Mair 12 Heaven abd Earth

[Marblehead]

This is the first of three consecutive "heaven" chapters; it is significant that the syncretic, final chapter (33) is the fourth in the series.  The authors of these four chapters were probably responsible for the original editing of the Chuang Tzu anthology.

 

Whereas Heaven was the favored cosmic concept of the Confucians, the Tao (Way) is obviously preferred by the Taoists and a nod is made in this chapter to the greatness of the Way.  It is striking, however, that the author attempts to sanction virtue, the sage ruler, filial piety, and other Confucian concerns that Master Chuang ridiculed at every opportunity.  We are thus confronted with the peculiar prospect of a superficial Taoist rhetoric being used to propagate a basically Confucian agenda.

[Stosh]

If he feels the chapters have been spun Confucian, they belong in the Confucian section. 

[Marblehead]

15 minutes ago, Stosh said:

If he feels the chapters have been spun Confucian, they belong in the Confucian section. 

It will be difficult to be unbiased here as he (Mair) has already stated how he is going to translate the mentioned chapters.

 

But then, there is nothing preventing us from compare/contrast Mair's translation with some other translation for the purpose of clarity.

 

[Stosh]

39 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

It will be difficult to be unbiased here as he (Mair) has already stated how he is going to translate the mentioned chapters.

 

But then, there is nothing preventing us from compare/contrast Mair's translation with some other translation for the purpose of clarity.

 

Then it would be helpful to warning-label each that is being compared to the intended version, as follows,, 

"These misleading perversions are presented for comparison purposes , and should not be considered the intent of the original author."  

[Marblehead]

That word "perversions" might be a little strong.

 

[Stosh]

Yeah I know it would be taken that way. But it really is the correct word. And I find it to be very blatant obfuscation, to say, 'I know this has been messed with , and doesnt reflect the original intent , but I plan to give this corrupted version equal footing, and then post a 'syncretic' version in case its obvious. '

 

per·ver·sion

pərˈvərZHən/

noun1.

1. the alteration of something from its original course, meaning, or state to a distortion or corruption of what was first intended.

    

   Syncretism

    is a union or attempted fusion of different religions, cultures, or philosophies — like Halloween, which has both Christian and pagan roots, or the combination of Aristotelian philosophy with the belief system of the early punk rock practitioners.

[Will]

Wait, so what is the problem with Mair's interpretation of this section? (I haven't read any other translation, so I honestly don't know)

[Stosh]

19 minutes ago, Will said:

Wait, so what is the problem with Mair's interpretation of this section? (I haven't read any other translation, so I honestly don't know)

He concludes that the chapters as presented, are massaged to represent Confucian ideas, rather than those of the author from which the base material is .. borrowed.  I feel its confusing for those trying to get a handle on what was meant originally. And once the ideas are misapprehended , one ends up with more conflict about the content ,than if you had presented them as clearly modified by Confucians .

Mair may feel he is being ,, fair,  to present whatever versions are attended to by Chinese people, rather than to constrain himself to The authors intent . 

And I think we are not ready for a comparison, until we are on the same page about the original meanings.