/529

 

"In conclusion it can be seen that there is some merit to the idea

that Taoist alchemy may be a description of a natural process

which occurs through the practice of meditation, regardless of

the particular technique or tradition, and not merely a collection

of ancient visualisation techniques. "

 

I found this site when I was looking up "jing to chi" on google.

 

Then again, Bill Bodri wrote that in the last 60 years Master Nan

has never met anybody that was at the stage of refining Jing to Chi.

 

 

Lino,

 

Thanks that is an excellent article - the idea of the alchemy as a natural process is IMO spot on and also points to the universality of this experience - which is then expressed in different ways.

 

Cheers.

[Lightbringer]

All the "power" you ever need is right under your feet when you relax and let the big T handle the details.

 

Good stuff.

[Unconditioned]

I never understood those that shy away from power and think its a bad thing. Sorta like the people why say money is a bad thing too. That always makes me wonder because they are usually poor and powerless. Do people say things like that to make themselves feel better? Whats wrong with power? The Tao Teh Ching is the ultimate book on how to become god-like in power.... so whats wrong with power?

 

Similarly, the commonly misquoted Bible passage "for the LOVE of money is the root of all evil", it is the DESIRE for power which, technically is neither good nor bad, but reinforces the ego. A desire based on illusion results in illusion.

[lino]

Lino,

 

Thanks that is an excellent article - the idea of the alchemy as a natural process is IMO spot on and also points to the universality of this experience - which is then expressed in different ways.

 

Cheers.

 

It is also supported by what Dr.Glenn Morris put out in his books. He was doing chinese practices and got hindu archetypes and hindu results instead.

 

I have to discard visualization (fake it to make it) "alchemy" techniques completely now. It is a bunch of garbage and leads to nowhere. Alchemy is something that just HAPPENS. I see why there is such a huge gap in between practitioners...and don't look at "siddhi", look at worldly type stuff. For example, Robert Peng was a Professor in China (which I think is an ultra-competitive type setting).

 

I'm mainly tactile in nature and that got blown away due to a lot of external interference that is MALICIOUS in nature. I don't like visualizations due to that it is energy wasted that could be better utilized in repairing the body.

 

Alchemy either HAPPENS or IT DOESN'T HAPPEN. If the practice doesn't enhance (give TANGIBLE RESULTS) or give you an edge (even small) in other parts of your life (such as health or professionally), then either you have a practice that you have no affinity to, or you got a hold of garbage practices that distract you from doing something that is productive or helpful.

 

Keep in mind that even if you think that you experienced it, it might still be fake due to external influences that are malicious.

[Unconditioned]

Good deeds and virtues are also important in Taoism.

 

How so?

 

 

Keep in mind that even if you think that you experienced it, it might still be fake due to external influences that are malicious.

 

If you think you experienced it, it is just a thought that you experienced, not what is actually happening.

 

Edit: removed unneeded words.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Unconditioned

[lino]

How so?

If you think you experienced it, it is just a thought that you experienced, not what is actually happening.

 

Edit: removed unneeded words.

 

 

http://oaks.nvg.org/ys1ra6.html

 

"He who would seek to become an Immortal of Heaven ought to give the proof of 1300 good deeds; and he who would seek to become an Immortal of Earth should give the proof of three hundred. "

 

http://www.meditationexpert.com/blog/tag/taoism/

 

"Even the Tao school says you must do 3,000 great deeds (saving a life is one great deed) and 1,000 minor good deeds. Another school of Taoism insists on more than 800 virtuous deeds and more than 3,000 hidden virtues."

 

http://www.springsgreetingcards.com/catalo....asp?pid=233869

 

"38. A true virtue acts naturally out of compassion with wisdom. A true virtue experiences a joyful heart and inner peace. The sage does good deeds, not to show off, and without strings attached. He goes by harmony, not by desire. He lives in a simple, happy, and content life. Weaknesses melt away in the presence of virtue. As you grow in virtue, you will naturally grow in joy."

 

I will never agree to organized religion or dogma. Trying to be a good person and avoiding bad company is just simply common sense.

 

on edit: Heaven isn't going to tolerate having a drop in market or property value due to the result of inviting in riff-raff or questionable types. And it, sure as hell, won't give anything or do anything to protect riff-raff or questionable types (I'm a living example, I know what I'm talking about)

Edited January 22, 2009 by lino

[Unconditioned]

http://oaks.nvg.org/ys1ra6.html

 

"He who would seek to become an Immortal of Heaven ought to give the proof of 1300 good deeds; and he who would seek to become an Immortal of Earth should give the proof of three hundred. "

 

http://www.meditationexpert.com/blog/tag/taoism/

 

"Even the Tao school says you must do 3,000 great deeds (saving a life is one great deed) and 1,000 minor good deeds. Another school of Taoism insists on more than 800 virtuous deeds and more than 3,000 hidden virtues."

 

http://www.springsgreetingcards.com/catalo....asp?pid=233869

 

"38. A true virtue acts naturally out of compassion with wisdom. A true virtue experiences a joyful heart and inner peace. The sage does good deeds, not to show off, and without strings attached. He goes by harmony, not by desire. He lives in a simple, happy, and content life. Weaknesses melt away in the presence of virtue. As you grow in virtue, you will naturally grow in joy."

 

I will never agree to organized religion or dogma. Trying to be a good person and avoiding bad company is just simply common sense.

 

on edit: Heaven isn't going to tolerate having a drop in market or property value due to the result of inviting in riff-raff or questionable types. And it sure as hell, won't give you anything or do anything to protect riff-raff or questionable types (I'm a living example, I know what I'm talking about)

 

Personally I don't believe in the existence of Heaven or Hell except as an idea. I'm not sure how credible the blog post is, it's another person's opinion, I prefer to find out first hand. Doesn't mean their right or wrong, just means I don't know.

 

That's an interesting translation of TTC 38. That's the first time I've seen it translated as virtue with compassion and wisdom. That's a tough nut to crack since those three things can be difficult to define.

 

I think ethics serve to create a peaceful society but I suspect outside of that being a 'good person' is a sly disguise for feeding our egos. When I do something nice for someone else, I feel good about myself. But what does that really mean? Isn't that reinforcing the ego? Should we feel good all the time regardless of the circumstance? Hmm... I really don't know.

 

Tao Te Ching 39 may shed some light:

 

39

 

The things which from of old have got the One (the Tao) are--

 

Heaven which by it is bright and pure;

Earth rendered thereby firm and sure;

Spirits with powers by it supplied;

Valleys kept full throughout their void

All creatures which through it do live

Princes and kings who from it get

The model which to all they give.

 

All these are the results of the One (Tao).

 

If heaven were not thus pure, it soon would rend;

If earth were not thus sure, 'twould break and bend;

Without these powers, the spirits soon would fail;

If not so filled, the drought would parch each vale;

Without that life, creatures would pass away;

Princes and kings, without that moral sway,

However grand and high, would all decay.

 

Thus it is that dignity finds its (firm) root in its (previous)

meanness, and what is lofty finds its stability in the lowness (from

which it rises). Hence princes and kings call themselves 'Orphans,'

'Men of small virtue,' and as 'Carriages without a nave.' Is not this

an acknowledgment that in their considering themselves mean they see

the foundation of their dignity? So it is that in the enumeration of

the different parts of a carriage we do not come on what makes it

answer the ends of a carriage. They do not wish to show themselves

elegant-looking as jade, but (prefer) to be coarse-looking as an

(ordinary) stone.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Unconditioned

[Lightbringer]

That's an interesting translation of TTC 38. That's the first time I've seen it translated as virtue with compassion and wisdom. That's a tough nut to crack since those three things can be difficult to define.

 

They're only difficult to define for those who are rarely exposed to them. Work to bring them into your life. Then feel what aspects of what you associate with "virtue, compassion and wisdom" make you feel content, satisfied and fulfilled. If something gives you a boost and makes you feel "good about you" it's no more one of those three concepts than that which makes you feel like crap.

 

I think ethics serve to create a peaceful society but I suspect outside of that being a 'good person' is a sly disguise for feeding our egos. When I do something nice for someone else, I feel good about myself. But what does that really mean? Isn't that reinforcing the ego? Should we feel good all the time regardless of the circumstance? Hmm... I really don't know.

 

Again, this is a symptom of someone who has limited exposure to the above three positive concepts. Feeling good about yourself is not the same and being happy to serve yourself, others and universe as a whole.

[lino]

Personally I don't believe in the existence of Heaven or Hell except as an idea. I'm not sure how credible the blog post is, it's another person's opinion, I prefer to find out first hand. Doesn't mean their right or wrong, just means I don't know.

 

That's an interesting translation of TTC 38. That's the first time I've seen it translated as virtue with compassion and wisdom. That's a tough nut to crack since those three things can be difficult to define.

 

I think ethics serve to create a peaceful society but I suspect outside of that being a 'good person' is a sly disguise for feeding our egos. When I do something nice for someone else, I feel good about myself. But what does that really mean? Isn't that reinforcing the ego? Should we feel good all the time regardless of the circumstance? Hmm... I really don't know.

 

Tao Te Ching 39 may shed some light:

 

39

 

The things which from of old have got the One (the Tao) are--

 

Heaven which by it is bright and pure;

Earth rendered thereby firm and sure;

Spirits with powers by it supplied;

Valleys kept full throughout their void

All creatures which through it do live

Princes and kings who from it get

The model which to all they give.

 

All these are the results of the One (Tao).

 

If heaven were not thus pure, it soon would rend;

If earth were not thus sure, 'twould break and bend;

Without these powers, the spirits soon would fail;

If not so filled, the drought would parch each vale;

Without that life, creatures would pass away;

Princes and kings, without that moral sway,

However grand and high, would all decay.

 

Thus it is that dignity finds its (firm) root in its (previous)

meanness, and what is lofty finds its stability in the lowness (from

which it rises). Hence princes and kings call themselves 'Orphans,'

'Men of small virtue,' and as 'Carriages without a nave.' Is not this

an acknowledgment that in their considering themselves mean they see

the foundation of their dignity? So it is that in the enumeration of

the different parts of a carriage we do not come on what makes it

answer the ends of a carriage. They do not wish to show themselves

elegant-looking as jade, but (prefer) to be coarse-looking as an

(ordinary) stone.

 

Enlightenment comes (don't put money on it and don't bet on it)

or it doesn't. I'll be glad to FEED THE EGO if it

makes me happier.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-...rld-433063.html

[lino]

Personally I don't believe in the existence of Heaven or Hell except as an idea. I'm not sure how credible the blog post is, it's another person's opinion, I prefer to find out first hand. Doesn't mean their right or wrong, just means I don't know.

 

I rather be somewhat educated and I rather know what to expect. I've ran into "people" and I know that my imagination is very LIMITED, I don't have it in me to IMAGINE them.

 

I still prefer to keep out of a religious setting.

 

If it goes against your common sense then don't believe it or practice it.

 

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

-Shakyamuni

 

I used to be a hardcore Atheist. A lot more often than not, I wish I would have stayed ignorant...it is a lot better than being disappointed. I've ran into 99.99% bad and .01% good. Enlightenment ,even a pre-cursor to Base or Lower Enlightment, is hit or miss, it can take fucking 100s of lifetimes so I see no prospect of anything good, not so much as a tiny little speck at the end of the tunnel. This is why I put Happiness over Enlightenment and will always continue to do so.

 

I'm still hitting low points the majority of every single day to where I wish I would completely die (soul, awareness, and all) permanently or, at least, have no phenomena till the end of time. This has been for the last year and a half. A true fucking waking nightmare and the only time I get any relief is in dreamless sleep.

Edited January 22, 2009 by lino

[Valerian]

Enlightenment comes (don't put money on it and don't bet on it)

or it doesn't. I'll be glad to FEED THE EGO if it

makes me happier.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-...rld-433063.html

 

I laughed for a while thanks to the irony of your post. I'll gladly tell you why, and I think you may laugh too.

 

That man speaks of happiness as a skill, and it is. But the motivation to learn those skills, the desire to move beyond negativity and toward true happiness, and the wisdom to apply his knowledge to his own life were all learned as he became enlightened. What do you think enlightened people are? Soulless, boring intellectuals who sit and meditate all day? They're the happiest people in the world! They're probably some of the happiest beings in the universe. They're active (no need to sit and meditate, though they have no aversion to it), masters of their talents and successful in whatever they want to be.

 

Your definition of happy (as your ego has convinced you and which you have bought into) is simply sense addiction. Your ego conveys a basic primal desire to you and it overwhelms you until you satisfy it. Your happiness is just the relief from the torturous state of wanting something but not having it. Relief from unhappiness is not happiness, simply distraction.