Mair 6:7 (Repeat)

[Marblehead]

Yen Hui inquired of Confucius, saying, "When Mengsun Ts'ai's {{A wise man of the state of Lu.  Olai (p. 268).  A deceitful minister of the tyrant Chow who was put to death together with his ruler by King Wu of the Chou dynasty.}} mother died, he cried without tears, his heart felt no distress, and during the period of mourning he felt no sorrow.  Although lacking these three qualities, he was held to be the best mourner in the state of Lu.  Can one really attain a name without the substance?  I find this to be very strange."

"The clansman Mengsun was so thorough," said Confucius, "that he had advanced beyond knowledge.  Although he may have wished to simplify mourning, but wasn't able to do so fully, still there is that which he did simplify.  Mengsun didn't know why he lived and didn't know why he would die.  He didn't know which came first, life or death, and which came last.  You see, he just went along with the transformation of things, awaiting the unknown transformation that was in store for him.  Moreover, as we are about to undergo transformation, how do we know that we aren't already transformed?  As we are about to cease transformation, how do we know that we have already transformed?  Perhaps you and I are in a dream from which we have not yet awakened.  He, however, had a vulnerable physical body but no damage to his mind, a patched-together lodge but no expenditure of his essence.  Mengsun was singularly awakened.  When others cried, he cried too.  That's why he behaved himself as he did.

"Moreover, people identify each other as 'I,' but how do we know that what we call 'I' may not really be 'I'?  You may dream that you are a bird and streak across the sky, that you are a fish and descend to the depths.  We cannot determine whether we who are speaking now are awake or dreaming.  We may be so suddenly delighted that we don't have a chance to smile; we may break into a smile before we have a chance to arrange ourselves.  Repose in what has been arranged for you and leave transformation behind, then you will be able to enter the unity of vast heaven.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Marblehead

[Anastasia]

23 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Repose in what has been arranged for you and leave transformation behind, then you will be able to enter the unity of vast heaven.

 

I really like this sentence. I feel it is the essence of Daoism.

 

Thanks, Marbelhead.

[Taoist Texts]

On 9/10/2017 at 11:36 PM, Marblehead said:

leave transformation behind,

what exactly does this mean?

[Marblehead]

25 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

what exactly does this mean?

It means you have reached your ultimate.  No more transformations.

 

[Taoist Texts]

i looked it up. it means 'death'.

 

"Repose in what has been arranged for you and leave transformation behind (DIE), then you will be able to enter the unity of vast heaven."

 

can't see any wisdom in that.

[Marblehead]

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i looked it up. it means 'death'.

 

"Repose in what has been arranged for you and leave transformation behind (DIE), then you will be able to enter the unity of vast heaven."

 

can't see any wisdom in that.

But we might be talking about death of ego here.  No more transformations because we have already merged with the One.

 

This actually takes a lot of pressure off our mind.

 

[Anastasia]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

But we might be talking about death of ego here.  No more transformations because we have already merged with the One.

 

This actually takes a lot of pressure off our mind.

 

I agree. I think it means we stop trying to become something else and find peace being ourselves.

[Taoist Texts]

The readers can interpret this line any each way , as is their natural born right.)

 

But what ZZ is saying is

 

"accept your lot , die and blend  back into the universal matter". Thats all it says)

 

There is no " leave transformation behind," is Mair's mistranlation of 去化 'going away - transforming', which means 'dying'. ZZ just puts it this way , not saying 'dying' outright, because he believed in some kind of life after death.

[Mudfoot]

14 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

"accept your lot , die and blend  back into the universal matter". 

So no spiritual immortality retaining your identity forever?  No yangshen? 

He wasn't a daoist then? 

[Marblehead]

I'm going to stay out of this one.

 

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

So no spiritual immortality retaining your identity forever?  No yangshen? 

In this passage - no, but in previous passages - yes. He just did not believe that identity or yangshen are worthwhile.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

He wasn't a daoist then? 

Of course he was. He believes in Dao which surpasses identity and yangshen.

[Mudfoot]

The different facets of daoism are interesting. 

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

But from the alchemically-integrated school's view, oddly enough, there is a weird tendency that had emerged to say that Zhuangzi wasn't actually a Daoist

interesting. i dont remember  anyone refute ZZ as being not daoist, let alone the alchemists rejecting him.

[Marblehead]

9 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

Zhuangzi, by comparison, only followed the way of heaven. 

 

It's peculiar.

I would strongly disagree with this.

 

[Marblehead]

Now I can more willingly agree.  Chuang Tzu was not an Alchemic Taoist.  Therefore, Alchemic Taoists would reject him.

 

I try very hard to never confuse Confucian thought with Taoist thought, just as I do regarding Buddhism and Taoism.

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

36 minutes ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

  However, many of the alchemical traditions that I've heard about in China have the strong connection (in one way or another) to Confucianism.  

Thats right on the money

26 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

 I try very hard to never confuse Confucian thought with Taoist thought,  

Its a shame bcouse Kong-zi was the head honcho of the whole lot

 

 

Though tradition has treated Laozi and Zhuangzi as the Socrates and Plato of ‘Daoism,’ the use of Lao-Zhuang to identify a strain of thought may have become common only as with Neo-Daoism in the 3^rd Century AD. Not only is it true that “Zhuangzi never knew he was a Daoist”, (Graham 1981, 128) he probably also didn't know anything about the Laozi.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/daoism/

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

True, I cannot recall any comment in the Chuang Tzu where he referred to himself as a Taoist.  We do know how he felt about Confucius though.

 

 

[Stosh]

Didn't we all go through this thing of what a Daoist was? and the conclusion was, essentially ,  -someone who breathes?  

[Stosh]

On 9/11/2017 at 11:32 PM, Taoist Texts said:

i looked it up. it means 'death'.

 

"Repose in what has been arranged for you and leave transformation behind (DIE), then you will be able to enter the unity of vast heaven."

 

can't see any wisdom in that.

Where did you look this up? may I ask? 

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Stosh said:

Where did you look this up? may I ask? 

sure, in the original

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han/ens?searchu= 去化

 

the last line, highlighted

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

sure, in the original

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han/ens?searchu= 去化

 

the last line, highlighted

I dont see that character pairing elsewhere in the text, but not being able to read it , that might be misguided, anyway , from the context, the idea of the transformation includes the possibility of ones , death, birth ,or rebirth, or reincarnation, or new dream or return to the mystery from which mind is distilled. 

The usual idea of death is included in the story ,but a broader understanding or speculation ,is  

d delineated as the protagonists enlightened understanding. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Transformations require the mental perspective of ourselves as we were or will be , as opposed to just the reality of things just existing now. Being alive, is a now situation and only now exists . Now is the perspective of heaven ,no fear of death, no actual death , death and birth equally a  mystery. there is no call to mourn a death which is just as likely a birth , and so he sheds no tear for the dead but is moved by the sorrow around him secondhand ,but sincerely so. 

The end of transformations is not then death, but a state of different perspective in which one sees themself as being ok in whatever capacity they are existing , at rest. 

More simply said, is to say that he has an inner level of peace because he understands flesh and blood reality to be a dream.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

9 hours ago, Stosh said:

 

The end of transformations is not then death, but a state of different perspective in which one sees themself as being ok in whatever capacity they are existing , at rest. 

Yes.

 

9 hours ago, Stosh said:

More simply said, is to say that he has an inner level of peace because he understands flesh and blood reality to be a dream.

Oops.  You got Buddhist on me there.

 

[Stosh]

17 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yes.

 

Oops.  You got Buddhist on me there.

 

Merely a confluence of perspective ,,,  I think. 

At least I didnt say that the kingdom of heaven was at hand.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

I initially had this titled  Mair  11:7

 

There is no such animal.

 

I have changed the title to be correct:  Mair  6:7

 

It is a repeat of the same section above so I added (Repeat) to the title.

 

I am practicing my ability to create chaos.