Hakutsuru

[Nungali]

Is anyone familiar with this ?    Instructor sprung it on  me  last week   ( I knew of it, and had 'followed along', now he says I should know it, so I learn it over the weekend and yesterday ).   But it is unlike any other hakatsuru I have seen .

 

Supposedly it was developed by Bushi Matsamura , some say it came from Nabe Matsamura (his student)  then to Hohan Soken. But although that is the path of the style I practice, it is also unlike Hohan Soken version.

 

Then I heard, in this tradition there is a 'sho' and 'dai'  ( 1 and 2 ) versions.    Maybe  what I learnt is one or the other and the one I learnt is different from that on old videos ?

 

- I cant show a film of it as I cant find one of this form.    Basically (and if Bushi did compose it ) it seems to be a blend of some  white crane moves and  techniques from other kata all put together ( Rohai, Kusanku, Gojushiho, )   and some rather 'inexplicable' moves '   (some say it was originally an exercise for  development  of power balance distance, timing, etc )

Edited September 12, 2017 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Damn ... typo in the title (and cant fix it )

 

Haka tsuru !    

[Kar3n]

28 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Damn ... typo in the title (and cant fix it )

 

Haka tsuru !    

Edit the first post of the topic and you will be able to edit the title.

 

[Nungali]

Thanks ... now all I have to do is sit back and wait for the avalanche of replies !     

[Andrei]

19 hours ago, Nungali said:

some rather 'inexplicable' moves '

 

Iain Abernethy, check his channel on youtube practicalkatabunkai, this guy is amazing in finding bunkai applications for any crazy inexplicable move in any kata. I quit karate longtime ago because I couldn't find any practical application in the kata moves, but if I would have found this guy I would probably still train in karate.

[Michael Sternbach]

On 12.9.2017 at 2:58 AM, Nungali said:

Is anyone familiar with this ? 

 

Is anyone familiar with what? 

 

Quote

Instructor sprung it on  me  last week   ( I knew of it, and had 'followed along', now he says I should know it, so I learn it over the weekend and yesterday ).   But it is unlike any other hakatsuru I have seen .

 

Supposedly it was developed by Bushi Matsamura , some say it came from Nabe Matsamura (his student)  then to Hohan Soken. But although that is the path of the style I practice, it is also unlike Hohan Soken version.

 

Then I heard, in this tradition there is a 'sho' and 'dai'  ( 1 and 2 ) versions.    Maybe  what I learnt is one or the other and the one I learnt is different from that on old videos ?

 

- I cant show a film of it as I cant find one of this form.    Basically (and if Bushi did compose it ) it seems to be a blend of some  white crane moves and  techniques from other kata all put together ( Rohai, Kusanku, Gojushiho, )   and some rather 'inexplicable' moves '   (some say it was originally an exercise for  development  of power balance distance, timing, etc )

 

There are a number of different versions of this kata, some of them apparently not going back to the lineage Bushi Matsumura - Nabe Matsumura - Hohan Sokan.

 

For one thing, Shuri's Hakutsuru is different from Naha's Hakutsuru. There is a Goju-ryu version, which is no longer part of the style's syllabus though and only shown in some schools to a select few students. Whereas the Shorin school that are teaching a variation of it don't regard it as a secret form today.

 

Kakuyoku, a modern form by famous Shotokan instructor Asai Tetsuhiko, was probably also derived from the Hakutsuru form.

 

There is also a version of Hakutsuru that was brought from Fujian to Okinawa by the Chinese Go Kenki. It is being practised as Hakucho in Shito-ryu today. It contains no kicks. However, it teaches pokes with straight fingers and sweeping strikes by the arms, which resemble a crane's flaps.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

On ‎13‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 7:01 AM, Andrei said:

 

Iain Abernethy, check his channel on youtube practicalkatabunkai, this guy is amazing in finding bunkai applications for any crazy inexplicable move in any kata. I quit karate longtime ago because I couldn't find any practical application in the kata moves, but if I would have found this guy I would probably still train in karate.

 

Thanks Andrei, I will have a look ( I have checked him before on other matters, but I doubt he knows or shows this rare form, )

 

What you mentioned is an area of interest for me ;  since my tradition comes down  through Hohan Soken   the 'traditional ' teachings of the Bunkai , as opposed to 'finding them' . I have experience in that, and some peoples 'findings' are crazy . In the  book, 'The Secret Of Shotokan' they have a rather good ;list of 'Bunkai tests',  things you can use to test someone's  idea of an application.

 

But, in many cases (and I assume that was the problem with the people that taught you ) the bunkai was unknown or invented. Inventing an application is fine .... if they make sense, a lot don't !   In my early days of strict Japanese style karate, it was frowned upon to ask some questions.   One thing I have learnt since, is that a whole mass of karate ,practitioners do not seem to understand what is going on .  So when I say , inexplicable , it is not without a lot of experience with 'bunkai'

 

Anyway, I will offer up two very good vids to explain what I mean ..   Dillman ran into Hohan Soken once  .... and got 'taught' some of the 'proper' bunkai    (     poor guy  )  .

 

 

 

 

 

And some modern applications :

( One aspect is, it seems that the teachings of technique and kata and bunkai are rigid and formal , but as we know, no one fights like that   ( except in rule restricted karate competition and movies.), a fight is more wild, scrappy, unpredictable, tricky, psychological, 'anything goes' , etc. The form seems the 'blank form'  the skeleton, that which the basis is drawn from, in a fight one applies them as they can from a wide variety of different circumstances. . )

 

I think the film below demonstrates this point  ( although MMA is still a restricted by rules fight )

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Is anyone familiar with what? 

 

HUh ? 

 

Ummm ... all the stuff you are talking about below   ..........     

 

or, if you prefer .......   the thread title  - Hakatsuru  

 

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

There are a number of different versions of this kata, some of them apparently not going back to the lineage Bushi Matsumura - Nabe Matsumura - Hohan Sokan.

 

There must be as they appear so different .

 

 

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

For one thing, Shuri's Hakutsuru is different from Naha's Hakutsuru.

 

Aha !  Thanks, that probably significant .    I don't suppose there is a record of that anywhere, that explains the differences ?

 

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

There is a Goju-ryu version, which is no longer part of the style's syllabus though and only shown in some schools to a select few students. Whereas the Shorin school that are teaching a variation of it don't regard it as a secret form today.

 

Kakuyoku, a modern form by famous Shotokan instructor Asai Tetsuhiko, was probably also derived from the Hakutsuru form.

 

There is also a version of Hakutsuru that was brought from Fujian to Okinawa by the Chinese Go Kenki. It is being practised as Hakucho in Shito-ryu today. It contains no kicks. However, it teaches pokes with straight fingers and sweeping strikes by the arms, which resemble a crane's flaps.

 

This one has 9 kicks  in it ,    and six unusual moves as if you are holding a ball in front of you, on hand on top one under, and you let the ball go, and fling your arms out to the side.  3 times in horse stance, cross step to the side into another horse stance and do it 3 times again.     Before that part, , you shuffle quickly backwards 3 steps as if you are holding a ball and rotating it in front of you  three times .  

 

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Hope this helps.

 

Yeah, thanks, I will check on it,  the Shuri  / Naha forms if I can find stuff on that. I doubt it would be like the goju forms. The Shorin forms I have seen are nothing like it at all. Its nothing like the Chinese forms I have seen.  Hakucho is nothing like it.

 

I guess it could be a case of the sho and dai versions, and one became popular and the other ...... ? 

 

Oh well,   its a fun form to practice , more flowing and circular than the others . 

[Michael Sternbach]

48 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Thanks Andrei, I will have a look ( I have checked him before on other matters, but I doubt he knows or shows this rare form, )

 

What you mentioned is an area of interest for me ;  since my tradition comes down  through Hohan Soken   the 'traditional ' teachings of the Bunkai , as opposed to 'finding them' . I have experience in that, and some peoples 'findings' are crazy . In the  book, 'The Secret Of Shotokan' they have a rather good ;list of 'Bunkai tests',  things you can use to test someone's  idea of an application.

 

But, in many cases (and I assume that was the problem with the people that taught you ) the bunkai was unknown or invented. Inventing an application is fine .... if they make sense, a lot don't !   In my early days of strict Japanese style karate, it was frowned upon to ask some questions.   One thing I have learnt since, is that a whole mass of karate ,practitioners do not seem to understand what is going on .  So when I say , inexplicable , it is not without a lot of experience with 'bunkai'

 

Anyway, I will offer up two very good vids to explain what I mean ..   Dillman ran into Hohan Soken once  .... and got 'taught' some of the 'proper' bunkai    (     poor guy  )  .

 

 

 

 

 

And some modern applications :

( One aspect is, it seems that the teachings of technique and kata and bunkai are rigid and formal , but as we know, no one fights like that   ( except in rule restricted karate competition and movies.), a fight is more wild, scrappy, unpredictable, tricky, psychological, 'anything goes' , etc. The form seems the 'blank form'  the skeleton, that which the basis is drawn from, in a fight one applies them as they can from a wide variety of different circumstances. . )

 

I think the film below demonstrates this point  ( although MMA is still a restricted by rules fight )

 

 

 

This is a similar video like the one above: Demonstrating that the Bubishi actually works in application.

 

 

Regarding your further questions, I will see what I can do.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

Thanks Michael .... siome of that  ....    Now... there   is some  'Okinawan wrestling '    ! 

 

This  hakatsuru form is pretty old, judged by some of the bunkai I do know in it ;   one of them is, pushing the others defensive guard down with a circular arm sweeping blocking motion, while the other reaches in to pull the 'comb' out of the others top knot in their hair, retract it, pull back, and push it into the others throat.   People don't usually have top knots with combs in them nowadays  .     

 

In our chinto version I was picked up for doing the 'double front flying kick' wrong .... I thought they were doing it wrong, the first one sweeps upward and is a 'lazy type of flick' and the second goes forward with the toes extended. It was explained to me that the first kick hits up at the large straw hat brim ( that Okinawans traditionally wore ) tied on around the chin, this makes the head jerk back and  exposes the throat for a 2nd  kick into the throat with the big toe.

 

Very archaic forms .

[Nungali]

 

@   2:45

 

 

 

[Nungali]

Urrrgh ... I just found a 'mei' version  

 

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXEPSGkiRfc

 

This isn't it, but some moves seem similar.

 

(commentator mentions   "  .....  many of the other Matsamuru White Crane katas .... "

 

How many are they ?   or   were they ?

 

and why has knowledge of these form and  variations virtually disappeared ? 

[Nungali]

 

Aha !  Finally   @ 25:15

 

This is the closest one yet.  It is basically this one with the moves done differently .

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Nungali