the two levels of enlightenment

[roger]

Sri Chinmoy taught that there's liberation (the Zen Buddhists call it little enlightenment) and realization (big enlightenment). He says liberation always comes first.

 

He says liberation is total freedom from ignorance. In other words, you've found the truth. In realization, you BECOME the truth, you ARE the truth.

 

With liberation, if you were looking at a pencil, you would recognize it as divine nature, as a form of God. You might see it as utterly beautiful, you'd see its innocence, its worth. With realization, you are the pencil, you are its beauty and innocence.

 

In liberation, you KNOW God/Tao; in realization, you ARE God/Tao.

 

I've been thinking about this recently and I thought you all might find it interesting.

[RiverSnake]

Enlightenment IME is never too far away. It's a matter of the degree to which you can "embody" consciousness in it's purest form. There are always deeper levels IME so far. 

Edited September 5, 2017 by WayofChi

[CloudHands]

17 hours ago, roger said:

Sri Chinmoy taught that there's liberation (the Zen Buddhists call it little enlightenment) and realization (big enlightenment). He says liberation always comes first.

 

He says liberation is total freedom from ignorance. In other words, you've found the truth. In realization, you BECOME the truth, you ARE the truth.

 

With liberation, if you were looking at a pencil, you would recognize it as divine nature, as a form of God. You might see it as utterly beautiful, you'd see its innocence, its worth. With realization, you are the pencil, you are its beauty and innocence.

 

In liberation, you KNOW God/Tao; in realization, you ARE God/Tao.

 

I've been thinking about this recently and I thought you all might find it interesting.

 

A state of ego dissolution experienced permanently is what you're talking about ?

[Lost in Translation]

This seems oddly appropriate...

 

 

[roger]

On September 5, 2017 at 3:16 PM, CloudHands said:

 

A state of ego dissolution experienced permanently is what you're talking about ?

 

I've been sitting here thinking about this for a while, and it really depends on what you mean. In a sense, ego dissolution is impossible. Even realized beings have egos. The difference is that they have HEALTHY egos. Ego needs healing.

[dawei]

I wanted to comment but don't know if the topic is to stick to a discussion of the two levels... I might be trying to say that while some might feel it is incremental, it seems more two sides of a coin.

 

I also think of the argument the south Zen school:  While there are two schools there is one Dharma.  Some come to it slow and some fast.   But when you come to it, that moment is instantaneous.

 

I'm no Zen nor Dharma follower, I just recall the story... so please don't beat up the messenger of reading too many books :

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, roger said:

 

I've been sitting here thinking about this for a while, and it really depends on what you mean. In a sense, ego dissolution is impossible. Even realized beings have egos. The difference is that they have HEALTHY egos. Ego needs healing.

 

I feel that just as there is a lower and higher mind and lower and higher senses, there is also a lower and higher ego.

 

I believe the lower ego does need to be pulled apart and examined and 'dissolved', but after that process or even more perhaps during that process somewhere, ego is reassembled but this time deliberately and maturely, not as knee jerk reactions to the world around us from a very young age.

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Bindi

[Lost in Translation]

On 9/4/2017 at 7:04 PM, roger said:

He says liberation is total freedom from ignorance. In other words, you've found the truth. In realization, you BECOME the truth, you ARE the truth.

 

I think this is very important, most important. If we flip this 180 and look at creation from a soul perspective then witnessing life (the idea of living) is truth, but actually BEING alive is, well - look around...

 

People spend lifetimes asking why we live, why we have freedom, why we have choice, and love, and pain, and suffering. It's the being that matters, not the thinking. But the being is so immersive we forget why we are here. Thank you for reminding us.

[Nothingness]

11 hours ago, roger said:

 

I've been sitting here thinking about this for a while, and it really depends on what you mean. In a sense, ego dissolution is impossible. Even realized beings have egos. The difference is that they have HEALTHY egos. Ego needs healing.

I agree with the first original post. 

But on this one, tho whom does their ego appear? 

Sri Ramana Maharshi said the Jnani is egoless and bodiless, but to an external observer, he will appear to have a body and a mind (and therefore an ego-individuality). 

 

There is a difference between having a purer ego and no ego. 

You experience ego dissolution every time you go into deep sleep. 

Before you refuse the idea of the actions of someone only being perceived by an external observer, consider the sleepwalkers. 

They might go grab a glass of milk, talk with you and go back to sleep, yet they are completely unaware of what is going on. It is just happening in your view.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Nothingness

[mrpasserby]

16 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I think this is very important, most important. If we flip this 180 and look at creation from a soul perspective then witnessing life (the idea of living) is truth, but actually BEING alive is, well - look around...

 

People spend lifetimes asking why we live, why we have freedom, why we have choice, and love, and pain, and suffering. It's the being that matters, not the thinking. But the being is so immersive we forget why we are here. Thank you for reminding us.

'I think this is very important, most important. If we flip this 180 and look at creation from a soul perspective then witnessing life'
Lost in Translation,  This statement of yours is exciting to hear because it is the path that I have been taught to follow. I am a newbe to Taoism, so I ask is this a Taoist concept?

[dwai]

On 9/4/2017 at 9:04 PM, roger said:

Sri Chinmoy taught that there's liberation (the Zen Buddhists call it little enlightenment) and realization (big enlightenment). He says liberation always comes first.

 

He says liberation is total freedom from ignorance. In other words, you've found the truth. In realization, you BECOME the truth, you ARE the truth.

 

With liberation, if you were looking at a pencil, you would recognize it as divine nature, as a form of God. You might see it as utterly beautiful, you'd see its innocence, its worth. With realization, you are the pencil, you are its beauty and innocence.

 

In liberation, you KNOW God/Tao; in realization, you ARE God/Tao.

 

I've been thinking about this recently and I thought you all might find it interesting.

Sounds like savikalpa samadhi and nirvikalpa samadhi 

[Lost in Translation]

2 hours ago, mrpasserby said:

This statement of yours is exciting to hear because it is the path that I have been taught to follow. I am a newbe to Taoism, so I ask is this a Taoist concept?

 

I really don't know. I've studied so many paths and forged a few of my own. It's all one big mess in my head now.

 

[mrpasserby]

Lost in Translation, This powerful knowing of yours, causes me to ask have you passed through any gates, or received any new names?

[Lost in Translation]

4 minutes ago, mrpasserby said:

Lost in Translation, This powerful knowing of yours, causes me to ask have you passed through any gates, or received any new names?

 

Me?!? I am flattered but nowhere near there. I'm just a guy living his life.

[mrpasserby]

Lost in Translation, know I am impressed with your humility and your knowledge. This dao bums website gets more intriguing to this old mage by the day. 

[ChiForce]

A complete enlightenment you would realize even the pencil isn't real.  A partial enlightenment a pencil is still real to you in a relative sense.  Is about the degree of your Dharma realization. 

[ChiForce]

On 9/6/2017 at 9:12 PM, dawei said:

I wanted to comment but don't know if the topic is to stick to a discussion of the two levels... I might be trying to say that while some might feel it is incremental, it seems more two sides of a coin.

 

I also think of the argument the south Zen school:  While there are two schools there is one Dharma.  Some come to it slow and some fast.   But when you come to it, that moment is instantaneous.

 

I'm no Zen nor Dharma follower, I just recall the story... so please don't beat up the messenger of reading too many books :

If you read the Zen Teaching of Huang Po On the Transmission of the Mind, he, yes, did emphasize the instantaneous quality of receiving and realizing one's enlightenment.  It is almost assuming that you can achieve your final liberation in this life time.  Yet, he did acknowledge that certain individuals do have the karma and merit to advance further and faster in the Zen teaching.  Therefore, they are more suitable to practice Zen...then studying the sutras alone.  Anyway, realizing your own enlightenment goes far beyond just the Dharma quality of a pencil.       Try one's suffering.....Try to completely cutting off from your own world and yet to have empathy , understanding, and compassion for those around you.   

[windwalker]

Edited September 8, 2017 by windwalker