Why is there so much disrespect in the Taoist tradition?

[Cameron]

I think this post might be a long time coming.

 

It's almost a seperate religious or sociological study. But those of us who have spent time in the Taoist tradition over the years online have seen it again and again.

 

Why is there so much disrespect in the Taoist traditon?

 

First it might be better to phrase the question "Why is there so much disrespect in students of the Taoist tradition?"

 

Pretty much a consistent string I have seen over the years is a sort of superiority complex people into Tao develop about their teachers. Actually, someone just recently highlited the issue in a recent post saying "My teacher can beat up your teacher."

 

But I think the issue runs deeper than that .And rather than resorting to immaturity or anger I would like to take a critical, objective look at this issue.

 

I am sure everyone will have excellent feedback and a different perspective. Here are 4 main reasons I can think of.

 

1. Taoists tend to work heavily with sexual energy. For men, this excess sexual energy can become volitile and unbalanced and then express itself in an unbalanced or angry way.

 

2. It's a Chinese cultural issue. Chinese test and challenge eachother as part of their culture. Disrespecting and insulting another school has some sort of cultural significance. Students of Chinese teachers perhaps pick up these bad habits from their teacher.

 

3. Taoism has a strong connection to martial artists. What do many martial artists like to do? Fight! Very simple(Though I like to think more evolved martial artists go beyond the ego, that is really a high level, we all have ego, as martial artist myself I can relate to this).

 

4. It's an American issue. Most high level Taoist Masters are perhaps not disrespectful. It is the western students who learn from "The Real Taoist Master" and then brag about how great their teacher and lineage is and their teacher or lineage is far better than someone elses.

 

I will say I have not heard any disrespect from two Taoist teachers I have met, Ken Cohen and Max Christenson. In the 2 times I have met both of them their behavior and integrity was to be admired and both seem to have integrated energy practices and good behavior and virtue. I am sure other people have had positive experiences with Taoist teachers that don't have a disrespectful tone so I will add a 5th possible reason.

 

5. It all has to do with the mode of communication(internet) and people would be less disrespectful if face to face.

[Procurator]

 

I will say I have not heard any disrespect from two Taoist teachers I have met, Ken Cohen and Max Christenson.

do they also do barmitsvas?

[Mantra68]

All very true.

 

I think a part of the problem is that it is human nature to aggressively defend your own world, be that your family, country, or knowledge.

 

All I know is that we always show respect for other schools, because we understand that all is learning and the fact that you are even looking into spiritual evolution is a very good and not so common thing.

 

More of this is better.

 

If there is a new technique that we come across, we try it to see the effect and either incorporate it or let it go.

 

Many schools have much to offer.

 

Max even still learns from others. We ended the year by spending the weekend with the highest known Tibetan spiritual master. He is a true Mahasiddha and spent over an hour meeting with Max about Kunlun and Rainbow Body.

 

We are all still recovering from that meeting. Things are very different for us now. The Mahasiddha recognized the Kunlun as a very effective method that he wants us to share with his people. The Ngondro and other Tibetan techniques are things we will incorporate into our practice.

 

Cross pollination is a very healthy thing.

 

If you can back off from an arrogant position you allow new enriching possibilities that will take you further than you could have gotten alone.

 

We never stop learning.

[Cameron]

do they also do barmitsvas?

 

 

Ok. Barmitzvas. lol.

 

Well, Ken is Jewish by birth so he would be the first to ask that I guess

[Stigweard]

Treading the surface,

Division breeds contention,

One ocean, one mind.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Sifu Stigweard

[Mal]

 

Countless paths to climb.

But I travel one alone.

It must be best!

[Cameron]

Also, maybe it is a scholorly issue and am sure everyone will have a different take.

 

But do you think the blending that took place between Taoism and Buddhism in China took place for a good reason? Perhaps Buddhism had alot to offer to improve on what Taoists were doing and Tao stuff had alot to offer what the Buddhists were doing.

 

It seems the teachers I have been most attracted to in Tao like Max or Ken are lineage Taoists and also very Buddhist(Max even being a recongized "Tulku")

 

I don't know. Just seems the Taoist training by itself tends to leave huge gaps in ones development. But the Taoist training can help things along and prevent Buddhist meditation from becoming stagnant.

 

And I guess the Chinese also emphasized Conficism which appears to be cultivating ones behavior and interaction in society as a mode of awakening.

 

I think Ken says in China people blend all 3 and consider them complementary.

[Stigweard]

I think Ken says in China people belend all 3 and consider complementary.

 

There is an old Chinese saying:

 

Confusciousism is my cloak,

Buddhism is my cane,

Taoism is my sandal.

[Stigweard]

 

Countless paths to climb.

But I travel one alone.

It must be best!

 

[WhiteTiger]

All I got to say about this... I sometimes go back and forth not realizing fully that I'm saying something is really wrong. While I might specially entering into a martial arts place (DO NOT JUDGE) But I do realize often times lots of things that are different and from what i learned incorrect. Personally i think my teaching of Chinese Martial Arts isn't very good one, ridged and different, while my understanding of the way it isn't ridged at all, but yet flowing. The softer it is, the more gentle it is, the more it is like water making valleys (a path) through mountains.

 

But I must say almost every martial artist I've met and learned a few things here and there, they all do make fun of others or disrespect other martial artists. To me this is one key thing when I see makes them a bad martial artist... no matter how good the teaching is if the teacher does this disrespectful thing i immediately flee from learning from them again.

 

I have some serious issues... (as of late... or for a few months before I came on this forum) I can tell you I never always had these issues. The way I must come across when one talks about something they don't understand as if they understand I feel the need to come in a clear things up. This way might be slightly vicious and i would also like to apologize for it. I am currently trying not to do it again. Even though it might not come across very strong it is still very wrong. I know this post was not blaming me. But i felt a need just to say this. Get it out of my system, and explain it to everyone else that I do keep good practices in mind, and try and become a better person even though I'm not necessarily in a better place.

Edited January 10, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[rain]

...........

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[Cameron]

whats up? who disses who? what martial inner outer? what? ??

 

what about your compulsive ranking lists btw? are they cosher kosher???

 

 

Hey I have turned over a new leaf this year and am trying to be a uniter not a divider.

 

[WhiteTiger]

whats up? who disses who? what martial inner outer? what? ??

 

what about your compulsive ranking lists btw? are they cosher kosher???

 

Whatever you mean by that totally went over my head.

 

You asked me "who Disses who?" if you would like to know I might be willing to tell you privately. Some where internal martial artists, some were external martial artists and some were both. What do you mean what about my compulsive ranking list btw? and Kosher? I'll remember to laugh later But as for publically saying certain teachers names (teachers that aren't mentioned on this forum thank god, from what I've read in all the posts so far) But there are many. Almost every martial artist teacher I have met. I often ask when asking to find a new teacher, is the person extremely high spiritually. Most people say yes, meaning his skills are very high, his Qigong practice is very good, maybe even Nei Gong, or Internal Alchemy. Which of course by the time I totally flee from them they didn't teach me any of that that stuff on a deeper level, (where they impart some good teachings to me) I was just scratching the outer surface. But yeah, as if there all fighters and braking me down.

 

In my personal opinion, what i have practiced in the past has been so in my own privacy. Almost 100% around me were not peaceful people. That were trying to do harm in some sort of way. Lead me off my path. How do you trust these people like this. You want to learn the good stuff people have to teach you but can I bare the bad stuff they bring to the table, or try and get me involved with. Its like a consistent battle with almost every single person i meet. Even if I'm doing something wrong... there not in the bad at all, they can't let me learn from my own mistakes? Of course if I'm completely in the wrong they shouldn't support my burden, do they want to eventually fall like me? In my personal prospective I truly believe 100% people should not brake you down, but give you building block to strengthen yourself so then you can let go of whatever bad tools you are wielding. Maybe this isn't the right way and I'm completely wrong, and thats the answer why I am currently suffering. But let it be known at least i don't try and balance it out. So i can live with myself as a person that does continuously bad things to whatever small degree or big degree it could possibly be.

Edited January 10, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[Cameron]

I think she was talking to me

 

I had some silly behavior going on last year..well..the last 3 months of last year.

 

But that is all over and am trying to be a uniter not a divider like Barack Obama.

[Cameron]

Seriously, I think one of the main things that is a shame is what we miss out on by having these sorts of attitudes.

 

I mean, could you imagine if Taoist students and teachers really had mutual respect and could freely exchange knowledge without worrying?

 

Probably the lack of communication has something to do with it.

 

Actually, on that small video of Max talking on Kunlunbliss he talks about this exact subject. How people from Kunlun don't like Mao Shan because they are into Magic. People from Wudang don't like Kunlun because it's esoteric etc.

 

I could be getting the order of the schools and who they like or don't like wrong just using as an example.

 

So, if it has been going on like that in China for thousands of years probably it's not that big a mystery why it translates over here.

 

Ultimatly, things are the way they are.

[三江源]

Do women say "my teacher can beat your teacher?"

 

 

or just the boys?

[rex]

The road to truth is long and lined the entire way with annoying bastards.

[rain]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[rain]

Do women say "my teacher can beat your teacher?"

or just the boys?

 

 

i think that stopped in kindergarten

 

 

and ohhh..5 min later after cruising some other thread..i see what the fuss is about.

l

have no time for it.

 

hugs to all

Edited January 10, 2008 by rain

[rain]

We never stop learning.

 

 

 

YES!

 

aren't we lucky?! i feel so lucky!

 

have a great day.

[WhiteTiger]

Actually, on that small video of Max talking on Kunlunbliss he talks about this exact subject. How people from Kunlun don't like Mao Shan because they are into Magic. People from Wudang don't like Kunlun because it's esoteric etc.

 

I could be getting the order of the schools and who they like or don't like wrong just using as an example.

 

Wang Liping was taught by three Taoist teachers, each specializing in separate things. Jiang i believe was also taught by three different teachers, Wang Liping wasn't the only one. In fact (don't qoute me on this) if my understanding is correct i think maybe other teachers from another system ended up teaching Jiang also. I find it very smart at the same time weird with the fact that people from one system don't like another but yet they are willing to end up teaching an inheritor.

[三江源]

i think that stopped in kindergarten

........

l

have no time for it.

 

hugs to all

 

 

there's your answer, boys.

[Taiji Bum]

I haven't seem much conflict between different Taoists, except here a little bit. Being disrespectful in a funny way however is a staple of Taoist stories. Maybe those disconcerted by the disrespect in the Taoist tradition are really just disconcerted by the lack of humor?

 

So a Taoist, Buddhist and Confucian walk into a bar....

[三江源]

I haven't seem much conflict between different Taoists, except here a little bit. Being disrespectful in a funny way however is a staple of Taoist stories. Maybe those disconcerted by the disrespect in the Taoist tradition are really just disconcerted by the lack of humor?

 

So a Taoist, Buddhist and Confucian walk into a bar....

 

 

Taoist /Zen humour would be so refreshing, but no, Darin, this is about bickering boys again.

ultra tedious, and I dont even read it!

[Taiji Bum]

What did the Taoist say to the hot dog vendor?

 

Make me one with everything.