The Effect of Drugs and other Substances on our Spiritual Training!

[LousyLaoTzu]

This is both a question and a topic of debate in which I invite the rest of the Daobums; Do you think the use of herbs,  liquors,  and other forms of drugs/narcotics are dangerous to our spirituality or do you believe it could aid it  by providing a peculiar and unique point of view you wouldn't see otherwise? 

[Jeff]

I think once or twice can be eye opening for some with certain types of drugs. But, repeated usage just builds attachment and dependency. Also, any such substance inherently limits the relative depth of clarity of mind (or consciousness).

[sagebrush]

its probably best to get high on the nature/wilderness/mountains/ocean...etc.

however, I find my life with a couple of experiments with hallucinogenic mushrooms to be one of my best memories of laughter and skewed perception.

\I do not think on a consistent basis drugs are positive. In the habitual use it will be damaging no doubt imo.

 

as far as alcohol....I can't say that I don't enjoy occasional cold beer, chardonnay, or a Moscow mule...but booze for me  is a real downer after the first drink.

 

glad it is something that I can go without for long periods of time.

 

caffeine on the other hand.....struggling with that but down to a smaller amount from previous months.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by sagebrush
correction

[Stumpich]

I want to use drugs.

I love Cannabis - I always have - since I was a little kid - I believe in the spiritual use of cannabis 

I like drugs - I always have --- to tell you otherwise would be to tell you a lie

I don't like a lot of the people you have to deal with to get them - that's why I am for legalization 100 %

 

I would never go near alcohol or tobacco 

here is a video about me taking care of  my cannabis plants & teaching myself kung fu

 

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Stumpich

[ChiForce]

I completed my MCO AND the Kundalini energy rising when I was 18, without the use of drugs.  I don't smoke or drink.  I oppose the use of drugs of course because the drug induced blissful experiences would not allow you to realize the transcendental wisdom (knowledge of the Dharma or the Tao).  Frankly, the drugs themselves did it for you, not your thoughts or consciousness.  Some claim that the drugs are useful to get you started on the path..... 

[LousyLaoTzu]

2 hours ago, sagebrush said:

its probably best to get high on the nature/wilderness/mountains/ocean...etc.

however, I find my life with a couple of experiments with hallucinogenic mushrooms to be one of my best memories of laughter and skewed perception.

\I do not think on a consistent basis drugs are positive. In the habitual use it will be damaging no doubt imo.

 

as far as alcohol....I can't say that I don't enjoy occasional cold beer, chardonnay, or a Moscow mule...but booze for me  is a real downer after the first drink.

 

glad it is something that I can go without for long periods of time.

 

caffeine on the other hand.....struggling with that but down to a smaller amount from previous months.

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Stumpich said:

I want to use drugs.

I love Cannabis - I always have - since I was a little kid - I believe in the spiritual use of cannabis 

I like drugs - I always have --- to tell you otherwise would be to tell you a lie

I don't like a lot of the people you have to deal with to get them - that's why I am for legalization 100 %

 

I would never go near alcohol or tobacco 

here is a video about me taking care of  my cannabis plants & teaching myself kung fu

 

 

 

2 hours ago, ChiForce said:

I completed my MCO AND the Kundalini energy rising when I was 18, without the use of drugs.  I don't smoke or drink.  I oppose the use of drugs of course because the drug induced blissful experiences would not allow you to realize the transcendental wisdom (knowledge of the Dharma or the Tao).  Frankly, the drugs themselves did it for you, not your thoughts or consciousness.  Some claim that the drugs are useful to get you started on the path..... 

Interesting discussion so far,  we're met with two sides of opinion.  

 

I've heard trance like states induced from certain narcotics, a trance that would lead a person down the  path of self enlightenment.  Yet as another person has stated already too much snd it becomes a hindrance. 

 

 

When it becomes necessary to reach these states it becomes sort of a crutch doesn't it? It becomes an attachment.  Something that will keep us further from the Tao. 

 

 

I do smoke cannabis recreationally and have found beautiful spiritual inspiration whilst feeling its effects but nothing beats a high given to us by that of nature. 

[Jeff]

15 minutes ago, LousyLaoTzu said:

 

Interesting discussion so far,  we're met with two sides of opinion.  

 

I've heard trance like states induced from certain narcotics, a trance that would lead a person down the  path of self enlightenment.  Yet as another person has stated already too much snd it becomes a hindrance. 

 

When it becomes necessary to reach these states it becomes sort of a crutch doesn't it? It becomes an attachment.  Something that will keep us further from the Tao. 

 

I do smoke cannabis recreationally and have found beautiful spiritual inspiration whilst feeling its effects but nothing beats a high given to us by that of nature. 

 

While as I said earlier, the experience may be useful in opening things up a little, I think it is misleading to state any form of narcotic leads someone down the path Self enlightenment. Narcotics and their use effectively limit the level (or state) of potential mental clarity/consciousness that one can access. Ask any truly advanced spiritual practioner about their experience with things like cannabis (or mushrooms) and they will tell you how they just make your body feel heavy, weighed down unbalance the energy body. Yes, you may have a cool 3rd eye type experience and temporarily quiet a normally noisy mind a little, but it is no where near the same thing as true clarity.

[MooNiNite]

6 hours ago, LousyLaoTzu said:

This is both a question and a topic of debate in which I invite the rest of the Daobums; Do you think the use of herbs,  liquors,  and other forms of drugs/narcotics are dangerous to our spirituality or do you believe it could aid it  by providing a peculiar and unique point of view you wouldn't see otherwise? 

 

LSD or Mushrooms can re-center a person into their brainstem and quiet their cerebrum, allowing for an awakening experience. The very same type of wakefulness that spirituality strives to achieve naturally.

 

So, yes, mind altering substances are very important and have served as tools for initiation since the beginning of time. 

[silent thunder]

at some point... everything must be transcended. 

our body, our mind...

 

Even our beloved meditations.

 

 

[ljazztrumpet]

16 hours ago, silent thunder said:

at some point... everything must be transcended. 

our body, our mind...

 

Even our beloved meditations.

 

 

Great point ST. I haven't known anyone who has done any type of psychedelics, or other drugs, that has had any permanent shifts in consciousness. They always seem to go back to their 'baseline' consciousness. I think if I was in some type of indigenous tribe where certain drugs were used as part of a person's development in raising their consciousness, it would be a different story. Around my area, in spiritual healing circles, Ayahuasca is big right now. I haven't done it yet and haven't sought it out either, since the people I know who have used it said they didn't derive any permanent shifts from it. Just some cool experiences at the time.

 

I was in a spiritual healing group for several years in NYC.. There were a lot of medical doctors in it because they would verify healings whenever possible. I read a good amount of healing reports where people would come to a meeting addicted to strong drugs (I mean like heroin and the like) and, sometimes, after absorbing the energy in the meeting, they would leave and be cured of the addiction. I'm talking about they would wake up the next morning and forget to 'shoot up' or whatever! If you are addicted to strong drugs, that very idea is usually considered ridiculous, as it's always the first thing on your mind. 

 

This is why I usually recommend that people who self-medicate, and don't have dependents, to do their spiritual practice and let the desire for the drug their addicted to fall away on it's own. I think that any practice that resonates with a person and is focused on opening the heart to an all-encompassing love can do this. Also, some people who feel depressed or somesuch similar state, may need some type of drugs to motivate them into spiritual practice. Just to stay in a good, positive frame of mind. One mistake I have seen people make that have some type of addiction to a drug is that they start up a new spiritual practice and think they need to quit the drug they're addicted to 'cold turkey'.. But, many times, what happens is, then, the person loses the motivation to do the practice!

 

Obviously it's far better to not crave a substance that you were formally addicted to rather than to use your willpower to fight against the urge to not do something you really want to do. I've seen this happen a number of times with people over the years in healing circles - where a person just loses the desire for an addictive substance that was harming them. But I've also known a few people, and read about a good many, who have crossed over from self-medicating. It's usually a great way to go because you just fall asleep. But that's why I feel anyone with dependents in their lives (like kids/pets/etc.) to seek out AA/NA programs as well. Obviously, in these cases, a person would want to try to do everything in their power to stop using the addictive substance that could kill them. 

[Orion]

I think drugs can be an essential consciousness expansion tool on the path, but they eventually outlive their usefulness.

 

I used to take LSD a lot and I owe a big part of my "quantum leap" to the realizations I had while using it. I feel that entheogens have been put there in nature to help us evolve.

 

But the downside... how can I explain this...

 

When you develop spiritual pathways on your own, without substances, you form delicate connections and there is a lot more subtlety. Taking a drug turns up the volume and the intensity, and blasts the whole system wide open -- every channel, every pathway. It makes everything louder. All subtlety is lost. The LSD trips I used to value, started to give me anxiety attacks because once the high wore off it felt like I had blasted all my hard work to smithereens.

 

To use an analogy... it's like turning off all the lights and letting your eyes adjust to the darkness. You see subtle energy, subtle forms. If you suddenly turn on a bright light and then turn it off again, you are night blind. You don't see anything. All you see is the light you just shone in your own face. To me, psychedelics are like this. LSD, ayahuasca, mushrooms, all of them. They cast a huge light on your global consciousness but in doing so they light up every pathway and turn it into a mono-form where there is no longer any uniqueness. It's why, to me, acid heads all end up sounding the same after a while. Same with pot heads. Same with ayahuasca people. The drugs are complex but ultimately they are just doing the same thing to everybody. No different than religion, or any other program.

 

Accept the program as part of your temporary growth but don't get stuck there. Don't settle for it. You are capable of so much more. I would say that psychedelics gave me what would've taken 40 years of sitting and meditating to realize. But I'm done with them now.

 

There are also those who are chasing the Divine through psychedelics, such that they begin to form a duality between their divine highs and their default-reality lows. I've met people who live for LSD and they shun what they consider to be the mundane world.

 

I believe psychedelics can break down old pathways, increase novelty, and show us amazing realities. But they are glimpses of potential that we have to develop and integrate the slow way, otherwise there is no real progress. If you're on the spiritual path because you love intensity, then maybe you should just keep doing drugs. But if you want to witness the subtle mysteries, you have to be willing to fully accept the moment as it is, no matter what state you are in, and develop insights through your own unique efforts and experiences.

 

I don't want or need the structures that drugs provide anymore. I have surpassed them. The last time I smoked pot I felt like I was constraining myself. I don't need their programming anymore. I used them as a trellis to help my consciousness grow, and now my garden is full. To go back to the trellis would make no sense at this point. I would prefer to sit in the dark silence and see what comes from the emptiness.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Orion

[ljazztrumpet]

Thanks for sharing this Orion. A lot of great stuff here. I haven't experimented so much with psychedelics to open spiritual consciousness for many of the reasons you mentioned. It's what I have observed a lot of the time with people who have experimented with them for 'too long' - that haven't transcended them. 

[LousyLaoTzu]

@Orion,  thank you so much for sharing that detailed,  intriguing and overwhelmingly beautiful story. 

 

 

Since posting this thread I've listened to everyone's thoughts and opinions and found that I agree.  I have stopped smoking pot as much,  found the same level of relaxation affter a cup of tea and a mere 10-15 minutes of meditation. 

 

Thank you all very much.  All of you are greatly appreciated. 

[Miffymog]

On 13/09/2017 at 10:56 PM, LousyLaoTzu said:

@Orion,  thank you so much for sharing that detailed,  intriguing and overwhelmingly beautiful story. 

 

 

Since posting this thread I've listened to everyone's thoughts and opinions and found that I agree.  I have stopped smoking pot as much,  found the same level of relaxation affter a cup of tea and a mere 10-15 minutes of meditation. 

 

Thank you all very much.  All of you are greatly appreciated. 

 

 

Wow - good stuff.

 

I was going to write this post a few days ago but didn't get round to it. Anyway, 6 months ago I stopped buying tea or coffee because I thought I was drinking too much of it. All that seemed to happen was that I missed my morning cup.

 

I've just started revising for some exams and decided to buy some tea and coffee again in order to give me that mental boost. And I have to say, it works. I get some really good study done after a strong cup of coffee and every thing seemed good.

 

I then went on a long bus journey to meet up with someone. On the way there, I really enjoyed just looking out the windows and looking at the scenery. But, on the return journey, half way through I started to crave a cup of coffee. Ok, this craving was not all that strong, but it was enough to take my mind off the pleasant scenery that was passing me by, and this was the price of my mild caffeine addiction.

 

When I thought about it a bit more, I realised that quite possibly in the past, I reckon I spent nearly all of my time looking forward to something that was going to happen later rather then just enjoying what I was doing just then.

 

And this is what a spiritual practice can help with, if you become a little more settled in yourself, you start to become more sensitive to the things that take you away from this state. For me, this is my mild addiction to caffeine. After this realisation, I threw out all my coffee as I always have that really strong, but I've kept my tea, as I don't want to go to far too soon.

 

[silent thunder]

3 minutes ago, Miffymog said:

 

 

Wow - good stuff.

 

I was going to write this post a few days ago but didn't get round to it. Anyway, 6 months ago I stopped buying tea or coffee because I thought I was drinking too much of it. All that seemed to happen was that I missed my morning cup.

 

I've just started revising for some exams and decided to buy some tea and coffee again in order to give me that mental boost. And I have to say, it works. I get some really good study done after a strong cup of coffee and every thing seemed good.

 

I then went on a long bus journey to meet up with someone. On the way there, I really enjoyed just looking out the windows and looking at the scenery. But, on the return journey, half way through I started to crave a cup of coffee. Ok, this craving was not all that strong, but it was enough to take my mind off the pleasant scenery that was passing me by, and this was the price of my mild caffeine addiction.

 

When I thought about it a bit more, I realised that quite possibly in the past, I reckon I spent nearly all of my time looking forward to something that was going to happen later rather then just enjoying what I was doing just then.

 

And this is what a spiritual practice can help with, if you become a little more settled in yourself, you start to become more sensitive to the things that take you away from this state. For me, this is my mild addiction to caffeine. After this realisation, I threw out all my coffee as I always have that really strong, but I've kept my tea, as I don't want to go to far too soon.

 

I recently caught the same distraction from the present moment happening to me on my ride home from the beach, only I was craving/thinking about getting home and sitting in emptiness and was missing the scenery.

 

Anything craved can be a distraction from presence.   Even meditation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ljazztrumpet]

36 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Anything craved can be a distraction from presence.   Even meditation.

 

I agree - this can even be applied to food, water, and air. Look at that cat Prahlad Jani who was in the news a few years back when they did all those tests on him. I guess he would be considered the 'ultimate breatharian' - He hasn't eaten or drunk anything for over 70 years now.

 

I've read some breatharian-type teachings that say, when you no longer need air you have overcome death and can go back and forth between the physical/non-physical. If anyone has already done this, I'm not aware of it - they certainly aren't going public about it! 

[allinone]

On ‎12‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 6:57 AM, Earl Grey said:

Spoiler

 

I will share a few insights regarding the use of drugs. My love for Rick Strassman, Carlos Castaneda, and Terence McKenna is a disclaimer I will make here and does not contradict the statements I am about to make.

 

From a Tibetan monk to a friend who asked about the use of psychedelics, he said that they don't condemn the use of drugs to reach higher states of consciousness, but he said, "You can get there fast, yes, but you didn't earn it." 

 

From a story of Ram Das meeting his guru in the Himalayas, he offered him some LSD, and when there was no response, he added higher and higher doses in the tabs. Suddenly, the guru's eyes rolled back and he collapsed. Ram Das was horrified, wondering if he had killed him, which quickly turned to laughter when the guru sat up and laughed. He told Ram Das, "Ah, very good, we have medicine like this, only much stronger down the valley; we've been using this for a long time. But we don't use it much because we can achieve higher and better states naturally through our yogic practice." 

 

From my teachers of styles from Tai Chi to Yi Quan and the few Qigong practices I do, this is specifically in regards to Zhan Zhuang: we are advised to refrain from alcohol 24 hours before and after due to blocking of the liver, and to abstain from sex because it closes the mingmen in the 24 hours before and after. Those rules are also encouraged to be broken anyway from time to time to develop something else I won't mention here as it is a school lesson. However, if a student does marijuana or any hard drug such as cocaine, he is recommended to refrain from practice for a minimum of 72 hours, because the marijuana alone can block oxygen when we get to a point where we can do standing practice for an hour or more. 

 

Interestingly enough, for a troublesome student we had, one teacher made him stand even more in spite of doing all that blow for a week, and it had the odd result of him quitting his habit because he enjoyed the high from standing in Zhan Zhuang practice more than snorting cocaine. 

 

Getting to the earlier teachers of McKenna, Strassman, and Castaneda, I believe the use of drugs can work for specific paths. For those that I have followed, they weren't outright condemned, they were just deemed unnecessary and not as effective as the practices themselves. What was important and stressed by everyone is that the drugs shouldn't be used by ourselves for fun, but in a ritualistic manner as the old practitioners did. 

 

In my Reiki 3 class, a classmate of mine with a heavy marijuana habit discovered the hard way why he shouldn't try to give Reiki's CKR symbol to a blunt: it took one puff for him to have a bad trip and be scared of toking up for a few months. He was coughing, wheezing, and full of uncomfortable thoughts and anxieties the whole time. 

 

A student of mine used to be so heavy into drugs that they would https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedball_(drug), but when they joined the practice, they said no other high can compare to the meditation of the Taoist techniques we specialize in. 

 

 

 

i think it is good thinking. If i drink alcohol i waste three days. I may get insights while drunk and time after but these are fruits from past cultivation.

If no retention of sensual energies while sober, then meditation is useless anyway because of habit of relaxing you channel sensual energies what does the same what alcohol does blocks you.

 

Get affected then lose mind and have a urge what can't be avoided, will ignore all advice and just follow the urge.

 

Meditation for me is i get to see the urge and defeat it. So abusing substances and no-retention while sober, is counterproductive.

There is exception over time getting rid of urges can notice urges in more diciplineless environments, like being with sensual people you have more hard time stay sober.

[allinone]

17 hours ago, ljazztrumpet said:

I agree - this can even be applied to food, water, and air. Look at that cat Prahlad Jani who was in the news a few years back when they did all those tests on him. I guess he would be considered the 'ultimate breatharian' - He hasn't eaten or drunk anything for over 70 years now.

 

I've read some breatharian-type teachings that say, when you no longer need air you have overcome death and can go back and forth between the physical/non-physical. If anyone has already done this, I'm not aware of it - they certainly aren't going public about it! 

 

Quote

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food

Food is any substance^[1] consumed to provide nutritional support for an organism.

 

--------

Its a support, so in certain circumstances we need less food in other we need more, but we don't need food essentially.

Also i still like to feed the billion+ inhabitants of a body.

Edited September 16, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

On ‎15‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 9:09 PM, silent thunder said:

Even meditation

 

what is your definition of meditation?

So you not wash your hands after taking a dump, because you think you are done?

Getting bad news you get no contamination?

So how much daily activities you do are meditateable what you don't meditate.

 

On ‎15‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 9:09 PM, silent thunder said:

Anything craved can be a distraction from presence.

 

there is main activity in mind anyway, there is extra effort needed to get into the eyes to see what your hands are doing or seeing you are sunbathing on a beach, it is channeled that you see yourself in a beach and it isn't the meditation end. There is no present moment, it is a blanket term for to point out in short what it feels like, but there is much more to it.

[silent thunder]

5 hours ago, allinone said:

 

what is your definition of meditation?

So you not wash your hands after taking a dump, because you think you are done?

Getting bad news you get no contamination?

So how much daily activities you do are meditateable what you don't meditate.

 

 

there is main activity in mind anyway, there is extra effort needed to get into the eyes to see what your hands are doing or seeing you are sunbathing on a beach, it is channeled that you see yourself in a beach and it isn't the meditation end. There is no present moment, it is a blanket term for to point out in short what it feels like, but there is much more to it.

ok

[LousyLaoTzu]

5 hours ago, allinone said:

 

what is your definition of meditation?

So you not wash your hands after taking a dump, because you think you are done?

Getting bad news you get no contamination?

So how much daily activities you do are meditateable what you don't meditate.

 

 

there is main activity in mind anyway, there is extra effort needed to get into the eyes to see what your hands are doing or seeing you are sunbathing on a beach, it is channeled that you see yourself in a beach and it isn't the meditation end. There is no present moment, it is a blanket term for to point out in short what it feels like, but there is much more to it.

It's interesting to see so many takes on philosophy, spirituality, hygiene (qigong, martial arts, mediation, etc) and the like.

[Limahong]

On 9/12/2017 at 11:57 AM, Earl Grey said:

From a Tibetan monk ... "You can get there fast, yes, but you didn't earn it."

 

Hi Earl Grey,

 

This Tibetan thought applies to many things.

When we are on fast tracks, we may miss out on the journey to get 'there'.

So will we be able to get 'there' again? Perhaps an altered 'there'.

Why? Because we may be more mindless than mindful.

After getting 'there', what is it like to get back? Fulfilled?

 

We (l)earn something by learning the ropes.

If we get 'there' too fast, we may not (l)earn anything.

Things (l)earned are for keeps.

When we (l)earn our ABC's well, we take on good roots.

 

How about the roots of our food in Nature?

Analogies of fast tracking in Nature - chemical fertilizers, genetic modification ...

The dire consequences are ...

 

We are now 'here' in a 'nurtured' world.

Can we retraced our paths back to Nature through Taoism?

Is permaculture rooted in Taoism?

 

- LimA

Edited September 26, 2017 by Limahong
Correct errors.

[Chá Rén 茶人]

Substances have a complex relationship with the human physiological system. I get subtle psychoactive effects from old age, wild-produced tea for example, because the roots are well developed in such plants and able to draw deep into the fertile Yunnan soil for rare and complex minerals, elements, etc. Taiwanese tea draws various elements from the ocean mist that forms a fog in the high mountains. It is well known that these teas have greater "cha qi" or tea energy than say your daily Lipton black. You are also more likely to develop what is known as "tea tipsy" from older tea trees, wild trees, or high mountain trees, especially when steeped strongly or for many infusions. 

 

As a side note for cannabis, it has historical uses in Taoism as well. The Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing (Divine Farmer's Classic of Materia Medica), attributed to the God Shen Nong, says cannabis seeds allow one to see spirits. I believe it has a warning of 100 days as well, going off memory. 

 

And of course there are many stories of old drunken Taoist hermits and such. I think the point is to use them sparingly as the Tao calls you to. Total abstinence is letting them control you as much as total abuse.

And we all have our own nature to consider. My German uncle may be able to down 12 beers and be fine, whereas my grandmother probably should never touch the stuff. 

 

Grain(s) may even have a mild opiate-type effect, hence the old Taoist bigu style diets. 

[Chá Rén 茶人]

I would also add most substances are gonna lead to liver qi stagnation and reduced jing with long term use, even one considered medically benign like cannabis. 

[Chá Rén 茶人]

Except from Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing